Baphomet - A symbol of Tiphareth?
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For the record, as your quote shows, i was speaking of **the idea of Baphomet as put forth by O.T.O.[\b] I picked that language to distinguish it from either Levi's idea or historic uses, and to make clear (I thought) that I was only speaking of the specific usage of the term in a specific context.
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"For the record, as your quote shows, i was speaking of **the idea of Baphomet as put forth by O.T.O.[\b] I picked that language to distinguish it from either Levi's idea or historic uses, and to make clear (I thought) that I was only speaking of the specific usage of the term in a specific context."
I know that it is sometimes difficult to interpret the tone that someone is writing with, but my tone is not intended to be rude or disrespectful. I realized that you were making a distinction between the way that the O.T.O presents the symbol and other representations that it had historically. I still don't get it though. Your saying that when Reuss "...explained to Crowley the theory behind that school of Alchemy which uses sexual fluids and the Elixir of Life." and "He enlarged on the Baphomet tradition of the Knights Templars and traced it’s alleged survival through the Hermetic Brotherhood of Light (a nineteenth-century esoteric society)" that he gave Crowley a different interpretation of Baphomet than what was already popularly known and taught by Levi and others? Why would he do that since Levi, I imagine, would have been considered an authority on the subject? What is the different interpretation that Reuss presumably explained to Crowley?
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@kerlem93 said
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"I still don't get it though. Your saying that when Reuss "...explained to Crowley the theory behind that school of Alchemy which uses sexual fluids and the Elixir of Life." and "He enlarged on the Baphomet tradition of the Knights Templars and traced it’s alleged survival through the Hermetic Brotherhood of Light (a nineteenth-century esoteric society)" that he gave Crowley a different interpretation of Baphomet than what was already popularly known and taught by Levi and others?"Absolutely. "Baphomet" is a specific code word with a precise meaning in O.T.O.
I'm trying not to obscure in what I'm actually writing - to make each sentence that I have written be complete and clear in itself. But I am drawing a line in not saying more, and this might give the appearance of obscurity. I'm drawing the line because, even though I haven't been a member of O.T.O. since 1992, I was obligated to the IX° and owe absolute fidelity to my oaths. So I'm being mindful of which lines I feel I can cross. Hwoever, the specific statements I've made are accurate and complete in and of themselves.
"Why would he do that since Levi, I imagine, would have been considered an authority on the subject?"
No, Levi was jut the most popular writer of the time.
"What is the different interpretation that Reuss presumably explained to Crowley?"
"That's the exact thing I'm being careful not to say.
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hermetic.com/dionysos/art3.htm
Here is the take on Baphomet from an EGC bishop.
Though these days you are hard pressed to find an official OTO stance on much, they want to leave everything broad to personal interpretation. Though one could also take this as they dont want to stamp an official OTO seal of approval on anything to avoid having to defend any stance.
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93,
That Baphomet image is odd. Why is Tiphereth (yellow) not at the heart center? Why is Yesod (purple) down near where most people would put Malkuth? And Netzach and Hod are usually placed the hips, not the knees. It looks like the sephiroth below the Supernals have slipped down a notch - or the person who created this has his or her own version of the Tree in mind.
93 93/93,
Edward -
Although it is unpopular (NAY! Taboo!) among some thelemites to say "right" or "wrong," I will bravely state that this is the correct geometry for determining the distance between the sephiroth. Notice how in comparison, the Baphomet tree has the supernal triad very distant from the rest.
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This is the Adam Kadmon or The Body of God. I think it comes from the Zohar. It puts Malkuth at the feet and puts Hod and Netzach at the knees. As for Yesod, I think Baphomet is just very well endowed. However the reason I put Tiphareth at the solar plexus must remain a secret. P.S. Daath is at the thoat. P.S.S. Whoever drew this Adam Kadmon picture put Yesod above Hod and Netzach.
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93,
Sure, but Hermetic Qabalah differs from the Zohar in various ways, and has its own, well-established and well-worked tradition. Hebraic Qabalah is older (most of it, anyway), but that doesn't mean it's more "correct."
93 93/93,
Edward -
93,
Sure, I'm not disputing that. But there was a fundamental shift in understanding that happened when this Aeon kicked in, a few decades after Levi did his work. That included a more profound comprehension of the significance of Baphomet. That's separate from any 'official' positions of specific Thelemic orders.
EDIT:
I guess my point is that Qabalah is a dynamic system. That is, while it is dependent on a tradition, its job is to keep on expanding that tradition.Those expansions can be difficult to negotiate. From the Renaissance up through Dee's work with the Enochian system was one such expansion, and the late 19th Century saw another, with Levi and then the G.D. coming in. Crowley then pushed the bar far higher. Each breakthrough needs time to take hold, and undergo exploration and stabilization. Then off we go again.
But these aren't deviations from some more valid or more correct traditional viewpoint. They're what Qabalah is supposed to be doing - developing into new areas. Thus, while Levi is still sometimes interesting to study (though he's not one of my personal favorites) he is summarizing the Old Aeon, and his work has been largely replaced by what's been learned in this one.
93 93/93,
Edward -
@kedwards said
"Its not about right or wrong or what the O.T.O. or A.A. believes, I just think its what Levi had in mind."
That wasn't the original question (though I know it's the question now).
The original question of this thread was an inquiry about my statement concerning the O.T.O.'s idea of Baphomet. Levi's ideas had nothing to do with it.
My original statement elsewhere, which Kerlem93 asked about to start this thread, was "Aside from whatever idea the Templars have, the idea of Baphomet which was put forth by O.T.O., and which Crowley adopted from there, was not a solar idea."
