contemporary Black Brothers
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@JNV33 said
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@Froclown said
"Science is not opinion in any way. It collects objective data. "I appreciate your idealism. But for someone so enamoured with materialism and objectivity, you sure have your head in the clouds!"
Actually, he doesn't believe in clouds, only in physiology. Want to rephrase your remark in physiological language?
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@JNV33 said
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@Froclown said
"Science is not opinion in any way. It collects objective data. "I appreciate your idealism. But for someone so enamoured with materialism and objectivity, you sure have your head in the clouds!"
Actually, he doesn't believe in clouds, only in physiology. Want to rephrase your remark in physiological language?
"Well, that doesn't make any sense that would mean he had is head...
Oh! never mind...Love and Will
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Most often Crowley meant by he is the reincarnation of such and such, that the person's writings and works were a strong influence in him and he was continuing their work.
In the same way we might say Einstein was the reincarnation of newton.
I leave the auto correct on, because I mistype as it is, this keyboard miss keys, I don't know how to spell some words, and I can't use a back arrow to fix words, trying to put the cursed where I want in iPad, makes me want to pull my hair out. So its easier to just deal with the autocorrect.
When I get my Linux system back, you can expect my normal level of mistyping due only to a neurological mapping mix up between my fingers and thoughts.
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@Froclown said
"Most often Crowley meant by he is the reincarnation of such and such, that the person's writings and works were a strong influence in him and he was continuing their work. "
No, that simply isn't true. He was not speaking of influence. His experience was that he had their memories and that there was continuity of existence from "them" to "him."
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@Froclown said
"Most often Crowley meant by he is the reincarnation of such and such, that the person's writings and works were a strong influence in him and he was continuing their work. "
Now he KNOWS what Crowley "meant" as opposed to what was written.
Froclown, show your sources.
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Excuse me, but wasn't this thread actually supposed to be about Black Brothers?
Why don't we start a "Froclown verses everyone else" thread; and that way we can clear up the rest of the forum for more balanced discussion?
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For the record: Actually I think that I can understand what froclown is about, although you seem to be very left brain heavy.
Personally I do not "believe" in psychic phenomena, I have repeatedly performed the practices of Liber E, and have honestly concluded that I myself have no clairvoyance or psychic abilities of that kind.
I have an uncle who dowses for water, he does not know how it works, but for him it works; maybe he could test this, but for him that seems pointless because he knows that for him it works (who has the how is careless of the why).
Yet despite my disbelief in spells, and wishing,and god, and spirits, and souls; and my inclination to every now and then decide that it's all bollocks, nonetheless things keep getting through my rationalist mindset.
My personal practice continues to bring forth little snippets of what i can only call personal growth, ( i think "enlightenment" is far too big a word) although i'm inclined to view all of it in the light of psychology as much as "spirituality" (I hate that word).So, in short, logically i'm with froclown, but in practice i'm quite happy suspending my disbelief if it gets results.
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Our unconscious mind picks up on patterns and subtle cues faster than out conscious mind can "put our finger on it"
There is a test where they show peoples heart rates increase before they take negative cards in a rigged card game, long before they are consciously aware of the deck being stacked. They unconscious mind picks up on the subtle differences in the deck design, before conscious awareness. Those people who were more Tuned into being aware of their heart rates, picked up on the way the game was rigged sooner than those with less awareness of heart rate.
The bodily stress state changes in many subtle ways, and the more aware of that we are, via practice and biofeedback back exercised like those in Liber E the better we are at realizing and acting on hunches that have not yet verbalized themselves in our conscious mind.
This explains "clairvoyance" in a perfectly physical way, no need to postulate unconfirmed forces, sprite, energies, etc.
And it shows a physical scientific benefit to those practices of magick like as those in liber E.
There may be other subtle unconscious physiology and such that the conscious mind might interpret as past life memory, giving one an edge in some way. Which justifies liber Thisarb.
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@Froclown said
" They unconscious mind picks up on the subtle differences in the deck design, before conscious awareness. Those people who were more Tuned into being aware of their heart rates, picked up on the way the game was rigged sooner than those with less awareness of heart rate. "
I'm sorry but that is a load of crap.
If I shuffle a deck of 78 cards any number of times I cannot possibly notice any "subtle differences" in the card design, not if it's the same pack every time.
You could , if pushed, postulate that one could unconsciously memorise the whereabouts of every card in the deck and therefore know exactly what card one was about to pull in one's unconscious mind.
But the fact that I more often than not failed to guess the correct card, shows that in my case this was not happening, it proved nothing and therefore this argument is purely academic.
I know that I am not Psychic, and I can live with that.
If you ask me, "subtle differences in decks of cards" as you put it, is merely clutching at straws, you yourself are not being scientific, but are more concerned with proving yourself right than with actually adhering to the scientific method.
I am sorry, but you have exposed yourself; although I am with you up to a point, in asserting that all of our tests and practices should be verifiable by scientific means, I part with you on the basis that you are in fact not practicing what you preach, but are more interested in making a point than in making progress.
And why is this? are you afraid to be wrong? are you afraid to be right?
What is it that you hold on to so desperately; your ace in the hole, the thing that makes you think that you know what is going on in the world?
And might I ask; why are you even on this forum? which is run by, and run for Thelemites, and occultists? Because if you were the materialist and skeptic that you claim to be you would not be seen anywhere near anything as kooky and irrational as Magick?
Do you actually practice Magick, or meditation? If so, how do you rationalize it to yourself? Have you had any results? would you even recognize them if you did?
From my own experience in this field I can say that although certain changes have occurred in my worldview, and my consciousness as a result of my practice, it has rarely, if ever, been particularly spectacular; no fireworks, no visions of grandeur, but only a slow and subtle unfolding of the senses, of the perceptions.
If you want fireworks, practice chemistry; if you want cosmic foo foo, join a new age cult; if you want the long slow, hard and often desolate road of spiritual unfolding, stay with us, but leave your preconceptions at the door.
This ain't Kansas Dorothy.
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@Solitarius said
"And might I ask; why are you even on this forum? which is run by, and run for Thelemites, and occultists? Because if you were the materialist and skeptic that you claim to be you would not be seen anywhere near anything as kooky and irrational as Magick?"
I would actually state the question more narrowly; because this is not (for example) a general Thelemic forum. It's specifically the forum of Temple of Thelema, a mystery school that teaches occultism, magick, etc., with specific goals such as the furtherance of one's spiritual awakening. It would (from one point of view) be quite reasonable to limit discussion topics here to the particular teachings (or, at least, areas of teaching) of the College & Temple of Thelema.
But, since this is a school, the teacher leaves the floor open for wider discussion, including disagreeing with the teachings. This is a tactic on my part: I think it furthers one's education to have to struggle with the material a bit and be forced to think for yourself about it. But tactic it is, rather than, say, a right that participants have. (It's openly stated to be a moderated forum, after all.) And, because I am one of those disgusting, ineffective, life-wasting, unproductive, cloud-brained, tolerant liberals about whom Froclown regularly educates us, I lean toward giving someone more rope rather than less... erring in the direction of free speech... giving everybody their shot.
I suppose I'm mentioning this today because there have, recently, been a couple of people question why I'm so heavy handed in moderating this forum. After I got over my shock
I realized that, perhaps, I should say that, were I heavy-handed, then I would regard pretty much everything Froclown posts as off-topic to a forum specifically about occult, metaphysical, spiritual teachings - and he'd have been out of here long ago.But, as long as it doesn't get openly malicious, I prefer to roll out the rope and and let everybody else draw their own conclusions about where they see dope-on-a-rope, and where they see pope-on-a-rope soap.
(But I still share your question about why he bothers.)
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I knew this thread would turn into a materialism vs. subjectivism debate:
Probability or clairvoyance?
Either way, I see the future! And it's called pattern apprehension!
And, sometimes, the future isn't all that useful or exciting!
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Also:
@Jim Eshelman said
"I suppose I'm mentioning this today because there have, recently, been a couple of people question why I'm so heavy handed in moderating this forum. After I got over my shock I realized that, perhaps, I should say that, were I heavy-handed, then I would regard pretty much everything Froclown posts as off-topic to a forum specifically about occult, metaphysical, spiritual teachings - and he'd have been out of here long ago."
In my opinion, I don't think the moderation needs justification. The forum suits the reasoning behind why it was set up. And I do appreciate you giving everybody their freedom to opine in unpopular directions...even, sometimes, in very pointless directions.
Heavy-handed? Nah.
Focused.
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I agree that it's definitely challenging, and although sometimes it can seem to be all a bit besides the point, it is true that we all need something to challenge our thinking, to make sure we are thinking.
I usually don't get too heavily involved with the online sparring, although I have had my moments, for me the most important thing is getting the work done; i guess I come to this forum specifically to be challenged, and @Froclown, your viewpoint is certainly that.
I apologize if my statements earlier seemed a little overly sharp, I am not that subtle, however, they were honestly made and I stand by them, not out of hostility, but out of genuine concern for one who seems so dangerously one sided; I admit that I have been guilty of the kind of Victorian materialism that makes any real progress impossible, and i can see the trap that you are digging for yourself.
My advice is this; Doubt all, but also give the benefit of the doubt; don't just deny until proven otherwise, but withhold judgement until you actually understand the specific parameters that this kind of work operates within; in other words, although it is true that we should use the scientific method, we should nor make the error of confusing the planes; psychological facts are not the same as physical facts,and magickal facts are not the same as either of these, although they partake of the nature of both to a greater or lesser extent.
Keep an open mind, but not so open that your brains fall out
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@Solitarius said
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@Froclown said
" They unconscious mind picks up on the subtle differences in the deck design, before conscious awareness. Those people who were more Tuned into being aware of their heart rates, picked up on the way the game was rigged sooner than those with less awareness of heart rate. "I'm sorry but that is a load of crap.
If I shuffle a deck of 78 cards any number of times I cannot possibly notice any "subtle differences" in the card design, not if it's the same pack every time.
"If it helps you reconcile your love for Froclown I'll tell you that I imagined he was discussing experiments with marked decks of playing cards.
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I always get a good vibe from Froclown. I even appreciate, in some strange way, how he hijacks threads and makes statements I don't even wanna read all the way through. <!-- s:L) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile-l.gif" alt=":L)" title="Smile-L" /><!-- s:L) -->
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In the experiment the card game had cards that were marked by beng from slightly different decks.
In the liber E practice if you keep it up for along time, your tarot cards will start to wear out, you will end up with little marks, tears, bends, etc that you may cue into but not be aware that you cue into them.
Also this practice has another aspect to it from that book. And it is that if you guess wrong, you are supposed to justify why you guessed wrong, maybe you guess the 5 of swords but the Hermit comes up and you say, oh well the book of thoth references Nietzsche on the 5 of swords and the hermit is analogous to nietzsches mad man who declares God is dead. And so on, you learn to rationalize your misses, and this both works to train yourself for conformation biased ways of thinking, such that you later have a mind primed to fool itself to accept shoddy evidence as proof of the super natural. And this practice also helps buid a memorization of the Kabbalah spheres and paths, and an active working with them on the fly. It sort of works like a full emersion technique of learning the language of Kabbalah.
And for those savvy enough to realize this practice is playing on and even strengthening confirmation bias types of cognitive thinking, one can learn to deconstruct those tendencies, and learn to be aware of the types of links between ideas that one used to justify amd rationalize experiences to fit ones biases, and then work to be aware of and decondition oneself to not allow this biases to interfere with logically valid interpretations of data sets.
That is the true purpose of those practices, but the unwary and easily misguided student takes them at their literal expression, and actually rather than improving upon their mental acuity strengths self deceptive and fallacious mental processes.
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@Froclown said
"In the experiment the card game had cards that were marked by beng from slightly different decks.
In the liber E practice if you keep it up for along time, your tarot cards will start to wear out, you will end up with little marks, tears, bends, etc that you may cue into but not be aware that you cue into them.
Also this practice has another aspect to it from that book. And it is that if you guess wrong, you are supposed to justify why you guessed wrong, maybe you guess the 5 of swords but the Hermit comes up and you say, oh well the book of thoth references Nietzsche on the 5 of swords and the hermit is analogous to nietzsches mad man who declares God is dead. And so on, you learn to rationalize your misses, and this both works to train yourself for conformation biased ways of thinking, such that you later have a mind primed to fool itself to accept shoddy evidence as proof of the super natural. And this practice also helps buid a memorization of the Kabbalah spheres and paths, and an active working with them on the fly. It sort of works like a full emersion technique of learning the language of Kabbalah.
And for those savvy enough to realize this practice is playing on and even strengthening confirmation bias types of cognitive thinking, one can learn to deconstruct those tendencies, and learn to be aware of the types of links between ideas that one used to justify amd rationalize experiences to fit ones biases, and then work to be aware of and decondition oneself to not allow this biases to interfere with logically valid interpretations of data sets.
That is the true purpose of those practices, but the unwary and easily misguided student takes them at their literal expression, and actually rather than improving upon their mental acuity strengths self deceptive and fallacious mental processes."
You really are beyond belief
No one said anything about marked cards, or worn out cards, or cards from different decks so that you would unconsciously know which cards were which.
You would stretch you idea of "reason" indefinitely simply to prove yourself right.
I bet if the Archangel Gabriel himself came to you and told you to desist you would call him a hallucination and blame it on whatever you had for dinner, or bad air, or lack of sleep, or anything at all to avoid facing the reality that YOU SIMPLY DO NOT UNDERSTAND!
(Before you seize upon it for your own reasons I am not implying the reality or not of archangels, that was merely an illustration to make a point)You are obviously not a rational man, and do not respond to reason, and on those grounds I have nothing more to say to you.
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@Solitarius said
"You are obviously not a rational man, and do not respond to reason, and on those grounds I have nothing more to say to you."
Welcome to the club!
Love and Will
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There are no such things as angels, so if I see one, it is an hallucination, or a trick, or a dream.