Ordeal of Nephesh
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@evol said
"Do you know of any study or work that has been presented, that suggests the kind of ordeals and what they might look like as an initiate goes through the grades on the TOL?"
In what system? (It depends substantially on the system.)
We have an enormous amount of experience and information within Temple of Thelema, but I wouldn't presume a priori that it applies to any other system. (In addition to the overt and obvious ordeals, each degree in T.'.O.'.T.'. has two specific unwritten ordeals that the Chiefs use to silently assess progress. The person only learns about these after they've passed them. They're quite predictable!)
In a solid, well-grounded, genuinely contacted GD-rooted system, you can get a good idea of what to expect in each First Order grade from thinking of a dysfunction of the Element to which it is attributed. This will flare up to the extent that the principle is unbalanced in the person's psyche (actually, in the corresponding infantile or childhood life development phase). It is traditionally said, and appears to be true, that everyone has at least one of the four Elemental grades that is a snap for them, and at least one that is a significant ordeal.
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Very cool - this really underscores and gives purpose to some things that I have interest in. It is interesting to hear that in this context there is Guidance. The grades and ordeals providing for some of the fire that the aspirant must pass through to reach K&C.
Would you define this process in Thelemic Systems as much different than in other systems?
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@Jim Eshelman said
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I suppose (just thinking aloud at the moment) that they boil down to two main types: Ordeals of control and ordeals of surrender. "I more or less figured this out myself, but I wanted to see whether or not I was on the right track (it seems I am).
Thank you Jim.
93, 93/93.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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In a solid, well-grounded, genuinely contacted GD-rooted system, you can get a good idea of what to expect in each First Order grade from thinking of a dysfunction of the Element to which it is attributed. This will flare up to the extent that the principle is unbalanced in the person's psyche (actually, in the corresponding infantile or childhood life development phase). It is traditionally said, and appears to be true, that everyone has at least one of the four Elemental grades that is a snap for them, and at least one that is a significant ordeal."Jim, can you give the exact correspondence for this phases? (in months-years of life, or any other frame of reference)
I mean, which Element corresponds to which development phase in particular -
@danica said
"Jim, can you give the exact correspondence for this phases? (in months-years of life, or any other frame of reference)
I mean, which Element corresponds to which development phase in particular"After some further thought, I'm changing this answer a bit. (Deleted the old one.)
There are limits to what I can say, and in particular won't answer the "why would that be?" sort of question that usually comes back when I answer this sort of thing. - Some of these details would be simply too distinctive to Temple of Thelema's degree structure. Also, I'm not sure how much the GD-type structure would trigger this exact set of developmental recapitulations in general, and how much of it grew somehow out of T.'.O.'.T.'.'s particular egregore. - We didn't plan it this way, we just observed a striking (sometimes stunning) correspondence of the degrees to Erik Erikson's widely-respected plotting of developmental stages.
0° - 0-18 months
1° (Malkuth) - 1.5-3 yr
2° (Yesod) - 3-5 yr
3° (Hod) - 5-12 yr
4° (Netzach) - 12-18 yrThe Second Order work then follows the pattern of the three adult developmental stages.
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@evol said
"actually right now as i wrote this, i sense the deep strength in the choices one makes when they feel they are totally alone, the resources the draw upon when they feel they have nothing left...such is the growth of soul (i'm sure it/i/we grow other ways too)...."
I too feel that these choices are some of the most important ones, but I think the choices made at both poles are very important (i.e. the choices one makes when they're on top of the world).
I've noticed that in many cases, it seems like some deeper understanding of the situation is "veiled" or "hidden" from the individual making the choices, revealed after they make the choice. This matches what I've read about ordeals, but it's definitely a different experience actually, err, experiencing it.
I would say it's just getting a better understanding of a situation after having gone through it, but it seems bigger and broader than that, like there is at least one other distinct being mediating the process and the flow of understanding.
93, 93/93.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"0° - 0-18 months
1° (Malkuth) - 1.5-3 yr
2° (Yesod) - 3-5 yr
3° (Hod) - 5-12 yr
4° (Netzach) - 12-18 yr"Hi, does this mean years of age?
Also, did I read right that this is a reoccurring thing that is elemental in nature?
Does the Ordeal correspond to the achievement of a certain level of development?
Thank you.
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@horustheantichris said
"Hi, does this mean years of age?"
Yes.
"Also, did I read right that this is a reoccurring thing that is elemental in nature?"
Hard to say if it's elemental. The above pattern does emerge in a degree structure that also is elemental.
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Thank you.