What meaneth this, o prophet? AHA!
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@Avshalom Binyamin said
"
My main criticism is the use of the term "crossing the abyss". Crossing the abyss isn't the same as "going to a different realm in our minds" or "having a crazy experience". Crossing the abyss is something way beyond that, with a very specific meaning and context."I will add then that "Crossing the Abyss" to be really such must be done on all planes. For example I think anybody that is serious on comprehending philosophy to the core, understanding all points of view in there etc. for real (in a "Stanislavskij" way, so to speak) will "Cross the Abyss" intellectually, but that will not mean that s/he will have "Crossed the Abyss" as such.
The same is true for every other grade, etc. and Crowley was very attentive on trying to make this point across. For this, for example, I don't think that the "oath of the Abyss" means as such until you are not ready to accept it fully.
I think, for example, that also the word "interpreting" in that same oath is a sort of "misnomer" (or maybe a trap, can be? Or maybe, more simply just a misunderstanding of the meaning made from a too literal approach coming from the reader), since if you are really there then there's nothing to interpret because everything is already a dealing of God with your soul (at that point and probably always, but when you are there you understand it for real, instead of just, for example, intellectually); if you "interpret" (in the literal sense of the word) then you are just providing a filter in there. I can be mistaken, naturally, but that's my view of it at this point.
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@Lavir said
"
In Liber HAD it is written:
"7.Let the Aspirant apply himself to comprehend Hadit as the perfect, that is Not, and solve the mystery of the numbers of Hadit and his components by his right Ingenium." [ED: emphasis mine].So, whetever what you discovered is "true" in the absolute sense and if it's really the solution of it or not, it doesn't really matter for what it concerns your individuality. What it matter is that the "solution" means something for you and have had an impact on you (naturally this doesn't mean that all "solutions" will really matter as such, the point of the matter is always in the well known motto: "success is your proof")."
Yes - i agree with your wisdom here and is pretty much the direction i lean - which doesn't make the verse any less mysterious for anyone else ironically enough.
"
In substance, while it can matter in the objective sense a "real" solution (in the absolute sense) of the verse, it matters more for what it concerns the "here and now" of the individual his/her own personal solution and if that has really had an impact in his/her growth or not and for his/her own Will. At last this in the view of the comprehension of Hadit as in Liber HAD (as an example of this)."i think part of the union of the alchemy of the book in terms of the aspirant, to me personally, is to unify what you call the 'absolute sense' with the 'personal'. Both are actually absolutes and can function as absolutes and are one, nay, are none
The alignment of those two are quite shocking - i can swear to this only from personal experience.
"
As for the "absolute solution" I personally think that it will pass some time before someone will be able to solve it in that way, and maybe it will coincide with something concrete also of an "external" nature. These are naturally suppositions, nothing more, but I don't think it will be something coming in the very near future."
well I am sure we can agree, that verse in liber al still is quite mysterious none the less
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Swing the door wide open. The dog, unfed, has sought a new home.
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@Aegis said
"Swing the door wide open. The dog, unfed, has sought a new home."
lol - What meaneth this?
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@Lavir said
"
I will add then that "Crossing the Abyss" to be really such must be done on all planes. For example I think anybody that is serious on comprehending philosophy to the core, understanding all points of view in there etc. for real (in a "Stanislavskij" way, so to speak) will "Cross the Abyss" intellectually, but that will not mean that s/he will have "Crossed the Abyss" as such.
The same is true for every other grade, etc. and Crowley was very attentive on trying to make this point across. For this, for example, I don't think that the "oath of the Abyss" means as such until you are not ready to accept it fully.
I think, for example, that also the word "interpreting" in that same oath is a sort of "misnomer" (or maybe a trap, can be? Or maybe, more simply just a misunderstanding of the meaning made from a too literal approach coming from the reader), since if you are really there then there's nothing to interpret because everything is already a dealing of God with your soul (at that point and probably always, but when you are there you understand it for real, instead of just, for example, intellectually); if you "interpret" (in the literal sense of the word) then you are just providing a filter in there. I can be mistaken, naturally, but that's my view of it at this point."
Well I have no idea how many abysses i crossed on what worlds or what have you. I took no oath to cross, but did make it my intention to surrender across it once it was apparent it was happening. Again, I can't take any credit for that and at the time felt I was the most unqualified person in the world to be experiencing what I was experiencing and being shown what I was being shown.
I'm not making this an interpretation of my experience, meaning I am not deconstructing the experience and then assuming it must have been the abyss that I crossed, rather crossing the abyss, facing my greatest fear (losing my mind - going insane) and transcending was just a part of the experience and it was really clear at the time that was what was happening. Then it just lasted for three months, the energy, insight, rapture, and revelation.
I've been more skeptical about the validity of that then anybody - and I accept there is no one who could confirm it.
but I do disagree - I do think that those who have had this experience can recognize when another has as well.
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@ldfriend56 said
"I've been more skeptical about the validity of that then anybody - and I accept there is no one who could confirm it.
but I do disagree - I do think that those who have had this experience can recognize when another has as well."
What I said was not meant as a way to invalidate or either challenge your experience, at all. They were just my ramblings on what Avshalom wrote, with some other little ramblings on the "Oath of the Abyss".
Also because I'm not in position to invalidate nor yours nor anybody's else experience on this because I never had it and it will be long before I will have to do with it (well, the longer the better - stay away frome me!
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"but I do disagree - I do think that those who have had this experience can recognize when another has as well."
Absolutely.
But the desire to be incorporated into this group, to have them accept you, interact with you, to not feel diminished and intimidated by you, you have to lie. At least, that has been my experience, and the source of my major malfunction.
I salute you for being able to represent yourself so ably and calmly. I came here at the beginning of the period you describe as "taking several years to recover," and I've made a mess of it all. I'm sick of pretending. My experience was precisely as you describe. The rest has been an attempt to confirm my experiences here - to understand Thelema - to organize my experience according to the gods and whatnot.
The Abyss, and surviving it, on the other side... It's just kind of like - good luck consolidating all that into a coherent liveable system without all the training that should go beforehand. And I struggle with that, because my leap was a leap of love, and the experiences it opened to me have been hellish. I feel betrayed by that which I sought to love most. And it's hard to get help when no one will admit the cause of your need - they don't allow it - cannot conceive it in their wordlview - reject it - bare minimum: cannot speak it.
So, I don't know how your relationship will evolve here. I hope you are able to be incorporated into the flow. You seem to be already more balanced. I hope you won't lose that when the more precise and ruthless come to present their challenges to your apparently outrageous arrogance.
I confess my jealousy at your apparent acceptance. Then again, it's only been a few days, and you haven't tried to drop any authoritative-sounding knowledge on anyone yet.
But... I am interested in what you say you may be able to offer the world - especially regarding discernment. I'm sure I wouldn't mind trying it.
Ignore my desire to leave. I find myself not allowed. Do you understand that? Perhaps you do.
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[and immediately into my office walks a student I am made painfully aware I have no idea how to help...]
Of course...
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@Aegis said
"
But the desire to be incorporated into this group, to have them accept you, interact with you, to not feel diminished and intimidated by you, you have to lie. At least, that has been my experience, and the source of my major malfunction. "
hmmm, lie? sometimes it's better to replace the lying with just art and theatre. i cannot imagine any situation or environment of proposed higher awareness where lying would be integral to a process of assimilation. Indeed, one of the most clearest realizations I had during that time is the power of integrity and honesty.
Yet, at the same time, we can also be confronted with a truth that sometimes can contradict this - which, and I am paraphrasing an old hebrew saying "To tell the truth to someone who is unable to comprehend it is the same thing as lying to them."
what is one to do then?
My experience of crossing left me with a responsibility to share, in some sense, what i learned. Sometimes this is done in a hidden fashion, sometimes quite openly. Understanding the subtle dynamics of communication, the natural conflict of idea that exists in the mind (and especially below the abyss) is very important. Below the abyss, the conflict of idea rages humanity, it truly is a 'war in heaven' and the tragedy is we identify ourselves as the natural ideas in conflict. Above the abyss, the conflict of idea is quite harmonious, and is in service to humanity's progress and is truly a 'win win' sport.
"
I salute you for being able to represent yourself so ably and calmly. I came here at the beginning of the period you describe as "taking several years to recover," and I've made a mess of it all. I'm sick of pretending. My experience was precisely as you describe. The rest has been an attempt to confirm my experiences here - to understand Thelema - to organize my experience according to the gods and whatnot. "You can organize your experience in relationship to True (what is this?) False (WOW WHAT IS THIS?) and Mystery(there is no answer to what this is). To understand mystery, we must understand 'false' other than an appeal to it's opposite (not true). You can organize your experience in relationship to the macro and micro 'win win'. I use 'win win' to define any form of unity, both in a practical sense and an abstract 'inner' sense.
You probably dont need to integrate with Thelemites just because you crossed the abyss. If you crossed the abyss, your in service to all and these people here are the least likely to need your help
"The Abyss, and surviving it, on the other side... It's just kind of like - good luck consolidating all that into a coherent liveable system without all the training that should go beforehand. And I struggle with that, because my leap was a leap of love, and the experiences it opened to me have been hellish. I feel betrayed by that which I sought to love most. And it's hard to get help when no one will admit the cause of your need - they don't allow it - cannot conceive it in their wordlview - reject it - bare minimum: cannot speak it. "
to tell the truth to someone unable to comprehend it is the same as lying to them. yes?
"
So, I don't know how your relationship will evolve here. I hope you are able to be incorporated into the flow. You seem to be already more balanced. I hope you won't lose that when the more precise and ruthless come to present their challenges to your apparently outrageous arrogance. "
i will be sorely disappointed if the ruthless and more precise attacks do not come. as brothers we fight, yes? over the conflict of idea? either way I win, either through exposing my delusions or further understanding core truths hard won in the 'battle'.
Social media has given us quite a global battlefield for the conflict of idea, eh? embrace it, it's one of the best games we have and from my POV, it's a game of pure love and win.
"
I confess my jealousy at your apparent acceptance. Then again, it's only been a few days, and you haven't tried to drop any authoritative-sounding knowledge on anyone yet. "
how is this?
all problems are solved effectively and for certain when all sides win. internally and externally.
"
But... I am interested in what you say you may be able to offer the world - especially regarding discernment. I'm sure I wouldn't mind trying it.
Ignore my desire to leave. I find myself not allowed. Do you understand that? Perhaps you do."
Understand True, False, and Mystery. *consider; Nuit may be True, Hadit may be false, and Ra - Hoor may be Mystery. (also wrote that to ruffle some feathers and creates some sparks of intimate fire
Understand it is the true will of all to win. understand 'win' as obtainment or attainment. understand above the abyss is pure win win. below the abyss pure win lose. understand the conflict of idea is a big set up for getting humanity to play a win win game as a whole.that's all i got
come at me bro'
Hurry! I may not be able to stay around that long! Only came by for a quick powwow.
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I could name several who could come at you the hardest of all, but... honestly, they're pretty cool unless you start sounding like you're bragging - or if they're in bad moods, I guess - or both concurrently, really. So far, they haven't been around, nor do you particularly sound like you need the severe mercy of deflation.
The stuff you're on about - True, False, Mystery. I can grasp at some of the intent behind your meanings.
Am I correct in thinking that True equates to Nuit as above the Abyss (win/win), False and Hadit as below (win/lose), and Mystery as the experience of that interaction between perspectives?
If so, then I guess I would have to ask... do you regard some of the weird stuff that happens around you... There are times when I am an observer of an interaction I cannot explain. People transcend their personalities and interact in my presence in what appears to be a looser, more spiritual reality at times. Negotiations seem to take place, information is traded. I simply go passive during these times and observe. It's a very strange experience. I get the feeling that there's a lot that goes on beyond the surface, that it's at my expense, or at least the expense of the integrity of my reasoning and normal personality. I get the sense that people profit from this, while I don't, though I am entirely necessary to the process.
Can you see how this would drive me a bit batty? I can't tell if this part of the experience is some sort of temptation, ordeal, transitional mental state, .... actually.... I'm hedging again. I know what I think it is, but what is it in your experience... See? It just doesn't really work to try to confirm or anything... I just don't know if I should try to do anything about it or not.
Thoughts?
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The easiest thing to say is that I have experiences in which I must consciously, functionally manage true paranoia - that which comes "alongside knowing," that it is a false experience, and that the only thing to do is to continue to manage the experience.
But... there are those methods one develops for oneself to discern and confirm the truth of one's experience when no one else can confirm or deny it, and these methods... "methods.." lol... these methods confirm my experiences with later events. For instance, I understand now that I could have told you about two days in advance that Perry was preparing to run for office.
I don't know how to say it, but in the area that you seem to be describing as Mystery, I experience "the game." It's the outworking of present problems in "history," in Assiah - at least in my mind, but that goes back to the argument itself.
Here's my problem, I think: I can fully invest both in an interpretation which regards the experiences as perfectly real as well as in an interpretation that regards my experiences as totally false - simultaneously -well, not entirely... it depends.... It's more like still trying to find out, but each perspective, in turn, seems to carry the full weight of its conviction. It's as if at least something, everyday, causes me to take one position and have that confirmed to me, and then the rest of the day is devoted to making me switch back to the other interpretation.
It's as if Life itself does not wish for me to settle on one alone, but the combination of the two seems mutually exclusive.
I have become the Incredible Hulk... A spiritually gifted manic with occassional paranoid symptoms...? A judge like in the Hebrew stories? Still in the Abyss? What?
I want the scene at the end of the movie where Edward Norton is meditating calmly, and then he suddenly smiles as his eyes flash open, glowing green.
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@Aegis said
"I could name several who could come at you the hardest of all, but... honestly, they're pretty cool unless you start sounding like you're bragging - or if they're in bad moods, I guess - or both concurrently, really. So far, they haven't been around, nor do you particularly sound like you need the severe mercy of deflation. "
a one Robert Allen came at me in another thread, claiming as his inspiration a 'feisty mood'. He's fun. I'm hoping Jim will engage a bit.
"
The stuff you're on about - True, False, Mystery. I can grasp at some of the intent behind your meanings.
Am I correct in thinking that True equates to Nuit as above the Abyss (win/win), False and Hadit as below (win/lose), and Mystery as the experience of that interaction between perspectives?"
Interesting! I never considered that each chapter would support win/win or win/lose, although nuit, to me, is very much a result of and is a 'win win' network so I guess there is something to that train of thought. You need hadit tho for the win win - after all, what else would 'leaping laughter' be amongst friends but the ultimate win win celebration? celebration itself...so I would not think win/lose would be hadit at all.
however, Hadit, and this is to me personally and only myself can make this understanding work deep in my own inner 'mythos' but to me Hadit is just FALSE and the nature of FALSE (which is also very close to mystery by it's nature, much like the taoist sages would say 'yin is close to tao') I think to understand this one must just need to meditate on ART to understand the nature of FALSE. Nuit provides TRUE mainly because she is a network of stars who have 'shared' information. Shared information implies objective consciousness to share and understand, whereas as to Hadit it belongs to pure subjectivity and hidden qualities of self, which can lead to illumination and leaping laughter but also insanity, delusion if one cuts themselves off from the network of 'other stars'. Ra - Hoor is the mystery of 'our' current existence, the path of humanity at this time. Being mysterious, i have little to say about it
That is a quick summation of my own inner workings on the matter. It probably doesnt make as much sense as I think it does "
If so, then I guess I would have to ask... do you regard some of the weird stuff that happens around you... There are times when I am an observer of an interaction I cannot explain. People transcend their personalities and interact in my presence in what appears to be a looser, more spiritual reality at times. Negotiations seem to take place, information is traded. I simply go passive during these times and observe. It's a very strange experience. I get the feeling that there's a lot that goes on beyond the surface, that it's at my expense, or at least the expense of the integrity of my reasoning and normal personality. I get the sense that people profit from this, while I don't, though I am entirely necessary to the process."hmmm. it sounds to me like your not bringing your own 'intention' to the table in the transaction. Naturally, we can understand 'intention' as 'thelema'. If your not bringing your own intention of the win win to the table - and others are winning while you're not, then that's just another mirror of the win-lose paradigms - 'i must lose so that others can win' or 'i seem to lose when others win'. Thelemically, that could be interpretted as old aeon problem solving of the Christ formula. it's probably not very productive in the new aeon i would imagine.
Bring your intention to the table boldly! If your intention is the win win, then you have the support of the win win universe and 'success is your proof'
"
Can you see how this would drive me a bit batty? I can't tell if this part of the experience is some sort of temptation, ordeal, transitional mental state, .... actually.... I'm hedging again. I know what I think it is, but what is it in your experience... See? It just doesn't really work to try to confirm or anything... I just don't know if I should try to do anything about it or not.
Thoughts?"
Keep your attainment in the mystery. dont worry about anything other than perfecting and refining the win win internally and externally and bring your intention to that every waking moment of every day.
If your not having fun your not doing it right
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"If your not having fun your not doing it right "
That's what I hear.
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Thanks for you comments.
It's the idea that I should be kept in the dark and continue in the dark that I constantly resist. No old Aeon formula for me. Thanks. If so, I would be happy in my sufferings. As it is, that's some bullshit.
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@Aegis said
"The easiest thing to say is that I have experiences in which I must consciously, functionally manage true paranoia - that which comes "alongside knowing," that it is a false experience, and that the only thing to do is to continue to manage the experience. "
paranoia is just projecting our own false ideas onto the mystery. The distinctions between True, False, and Mystery are very clear and objective. They can also be understood as Objective Truths, False Truths, and Mysterious Truths. When you encounter a paranoid idea, deconstruct it into your inner truth values - combine rational thinking and passionate intuition.
From my POV, higher intelligence can only operate 'win win' - so when you encounter paranoia, try to balance it out with pro-noia - and try to find the evidence of the hidden school plotting to make you win around every corner. Bring all ideas into a harmonious dialectic within themselves and appreciate the union of the two of them.
"
But... there are those methods one develops for oneself to discern and confirm the truth of one's experience when no one else can confirm or deny it, and these methods... "methods.." lol... these methods confirm my experiences with later events. For instance, I understand now that I could have told you about two days in advance that Perry was preparing to run for office. "
okay, yeah i got that sort of stuff too - just let it be. sometimes you will be given the T, sometimes the F, and sometimes the M. it's up to the aspirant to determine which one he is working with.
"
I don't know how to say it, but in the area that you seem to be describing as Mystery, I experience "the game." It's the outworking of present problems in "history," in Assiah - at least in my mind, but that goes back to the argument itself. "
hmmm, not sure what you mean exactly, but I do see that the 'game' between True, False and Mystery has shaped the historical dialectic which has guided humanity to our current phase.
"
Here's my problem, I think: I can fully invest both in an interpretation which regards the experiences as perfectly real as well as in an interpretation that regards my experiences as totally false - simultaneously -well, not entirely... it depends.... It's more like still trying to find out, but each perspective, in turn, seems to carry the full weight of its conviction. It's as if at least something, everyday, causes me to take one position and have that confirmed to me, and then the rest of the day is devoted to making me switch back to the other interpretation. "
It's as if Life itself does not wish for me to settle on one alone, but the combination of the two seems mutually exclusive. "
keep combining! two make three and then all dissolve. integrating the opposites, colliding them together in dialectic or fusing them together in love is that not the great work?
"
I have become the Incredible Hulk... A spiritually gifted manic with occassional paranoid symptoms...? A judge like in the Hebrew stories? Still in the Abyss? What?
I want the scene at the end of the movie where Edward Norton is meditating calmly, and then he suddenly smiles as his eyes flash open, glowing green."
your just thinking about it too much. dont forget to FEEL it and Think about it. Only those two perfectly married will carry you across. you just have to lose all your false ideas believed to be true, all your true ideas believed to be mystery, and all your mysterious ideas believed to be otherwise.
personally i always like the Silver Surfer
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@Aegis said
"Thanks for you comments.
It's the idea that I should be kept in the dark and continue in the dark that I constantly resist. No old Aeon formula for me. Thanks. If so, I would be happy in my sufferings. As it is, that's some bullshit."
what do you mean 'in the dark'? the nature of the self, some part of it will always be in the dark to ourselves and others.
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I meant in the experiences.
For example, last time, some assured others that I was "comatose" (not able to comprehend what was going on), yet one was speaking on behalf of petroleum and it's "language." I think this is enabled because of some past "agreement" or something similar that I was coerced into during a more hellish experience. At times, some express surprise that I can hear them "talking."
I no longer want to keep this agreement, nor my silence about it. If you're only as sick as your secrets, there's a big one.
I am awake. I can hear them. And most times I can make out what they're talking about.
Their whole world is money, and my services are stolen from me without compensation. If I were using an Old Aeon formula, I would simply suffer in silence. As it is, I hold them to their own passion, money, and that for which they use me, my judgment.
And I say, "You haven't kept your end of the deal, and by the rules of your own money game, you owe me. Your services are cut off, and all impartial judgments are suspended until you follow your own rules and payment is made."
But that's *just *crazy talk...
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@ldfriend56 said
"a one Robert Allen came at me in another thread, claiming as his inspiration a 'feisty mood'. He's fun. I'm hoping Jim will engage a bit."
That would be a serious waste of my time.
Av more or less gave the answer I would have given. (More or less.)
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Me: I love you.
It: I'm fine. I hate you. I love you. I want ice cream. Come here. Go away. Oranges?
Me: I'm fine. I hate you. I love you. I want ice cream. Come here. Go away. Oranges?
It: Boohoo. You hate me.
Experiment: Successful.
Outcome: Hated.