Jung quotes on the Collective Unconscious and a comment
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Fantastic Sar, thanks. i can so relate to that.
I need help, though, on the 'things get dangerous' part. Could anybody offer another perspective.?? I understand how working with these areas answers many peculiar questions of mankind. However, why is it dangerous?
Q
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@Q789 said
"I need help, though, on the 'things get dangerous' part. Could anybody offer another perspective.?? I understand how working with these areas answers many peculiar questions of mankind. However, why is it dangerous?"
This is an older thread, but I just cant sit quietly:
there is a great misunderstanding regarding the Jung's unconsciousness, both personal and collective.
Transpersonal, truly Transpersonal can only be hinted at by the term 'unconsciousness'. Whole lot of crap can spring our from the unconsciousness (again, both personal and collective), as any good hypnotherapist can attest (memories of previous existences, age old symbolism, influences from our ancestors -epigenetics -, traumas etc...) none of which is transpersonal proper. Transpersonal begins only with absolute states of awareness, being Briatic or higher in nature (at least Higher Subtle or Causal Level as per Wilber).
It is simply misguided to regard unconsciousness equal to transpersonal. Of course, serious lack of experience and deeper transpersonal insight yields such misunderstanding.
As per your question, dangerous stuff (for the time being) comes out if you force it. When facing a serious trauma from childhood (sexual abuse, for example), one needs to tread very very lightly. So, no forcing when opening up and clearing out the "shadow".
As per transpersonal, too much Light can be harmful as well.
My favorite: my Angel let me burn myself with seriously overdoing the invocation of Ra. 10 days in the Operation I was torn to pieces, not being able to think straight, no eating, nor drinking.There are always ways to speed up one's way up the Initiation scale or directly to mental hospital. The safest road is the one that has a gentle caution built in it, IMO.
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The danger, I presume, is in mistaking the contents of the collective unconscious for ones personal unconsciousness.
In example, in the collective unconscious one might fight the aggregate of child molestation experiences.
If not approached carefully it is easy to fool one self that they have had such an experience.
As they will be reflected through things intimate and familiar to the explorer. -
@Dar es Allrah said
"... but where do the UFO's come into it?
"Well...herein lies the real danger... with the anal probing and all...
LOL -
"It is simply misguided to regard unconsciousness equal to transpersonal. Of course, serious lack of experience and deeper transpersonal insight yields such misunderstanding."
I'm curious. Do you find that error in the quote or thread anywhere?
I don't notice anyone here equating the two. I only see that transpersonal experiences are included in the overarching concept of the collective unconscious.
"The deepest we can reach in our exploration of the unconscious mind is the layer where man is no longer a distinct individual"
The quote itself suggests layers, which fits with your own description of transpersonal.
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@Bereshith said
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I'm curious. Do you find that error in the quote or thread anywhere? "No, of course not.
Sorry for not being more precise.@Bereshith said
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I don't notice anyone here equating the two. I only see that transpersonal experiences are included in the overarching concept of the collective unconscious.
"Yes.
It is a thin line, to be sure. Not to impute anyone's contribution here, it is important to separate the two concepts.
I should have said that in my post to start with, I agree. -
I was a little confused, but I'm glad you posted.
I hadn't heard of Wilber or, it would be more correct to say that I've never looked into the Transpersonal stuff at all.
Interesting.
Thanks.
P.S. Material UFOs are okay. But I won't allow the interdimensional aliens to appear to the masses in anything other than material form until humans have a better understanding of their own psyches. Otherwise, they won't have the first clue how to distinquish between the two, and madness would ensue. The Prime Directive starts with the understanding that there are things for which we ourselves are not ready.
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@Bereshith said
"I was a little confused, but I'm glad you posted.
I hadn't heard of Wilber or, it would be more correct to say that I've never looked into the Transpersonal stuff at all.
Interesting.
Thanks.
"Welcome.
Wilber is a rather influential writer, a genius for producing various charts (i.e. mapping states of awareness). Kaballah is ok, no need for Wilber.
Beri'ah and up is what I refer to as transpersonal proper. -
You know... If I didn't feel the need to find some way of translating what I've experienced to other people in a language they can accept (i.e. without reference to religion), I'd be a lot better off, I think.
But there's this pesky impulse to teach without which I wouldn't know what to do with myself, and no one is interested in religion or religious language anymore.
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@Dar es Allrah said
"Love never goes out of fashion though."
I know I have a million faces, but today, sincerely, I wish I could remember what it was like to try to love the universe.
As soon as I experienced the realization that it was all one thing and that the main thing was to love it, my experience of it changed as I was ...seemingly... ruthlessly forced to continue admitting over and over, "This too is Her. This atrocity too is Her. This counter to my argument too is Her. This opposite of my own desire too is Her." - until I just don't really give as much of a fuck about a lot of things like I used to anymore. It's all God/Her/Reality/Whatever. Even the hate. So, what's the point of loving it?
It was if Babalon enjoyed torturing the young, inexperienced fool who thought he was strong enough to love her. I don't mean to blaspheme the gods, but I've never understood why it all went down that way.
I do notice in myself that I have only mirrored this ruthless correctness with others, demanding they come to the knowledge as was demanded of me by the one I thought I could love. Something about that's probably incorrect, but that's how it went down.
I'm not sure I remember how to love it. Except, I guess I want to be sure not to break its rules and to try to make sure other people don't break the rules of Reality either. That's about the best I got these days.
I really, really wanted it to be this grand love story where myself and my loved ones were daily revealed more of how it all works and how wonderful it all is. I've played the game a few times to try to get something like that to happen on larger or smaller scales. But it never works. Just more and more coming back to me about how ignorance has a right to remain ignorant. Hatred has a right to remain hateful. Etc. Ad Infinitum. Who gives a shit?
Some days, I feel like I'd pull the fucking lever on all of it if I could. But I never actually act on that. There's still some kind of hope down in there.
Anyways, I resisted writing all this up earlier, but you kinda pushed a button.
I have moments where everything makes sense and is cool, but they're fleeting.
I know, I know... I need to return to daily meditation and practice. Gotcha.
Anyways.
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@Bereshith said
"You know... If I didn't feel the need to find some way of translating what I've experienced to other people in a language they can accept (i.e. without reference to religion), I'd be a lot better off, I think.
But there's this pesky impulse to teach without which I wouldn't know what to do with myself, and no one is interested in religion or religious language anymore."
Exactly.
Usually, as soon as one mentions God, zooom, the concept of the church kicks in; hence the neutral transpersonal psychology - for me, that is.
I also teach, and it is easier to pass on the empirical knowledge using mostly technical concepts. -
@Bereshith said
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As soon as I experienced the realization that it was all one thing and that the main thing was to love it, my experience of it changed as I was ...seemingly... ruthlessly forced to continue admitting over and over, "This too is Her. This atrocity too is Her. This counter to my argument too is Her. This opposite of my own desire too is Her." - until I just don't really give as much of a {****} about a lot of things like I used to anymore. It's all God/Her/Reality/Whatever. Even the hate. So, what's the point of loving it? "Everything is Her, but that doesn't help much.
It is only Her presence, direct connection with Her, that can release the pain, nothing else.@Bereshith said
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It was if Babalon enjoyed torturing the young, inexperienced fool who thought he was strong enough to love her. I don't mean to blaspheme the gods, but I've never understood why it all went down that way. "She is not enjoying, IMO:
In Bhakti yoga (the real deal, Gaurahari's lineage, not the Vivekananda's), this is the way the God/Goddess makes one yearn for Him/Her even more. He/She gives a blessing and then disappears from sight, leaving the poor soul alone. Alone, devoid of everything, dead to the daily world.
This is His/Her blessing.And once you have truly seen the Light, the darkness becomes really dark.
I have been down that road. Last year after I came back from India, the pain was so terrible I almost died. I was living with tears in my eyes for weeks. Nothing helped, not even nondual Samadhi. I was like a half dead corpse walking around.It hurt, still does, but now I know She is with me, it is only that my karmic body is clearing out the negative impressions. Suffering and inner pain, in this context, is actually a way out.
@Bereshith said
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I do notice in myself that I have only mirrored this ruthless correctness with others, demanding they come to the knowledge as was demanded of me by the one I thought I could love. Something about that's probably incorrect, but that's how it went down.I'm not sure I remember how to love it. Except, I guess I want to be sure not to break its rules and to try to make sure other people don't break the rules of Reality either. That's about the best I got these days.
I really, really wanted it to be this grand love story where myself and my loved ones were daily revealed more of how it all works and how wonderful it all is. I've played the game a few times to try to get something like that to happen on larger or smaller scales. But it never works. Just more and more coming back to me about how ignorance has a right to remain ignorant. Hatred has a right to remain hateful. Etc. Ad Infinitum. Who gives a (****)?
Some days, I feel like I'd pull the {*******} lever on all of it if I could. But I never actually act on that. There's still some kind of hope down in there.
"<deep sigh>
I can relate.
<tears in my eyes>@Bereshith said
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Anyways, I resisted writing all this up earlier, but you kinda pushed a button.I have moments where everything makes sense and is cool, but they're fleeting.
I know, I know... I need to return to daily meditation and practice. Gotcha.
Anyways.
"I have no answers,
I just pray for Her darshan, direct presence.
Living on a prayer... -
Today, I think I'm on to something.
Self - Other That's what it's all about.
Like I said, there was this moment where I experienced the realization that It was all One Thing and that the experience of It was all about the relationship between Self and Other under various forms.
It wasn't that I had one experience, it was that there were so many different experiences that resulted from that one revelation.
I've been thinking about all my "many faces" and all of the different kinds of perspectives that I have experienced and write about, sometimes glowingly, sometimes depressively.
My problem is that it's all just kind of jumbled together. One day, I'll wake up in a bad mood and sort of automatically go into one kind of experience. So, one day, it'll be my relationship with Babalon, which needs work, and I'll just feel like, "Woman! Do what I say! Why you gotta do me like this?" On another day, I'll have experiences that are more along the lines of relating to my Angel. On another day, I'll be on a head of steam, convinced I'm a king or a hermit, or whatever.
It reminds me of that quote that goes something like, "Wherever you are, you will have a companion." And I find that to be absolutely true.
I think I've spent a lot of time trying to sort of piece together "where I am on the Tree" in my experience, as if I were only in one stage, and I just needed to figure which one.
I think really, I'm all over the Tree in terms of my experiences, depending on the circumstances of the day, changing "companions" (changing my formula for the experience of Self/Other) all the time. THAT's what I've been struggling with - finding some consistency in the experience.
A: Argh...!
B: From here, I might be able to figure out how to stabilize all this into a consistent, intelligible, stable, evolving path of progress.Thanks again for your responses.
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@Dar es Allrah said
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Some of this is physiological. Dying takes energy. Nearly dying (getting really out there in the light) takes it out of the body. You have to treat these excursions like a shaman - (you 'do it naturally' but the after-effects are largely the same). A shaman prepares himself beforehand but also knows how to prepare for the after-effects. "Yes.
I am taking precautions now. Cellfood it is called. It helps.
Thank you for a great post.
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@Bereshith said
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I think I've spent a lot of time trying to sort of piece together "where I am on the Tree" in my experience, as if I were only in one stage, and I just needed to figure which one.
"I usually consult my Superior.
On the other hand, it might also be called freedom: being and playing many roles.
It is my experience, however, that the Attainment does gravitate to a specific "position" on the map of your choosing. It is quite naturally to see specific properties manifest after attainment, say, K&C of HGA.In the end, HGA has all the answers. By His mere presence.
"Dost thou fail? Art thou sorry? Is fear in thine heart?
Where I am these are not. "
(AL II: 46-47)