mystical voyeurism
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Well, since no one else is on right now. [edit: oh, I was mistaken, my bad. lol...]
To my mind, the difference lies in whether we're talking about conscious or unconscious knowledge. Maybe I'm just catching up.
Chardin's idea seemed to involve the evolution of conscious knowledge and a sort of resulting utopia. I'm not sure whether or not he attempted to describe the "Omega Point" in terms of human society or whether he just used the term as a teleological variable.
And I think that's a point of distinction here. One may imagine the Omega Point as the culmination of human knowledge and society and may imagine that knowledge is non-contradictory. So, the culmination of knowledge would seem to result in the idea of the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth.
However, when we're talking about humanity opening to Neshamah, we're talking about first coming to terms with the fact that knowledge is very tangled up within the individual perspective. Opening experiences to Neshamah, if I'm correct, involve relationships and experiences within such a larger self that some of the fundamental perspectives of our rules for knowing are suspended as inadequate. Cause and effect, individual and other - these make up some of the basic assumptions of ontology and knowledge, but they are inadequate to express the truths/experiences of Neshamah.
In this sense, the proliferation of knowledge could be inhibiting (and I think that's Jim's point) because the supposed "certainty" of it blocks openness to experiences where the foundational presuppositions of our ontology are required to be suspended (Alrah's point).
Anyway, I hope I'm not tangenting or being superfluous.
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(I see the forum has a lot of speed and activity, which is really great, but I´ll continue later, write and read all this accurately in english takes me a bunch of time and now I have things to do..)
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What Chardin may have imagined as the Omega Point may be what Jim was describing when he talked about the main task of humanity at present as being the achievement of the Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel.
Maybe what Chardin imagined as the Omega Point was a human society where humanity as a whole was operating in K&C and that this would develop in individuals as surely as puberty.
I do see the proliferation of knowledge leading more and more in this direction... Magic being able to be understood psychologically, reducing fear. The acceptance of Eastern cultures and their spirituality. That kind of thing.
All that to say, I think it's the introduction into this conversation specifically of the experiences of Neshamah (and in what way they can or can not be understood as representing "knowledge") that is most kinking the discussion.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Smoke, I wonder if you're using "knowledge" in a different way than I am (which would account for some seeming disparity). I'm careful to use "knowledge" as a technical term that excludes the transrational. My remarks explicitly presumed you meant "rational, intellectual knowledge" (which is redundant, but I stretched it to communicate <g>)."
A quick one for explain myself better: yes, “rational, intellectual knowledge” in the usual sense, implying“dogmatic” in some way, in opposition to a superior, Briahtic or whatever knowledge who integrates better duality.. I hope that completes my last explanation.
..And now I´ll keep arguing elliptical and referentially like if there´s no tomorrow: I´m wondering if could be such a correlation between the Unconscious of Jung, the Real of Lacan, and the Neshamah or the Supernals... I remember Jung saying that the knowledge of the relationship between the conscious and the unconscious is something that in the current state of the psychology (well, in times of Jung´s life) is practically in it´s childhood, which I think is quite similar to what is said about the transition between the Osiris Aeon to the Horus Aeon..
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@SmokingMonkey said
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Smoke, I wonder if you're using "knowledge" in a different way than I am (which would account for some seeming disparity). I'm careful to use "knowledge" as a technical term that excludes the transrational. My remarks explicitly presumed you meant "rational, intellectual knowledge" (which is redundant, but I stretched it to communicate <g>)."A quick one for explain myself better: yes, “rational, intellectual knowledge” in the usual sense, implying“dogmatic” in some way, in opposition to a superior, Briahtic or whatever knowledge who integrates better duality.. I hope that completes my last explanation."
Then I come back and reassert: No, increase in knowledge (thus defined) does NOT per se increase access to Neshamah. Increase in rational content, if anything, is discouraging of transrational awakening.
However... it can be confusing because... the awakening of transrational processes can have a secondary effect of enabling one to handle vastly greater amounts of rational content. One isn't really handling it via rational processes (or even as rational content per se) - one is often leaping over it - see the neurological discoverings in the process of insight that I've been lecturing on under the neading of New Aeon Cognition.
"I´m wondering if could be such a correlation between the Unconscious of Jung, the Real of Lacan, and the Neshamah or the Supernals..."
Jung's "unconscious" is an imprecise term, since it incorporates both subconsciousness (Nephesh) and superconsciousness (Neshamah).
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Jim, if I may over simplify, and in doing so hopefully reach some understanding of what is going on here - instead of the word "knowledge," what if we used the word "experience" (as in personal experience or witnessing of "point events")? Can we say "an increase in experience can lead to the access to Neshamah?"
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@Jim Eshelman said
"No, increase in knowledge (thus defined) does NOT per se increase access to Neshamah. Increase in rational content, if anything, is discouraging of transrational awakening.
However... it can be confusing because... the awakening of transrational processes can have a secondary effect of enabling one to handle vastly greater amounts of rational content. "
This is true, and something I need to remind myself every time my Ruach, in its intellectual insecurity, seems to imagine that if I just amass enough knowledge, I'll "get there".
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Jim Eshelman:
"Then I come back and reassert: No, increase in knowledge (thus defined) does NOT per se increase access to Neshamah. Increase in rational content, if anything, is discouraging of transrational awakening.
However... it can be confusing because... the awakening of transrational processes can have a secondary effect of enabling one to handle vastly greater amounts of rational content. One isn't really handling it via rational processes (or even as rational content per se) - one is often leaping over it - see the neurological discoverings in the process of insight that I've been lecturing on under the neading of New Aeon Cognition."
That rings true to me, and you make me curious about the neurological point related to that New Aeon Cognitions. Apart I´ll adress you to my first response, Esh, which I think you´re probably missing. In this one I extended the question of the relationships with Neshamah, not only to rational (intelectual) knowledge per se, but to the wide range of the Ruach, which could involve Briahtic “cognitions” (in a manner of speak), and so on. Here´s it:
@Jim Eshelman said
"Smoke, I wonder if you're using "knowledge" in a different way than I am (which would account for some seeming disparity). I'm careful to use "knowledge" as a technical term that excludes the transrational. My remarks explicitly presumed you meant "rational, intellectual knowledge" (which is redundant, but I stretched it to communicate <g>)."
Ok let´s see, my point is that the capacity for avoid dogma impliccates in some way the approachment to a “kind of" knowledge less discriminative, a knowledge that integrates better duality... If that can be considered a transrational skill (the Neshamah we´re talking about), or a special kind of knowledge, Briahtic or something, I have no idea. ¿Maybe could be more certain the second, assuming that Neshamah is something that one not know or not do exactly, or something like that?
And a second question, related with the first. You said before that the acces to the Neshamah implies a expanding of knowledge in some ways, but not otherwise. Therefore I can´t assume a relationship of compensation or similar between both (like in the Jung´s concious and the unconcious, for example), or maybe there´s some others factors that have influence in the operation (if there´s such a thing). Anyway, ¿there´s a relationship of compensation or similar of any kind between Neshamah and the elements of the Ruach, or the Ruach in general? ¿What kind of relationship, if yes? Thanks.
@Takamba said
"Jim, if I may over simplify, and in doing so hopefully reach some understanding of what is going on here - instead of the word "knowledge," what if we used the word "experience" (as in personal experience or witnessing of "point events")? Can we say "an increase in experience can lead to the access to Neshamah?""
I second this, and extend it to a more general Ruach wide level question, as I say above. I mean, maybe "experience" can fit as a Ruach aspect or so, related with memory, karma and so others?
@Dar es Alrah said
"You can hang any hat (knowledge) on a hat stand (the TOL), as long as you are prepared to ignore the arbitrary nature of the construction of the hat stand itself. However - if you are after something systematic and therefore meaningful and useful as a universal map, then sooner or later you find that apart from providing a basis for the magical memory, then the TOL is of limited application precisely due to it's arbitrariness. You can be as arbitrary as you like if all you are concerned with are convenient descriptions (places to hang your hat), but a system requires that knowledge be treat in more than an aesthetic fashion. It must enable the knowledge to be usable systematically and also in a synergistic manner."
I think I understand what you say, and I agree. I think it´s precisely the plasticity of knowledge what can make it a double-edged dogma tool. As a quote I like say, “an investigation exhaustive enough always tends to favour the hypothesis of one self”.
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As I suspected, it's a semantical issue. You continue to use "knowledge" to refer to things that aren't "knowledge" but are something else.
Also as I suspected, your tencity in this is apparently related to being obsessed with knowledge itself. The level of tedium in your arguments is characteristic of someone living so in the intellect that neither sensory input (actual sensory-world experience) nor transrational cognition can easily penetrate.
In particular, I can respond to one part of your question: The "compensation" (your word) between "Jung's conscious and unconscious" refers to Ruach and Nephesh (subconsciousness), not Ruach and Neshamah (superconsciousness). As I mentioned before, the Jungian usage is confusing from what we now know because it doesn't (by itself) adequately distinguish between two primary aspects of unconsciousness. You're exactly on target for the relationship that must be established between Ruach and Nephesh. After that, Ruach's one task in relationship to Neshamah is to surrender to it.
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@SmokingMonkey said
"Ok let´s see, my point is that the capacity for avoid dogma impliccates in some way the approachment to a “kind of" knowledge less discriminative, a knowledge that integrates better duality"
Do you have a model that you're working with, or a theory that you'd like to throw out there? What is meant by "better duality"? I'm having trouble grasping the terms used:
Duality is extremely broad. Is this like a dichotomy? What is meant by "better"? Is "better" an improvement of the past? Does this imply that evolution in consciousness is moving in a "better" direction? In relation to what? If I'm getting off topic of your original point, feel free to steer me back. I'm just having trouble grasping what you're really getting at...
@SmokingMonkey said
"Anyway, ¿there´s a relationship of compensation or similar of any kind between Neshamah and the elements of the Ruach, or the Ruach in general? ¿What kind of relationship, if yes? Thanks."
What is meant by compensation? Are you implying that Neshamah "aids" Ruach in exchange for something? Or, perhaps, the other way around?
I think Jim already stated an accessible model of the relationship here:
@Jim Eshelman said
"However... it can be confusing because... the awakening of transrational processes can have a secondary effect of enabling one to handle vastly greater amounts of rational content. One isn't really handling it via rational processes (or even as rational content per se) - one is often leaping over it - see the neurological discoverings in the process of insight that I've been lecturing on under the neading of New Aeon Cognition."
More importantly, what do you think the relationship is? It seems as if you ask the questions, but you'd also like to provide your model of how things work. I'm interested to hear it.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"As I suspected, it's a semantical issue. You continue to use "knowledge" to refer to things that aren't "knowledge" but are something else."
Yeah... “Knowledge”, “Ruach”, "Briahtic cognition”… As I´ve been saying from several posts ago.
"The level of tedium in your arguments"
Mmm ok, but sincerely me neither liked to insist you in an answer too. And for the love of Dog..:
"someone living so in the intellect that neither sensory input (actual sensory-world experience) nor transrational cognition can easily penetrate. "
..I wasn´t thinking in nothing like this, hahaha.
"In particular, I can respond to one part of your question: The "compensation" (your word) between "Jung's conscious and unconscious" refers to Ruach and Nephesh (subconsciousness), not Ruach and Neshamah (superconsciousness). As I mentioned before, the Jungian usage is confusing from what we now know because it doesn't (by itself) adequately distinguish between two primary aspects of unconsciousness. You're exactly on target for the relationship that must be established between Ruach and Nephesh. After that, Ruach's one task in relationship to Neshamah is to surrender to it."
I was referring more exactly to the collective unconscious, not to the personal unconscious. But if it may envolve Nephesh element too, I have no idea.
@Frater 639 said
"What is meant by "better duality"?"
I was referring to a "Briahtic cognition", in a manner of speak.
"What is meant by compensation? Are you implying that Neshamah "aids" Ruach in exchange for something? Or, perhaps, the other way around?"
Well, I was wondering if could be such a relationship of compensation between both things, like in the Jung or the Lacanian models.
"More importantly, what do you think the relationship is? It seems as if you ask the questions, but you'd also like to provide your model of how things work. I'm interested to hear it.
"No, I´m just wondering things. I started asking something, and that follow to more things, that´s all.
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Exiting conversation.
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Dar es Alrah:
"Smoke - After reading your comments on this thread, I think you could do with analysing the relationship between some of these metaphysical constructs, and the workings of the brain and consciousness. Now usually, an investigation of this sort would not be required until after a person has experienced a state described as the attainment to Tiphareth. Generally, the mystical practises and metaphysical models endorsed by Jim's school are good tools to get you there. From there on in you would have an experience that gave you the perspective you need in order to investigate this subject further. However - I think there are a few people who (and this is not a criticism btw) who require an intellectual and systematic foundation for the work that they can use as a platform to bounce them forward into more empirical and experiential future work. It has to be open enough so that it doesn't shackle the mind down into involutions about what it already 'knows', and in order to do that it has to be as close a foundational model to reality as possible. I often see this clash between people who feel comfortable with skeptical meta-physics and those who pursue dynamic mystical practises. "
Again, I agree in the most of all that you say. But personally, I´m not really interested in nothing systematic in this sense. I could say I have my own mystical/spiritual path, specially with my paintings, though it can sound a little bit cliche or presumptuous. But, things like the Qabalah, and generally all Crowley work (well, the Thelema path in it´s most part) are truly greats aids and references for me to orientate, and I owe it a lot. Apart, I´m highly interested in the general destruction of this society we´re living, but that´s another history.
"Until the last 20 years it would not have been possible to direct your learning towards a good foundational model of the sort I've mentioned above, for the simple reason that we didn't have any that were capable of bridging the link between the spectrum of states inherent to consciousness (including mystical and transcendental type experiences) and the laws of the universe presented to us by the hard sciences. Now however, we do in the Penrose/Hameroff Orch OR model, (so there is no need to remain a 'mystical voyeur'), and what is more, this foundational model works perfectly well with the Book of the Law. Please see: The New Science of Quantum Consciousness and Thelema - for some initial work in that area."
That sounds very interesting. I´m going to take a look to that references and videos, thanks a lot!
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@Dar es Alrah said
"Now however, we do in the Penrose/Hameroff Orch OR model, (so there is no need to remain a 'mystical voyeur'), and what is more, this foundational model works perfectly well with the Book of the Law. Please see: The New Science of Quantum Consciousness and Thelema - for some initial work in that area."
Liked your commentary based on the models presented. Uncanny the shape of the CaMKII, huh?
Great links!
Have you looked into the rate of increase between the adrenal system products, calcium, and CaMKII (which in turn activate that increase in memory and awareness)? It fits nicely into the Orch OR model as well (as well as "classical" chakra models). Basically, it acts as a fuel for the increase in "activation" or "waking-state awareness" (norepinephrine is a bonding agent between synapses, allowing for increased memory), allowing more "information" to be sent to the microtubule (using the Orch OR model). Have you ever looked into Hobson's AIM model? It looks a lot like the Cube of Space...
Short summary (I recommend further research if you're interested):
willcov.com/bio-consciousness/diagrams/Consciousness%20Model%20-%20Hobsons%20AIM%20Model.htm
From a "practice" POV, it is interesting to see the correlation between the practices of Liber HHH and Liber O and working with the willed increases of "energized enthusiasm", and how that relates to adrenal system increases, and also the subsequent improvement of memory and other "rational" components...
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Dar es Alrah:
"They say there are a thousand and one paths up the mountain but when you look back all the paths have become one way. This is to say - we are all individuals in various states of development."
I agree, dear Alrah, but I must admit that I commit sin of spiritual pride, thinking that I have my own way, and no the trite way of the cattle of the majority on the streets (or in the mountains
). In this case I can´t do nothing, I´m pretty guilty."Painting is an excellent form of low level meditation that allows you to harness the archetypes of the collective unconscious and develop a number of aspects of your being. Very useful to the work. "
And not only an useful kind of meditation (which I think it´s not precisely a low level kind), or a way to catch collective archetypes, it can also be an excellent method of evocation, as I have seen sometimes.
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I'm sure we've all felt like that at some time or other in our lives, where the problems of society around us looked so huge that you wish you could just start it off from scratch again... but (as they say) then you'd throw out the baby (Lord of the Aeon) with the bath-water."You don´t know how I´d like to hope that, but again I can´t do nothing with this: I am cursed by a huge hate by this idiot world, which makes me think that, as it´s written, the meek shall inherit A FUCKING SHIT. I simply can´t refuse or ignore it in any way.. I have to live with that, which is no small deal, I must say..
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About the links that you posted, the videos of Deepak Chopra… I´m sorry but I can´t handle with this guy. But I´ve been reading the introduction of you´re article, and it make me curious about knowing more. In fact it reminds me that we´re talking about a posts before, about fitting theories in the Qabalah model, or in this case the Liber AL. It seems interesting, I´m gonna read it more carefully when I have time for it, and in case I´ll comment something about it. Thanks again for post it!
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Liber LXV 2:- Also the Holy One came upon me, and I beheld a white swan floating in the blue.
- Between its wings I sate, and the aeons fled away.
- Then the swan flew and dived and soared, yet no whither we went.
- A little crazy boy that rode with me spake unto the swan, and said:
- Who art thou that dost float and fly and dive and soar in the inane? Behold, these many aeons have passed; whence camest thou? Whither wilt thou go?
- And laughing I chid him, saying: No whence! No whither!
- The swan being silent, he answered: Then, if with no goal, why this eternal journey?
- And I laid my head against the Head of the Swan, and laughed, saying: Is there not joy ineffable in this aimless winging? Is there not weariness and impatience for who would attain to some goal?
- And the swan was ever silent. Ah! but we floated in the infinite Abyss. Joy! Joy!
White swan, bear thou ever me up between thy wings!
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Just a little point, related to this Carl Sagan extract that automatically reminds me what Jim said about the Neshamah as a sort of Tesseract in this threat. This is the video:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnURElCzGc0
I started imagining that those “points of contact” between different dimensions that Sagan mentioned could possibly refer, in the Kaballah paradigm we were talking about, to that points in where our subjectivity could call such things as “destiny”, “karma”, and so on manifest in our lives, that points in where all in reality “fits” as perfect meaning , synchronicities (maybe this is not exactly the term) or whatever, or at least that is what it seems from our subjectivity or “rational mechanisms”. Just wondering, some impressions I had about this after seeing the video.