How do you become a Thelemite?
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@Jim Eshelman said
"I've been known to take my text copy of it and play it through the speech system of my Kindle."
That would create some interesting emphasis patterns, I would think... (thinking about trying it myself now...)
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It would do no wrong to call us such, but why bother?
Do your Will and nothing less and the rest will fall into place. -
@Frater INRI said
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@Swamiji said
"Everyone who accepts the Law of Thelema: "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law/Love is the law, love under Will" is a Thelemite. To be one you just have to accept that this is the fundamental formula of truth in this age."Ehm, if I may, I'd add here that realization of one's Will is needed, not mere embracing the "I can do whatever I want" notion."
Absolutely. I thought that was implicit, but you're probably right that it ought to be stated explicitly, perhaps even here.
93!
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@Swamiji said
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@Frater INRI said
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@Swamiji said
"Everyone who accepts the Law of Thelema: "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law/Love is the law, love under Will" is a Thelemite. To be one you just have to accept that this is the fundamental formula of truth in this age."Ehm, if I may, I'd add here that realization of one's Will is needed, not mere embracing the "I can do whatever I want" notion."
Absolutely. I thought that was implicit, but you're probably right that it ought to be stated explicitly, perhaps even here.
93!"
Not trying to split hairs here, but Will and will usually imply very different concepts. "Love is the law, love under will" -- the will is left uncapitalized.
If you'll notice, Jim has capitalized 'Love and Will' in his tag line. Which is ANOTHER POV -- or perhaps, a more INTEGRATED concept.
Also, I think one can be a Thelemite regardless of realizing their will/Will. Realizing one's Will is something that can be hardly encompassed fully in the intellectual realm. As a Probationer, I did not know (or Know) love OR will...or their relationship...but there was commitment to the Work and an Oath...
**I definitely agree **that it's not "do what you want to do". It's funny -- Do what thou wilt usually causes examination of what "Do" means, what "thou" means, and what "will" means...
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I don't know if this will be helpful at all, but I thought I might share just one aspect of what becoming a Thelemite has meant for me. I had first encountered Thelema in the context of studying magic, and then maybe 14 or 15 months ago I began to study it as a philosophy for living. I realized that in a certain sense I had been a Thelemite long before I had ever heard that word; but I also realized that many aspects of my life were not being lived in accordance with those beliefs. A huge part of my work since that time has been examining and overhauling my beliefs, my relationships, how I spend me time, how I treat other people, etc. in order to all the time bring more and more of my existence in line with the Law. In other words, identifying as a Thelemite and trying my damndest to live as one has been a process of uncovering deep parts of myself and then expressing and living them. While I would not yet claim to know my True Will, I feel that this work brings me closer and closer to it all the time.
Conversely (and also on the subject of doing your will and not simply what you want, while getting away from standard examples which usually seem to revolve around whether or not it's okay to hurt other people), I find it increasingly difficult all the time to put off my daily study and practices in favor of say, having a few glasses of wine and watching a movie after work--which is precisely what I tried to do last night, but within ten minutes I had shut off the laptop, robed and made my way into the Temple!
Being a Thelemite is also becoming a deeply religious commitment for me, but I don't really want to get into that...
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@Frater Potater said
"Not to be a stick in the mud, but when I read the responses that said "you just accept the law", it kind of reminded me of the whole christian "you just accept jesus as your savior" dogma."
You are the only one so far to type "just accept the law." I typed "You accept the Law of Will." That's a lot more than passively just accepting that someone is correct.
In fact, you know you are "become a Thelemite" when you start doing. "Be" and "come" together are qualities of Nuit and Hadit.
You are. There's no question about that. Descartes proved it to you. Going, that's what only you can prove. You don't ask anyone's permission when your a Thelemite, you simply do. You don't need a reward when you are a Thelemite, you simply are.
I guess that is Just.
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@Frater Potater said
"Not to be a stick in the mud, but when I read the responses that said "you just accept the law", it kind of reminded me of the whole christian "you just accept jesus as your savior" dogma. "
And what's the problem? Those statements are really more like zero-level criteria than dogma. It's difficult to see how you could call yourself a Christian (without seriously pushing the boundaries of that term) without accepting Christ as your savior; likewise, how can you be a Thelemite without accepting the Law of Thelema? Would you call a statement like "to be a Rolling Stones fan you have to like The Rolling Stones" dogmatic?
None of this is to say that Thelema doesn't have dogma.
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I think the issue is wrapped up in one of the things I said early on: There is no standardized definition. Part of there being no standardized definition is that people draw the threshold (the "line in the sand").
The definition, "Just accept the Law of Thelema" (or some similar variation) is, perhaps, the most basic but, in some people's minds it is so minimal as to be offensive.
Soror Meral often asserted to me that she didn't see how one could be a Thelemite if they hadn't already attained to the Knowledge & Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel. After initially being very admiring and in awe of that definition, I came to think of it as too extreme. I do admire that she was putting it in terms of actual attainment, or the active state of one's being, rather than in terms of adopting a label or philosophical adherance (immediately separating it from any other -ism I could think of). I also understood that this was Phyllis being offended for, and protective of, Thelema overall because of her deep disgust for "most people who go around calling themselves Thelemites." She was particularly eager to have no reason for anyone to equate "real Thelemites" with the Thelemic masses to whom she was most exposed outside her immediate circle of students. - I, on the other hand, thought we already had a perfectly good word for those who met her definition, viz., Adept - or, in Thelemic terms, Lover.
So... my main point isn't to enforce a particular definition. I usually avoid pinning it down. It seems more ecumenical that way <g>. Personally, I usually would lean toward a definition much narrower than "just accept the Law" (or even "just accept The Book of the Law") because I'd like to divorce it from "adherants" and "philosphical adoption," and think of it more as referring to the innate nature of a person and their soul's oreintation. But (to repeat), I'm not pushing any definition at all here.
I'd personally prefer to go down the road of "'Thelemite' is not something you call yourself, but something it's OK for others to label you with." But that does put the dampers on the growth of a movement, so I tend to get out of the way of those who want to empower others to call themselves Thelemites.
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@Iamus said
"None of this is to say that Thelema doesn't have dogma."
Dogma (by the dictionary definition) is by no means a necessary component of Thelema. See Jim's post immediately above for an example.
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@Frater Potater said
"Not to be a stick in the mud, but when I read the responses that said "you just accept the law", it kind of reminded me of the whole christian "you just accept jesus as your savior" dogma."
Well, I think a big difference is that in the Old Aeon, the Microcosm was considered within the Macrocosm, and now, with the New Aeon, the Macrocosm can be considered within the Microcosm. The inside out, not the outside in...
So, as opposed to Christist dogma, the Law is within you, and the Way and the Truth and the Life IS the Will (which I think Christ "said"
). The Going is United as Will is Love -- the Desire together with (and Going toward) the Desired.Subjective:
In my experience, there was the "I" at first, which was an amalgamation of atavistic, ego-identity thought-forms holding on for dear "life", then the Self began communion with the self...this came across as learning to will or knowing love through the supreme method of Silence...blah, blah, blah, ad nauseum...
Objective:
Then, we have group opinion. An objective aggregate of subjective experiences. All different, but agreeing on common points...not all true personally, but convenient for relativity purposes, and a product nonetheless...
Relative:
So, the definition is elusive because, in semantic-land, being a Thelemite is a subjective reality -- to use the Hon. Bertrand Russell's term...but we share our reality together, don't we?
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@Jim Eshelman said
"The definition, "Just accept the Law of Thelema" (or some similar variation) is, perhaps, the most basic but, in some people's minds it is so minimal as to be offensive."
To my mind, it's not too minimal but the opposite -- too broad. (But I'm not offended
) Some of the most successful Thelemites I know have never heard the word Thelema or read the Book of the Law, and couldn't care less about Crowley and magick. -
To expand a bit on my earlier comment...
I have all ways been of the school that it is "someone else" calling "us" Thelemites.
As it would seem a "true Thelemite" would be 'too busy' following their Will, doing their Will, to bother with labels or considerations of whether or not they are a Thelemite.Taking this in with "yonder beggar may be a King concealed": The idea of being a 'beggar' expressing a persons True Will probably does not sit well with people. They want to believe that doing their Will is going to bring them riches, fame, great armies.
They talk about all the 'great things' fellow 'Thelemites' have done, as if it were these 'great things' that defined who they were.
But you are alone.
There is no God.
Only our Lord & Lady,
the direful judgements of RHK! -
@Dar es Allrah said
"Mayabe..."
You're hilarious! -
@Avshalom Binyamin said
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@Iamus said
"None of this is to say that Thelema doesn't have dogma."Dogma (by the dictionary definition) is by no means a necessary component of Thelema. See Jim's post immediately above for an example.
"I only meant to point out what I wasn't saying. I was intentionally not making any positive statement about dogma in Thelema. I thought my earlier statements might have sounded like an implicit assertion of the non-existence of Thelemic dogma, so I was trying be clear (could've tried harder, it looks like).
@Uni_Verse said
"As it would seem a "true Thelemite" would be 'too busy' following their Will, doing their Will, to bother with labels or considerations of whether or not they are a Thelemite.
"Maybe that's true at a certain level, but I can say with confidence for myself and several other young, self-described "Thelemites" I'm close with that identifying ourselves as such has had a tremendous, transformative impact on our lives and magick. Will there come a time when some or all of us will outgrow the use of that label? Maybe. Probably. But I think it's important to remember that many self-professed Thelemites are busy seeking their will, and that--following suggestions made by AC himself--the Law can be a guide for navigating inner and outer worlds that one does not yet understand. In absence of any certain knowledge about what my True Will is (there's a growing list of what it isn't) I have never regretted resorting to my (admittedly rudimentary) understanding of Thelema and its Holy Books to govern my life, specifically my relations with others, my magical work and in the decision to use much of my time and energy attempting to spread the Law (I'm not talking about preaching or proselytizing, though) and manifest the energies of the AEon.
@Jim Eshelman said
"I do admire that she was putting it in terms of actual attainment, or the active state of one's being, rather than in terms of adopting a label or philosophical adherance (immediately separating it from any other -ism I could think of)."
After spending a good year now within a certain social circle whose members profess to be Thelemites I too often feel the need to make a distinction between those who merely profess and those who actually live their beliefs, but, following on what I said above, I think that seeking the Will qualifies you just as much as having actually attained. I also, however, have no real interest in setting up definitions and would never presume to tell anyone they weren't a real Thelemite (doesn't stop me from thinking it however...
) -
I think it is interesting that the dynamic of this conversation takes on two distinct POVs. One from within, one from without. We seem to fall into dis-ease when it comes to how we judge that label for others, and there isn't an issue dealing with deciding how to apply that label to ourselves.
Funny how that works.
It seems the labels can be left to others. Maybe that's a useful interpretation of the verse:
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Who calls us Thelemites will do no wrong, if he look but close into the word. For there are therein Three Grades, the Hermit, and the Lover, and the man of Earth. Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.*If you want to label, go for it. Considering labels of anything can be judged by their usefulness. Like St. Paul said: "Everything is permissible"--but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible"--but not everything is constructive. Wise beyond years.
How do you become a Thelemite? IMHO it is never past tense. It is Becoming.
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@Dar es Allrah said
"Mayabe..."
You sat tomato, I say space-time anomaly.
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"WHEN you call yourself an Indian or a Muslim or a Christian or a European, or anything else, you are being violent. Do you see why it is violent? Because you are separating yourself from the rest of mankind. When you separate yourself by belief, by nationality, by tradition, it breeds violence. So a man who is seeking to understand violence does not belong to any country, to any religion, to any political party or partial system; he is concerned with the total understanding of mankind."
Khrishnamurti
Ā
Do you say
KLI-tor-us
Or
Cli-TOR-us..... -
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@Frater 639 said
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How do you become a Thelemite? IMHO it is never past tense. It is Becoming."
ave, Frater! this is the gist of it!
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When I created my account on this forum a few weeks ago, I'd recently come back from three years in a spiritual wilderness of skepticism, non-believe, and nihilism. I was finding it hard to "believe" in anything spiritual/mystical. Too much skepticism. I had in a sense taken the "not attributing objective reality" warning in Liber O too far (though that wasn't consciously the source of my problems; long story.)
The point is, I was pretty doubtful (at least consciously) about spirits, "magick", any of it.
Yet if you really pinned me down in conversation, I would have had to admit on some level, even in the darkest days, I was a Thelemite. Because psychologically, I thought of it in these terms: "Figure out what it is which most truly animates your soul [metaphorically], what makes you feel the most alive, what path makes you most a 'force of nature', living un-self-consciously, and do that." Without the notion of a soul (as an objective reality), or an HGA, or any of those things, I feel that's about as close to an expression of Thelema as I could get at the time.
Now, when people ask me "Are you a Thelemite", I think of my Christian friends -- and I have a few -- who are in tune with science, socially conscious, loving towards gay people, giving to the poor, etc. And I think of how apprehensive they get about being asked "Are you a Christian" when the person often means to ask "Are you a bigot who hates gay people and science?" And they don't want to be associated with "Christianity" on those terms.
Similarly, I've known people who are on the fringes of the occult "movement" or "lifestyle", who've had enough bad experiences with people who call themselves Thelemites, that they think all Thelemites are selfish, arrogant uber-hedonists who do drugs at wild parties and indulge in sexual excesses and never call them back.
So when I am asked "Are you a Thelemite" my answer is, when possible, to start a conversation, and hopefully fix some misconceptions about what that actually means. But when it's apparent that the person actually grasps the essential principles of the Law, I can say "Yes, I seek to understand and follow my True Will."