Black brother and his fate...
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@Dar es Allarah said
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@x-munki said
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@Swamiji said
" There are also those who can get stuck in the Abyss because they can't get rid of a single idea, a single thing they hold to be true, or a single aspiration."Oh yeah, that's me... I just couldn't let go of a certain aspiration/"ideal" (although there were all sorts of peculiar messages from the universe clearly pointing that I SHOULD let go of it NOW, i guess), so I got stuck and eventually withered.
Nicely put."
Did you eventually let go of it and felt the angel return to you? Not that it actually goes away but it feels like that..."
Seeing you guys and gals speak about the Abyss like that, I have a question if I may:
have you crossed it already?If so, would you be willing to elaborate a bit on the subject, please?
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I could be wrong about this but,
when I just asked myself if I have ever crossed the abyss,
and I reflected on what I thought I knew that to mean,
(which entailed ordeals, tests, and basic ripping to shreads of each molecule of my psyche and rebuilding),
and what I thought I understood as the requirement to be able to withstand and survive the ordeals, ect...I wondered if I was on the otherside,
Because it just seems as if my life can be summed into
The time before the ordeals
And now. -
"Seeing you guys and gals speak about the Abyss like that, I have a question if I may:
have you crossed it already?If so, would you be willing to elaborate a bit on the subject, please?"
Definitely no, I'm still way too full of myself, too many projections, to much bull****, to much me, and not enough OUMH.
I'm very much a beginner.
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I'm not trying to single anyone out here and I'm not necessarily even talking about anyone involved in this discussion, but I've heard so many times (on forums, in certain books and from magicians I've known personally) that they've "crossed the abyss". Which I generall took to be a claim to have attained the spiritual level equivalant to A.'.A.'. 8=3, but upon further questioning it's generally revealed that most of these people have no real attainment in magic or mysticism, and have usually not even attained K&C. It sounds to me like this is based on understanding the Abyss and its Ordeal in very poetic, metaphoric ways rather than as technical terms describing specific events/states/experiences/etc.
For most of them what would seem to be more accurate would be to say "I suffered from Major Depresson and it was a transformational experience." (Though plenty are just full of s**t.) Which is not at all to belittle that experience. I know first hand how intense, painful and ultimately how profoundly life changing it can be. The shamanic concept of a spiritual illness is probably appropriate for many people, but even there it's appropriately seen an early initiatory experience, setting up the conditions that will one day allow one to become a shaman. I also know that the language of being cast into an abyss, or having your ego ripped to shreds, losing everything that you are, and then being born anew on the other side are very appropriate to this experience.
I'm not trying to criticize or deny anyone's attainment here. My real point is that I think it's very dangerous to prematurely believe that you've attained so highly. And tying this back into the main topic here, I imagine that many Black Brothers would be completely ignorant of their condition, deluding themselves into thinking that they had transcended and lost their egos.
Obviously, most of the people who say these things aren't Black Brothers, since they've never made it anywhere near 7=4, but that's not to say that some of them aren't capable of getting there someday...
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@Dar es Allarah said
"I think we need a special space set aside for people undergoing the abyss. Somewhere away from families and children. And this needs to be an international inter-temple effort.
There is a special category newly set aside under the recent review of the DSM that deals with ‘spiritual problems’ that I believe we can use to get funding for such an effort."
Would such segregation prevent them from actually crossing the Abyss? I mean... don't they need to assimilate everything in the end to realize "the end" (which, really... has a lot to do with what you are recommending you segregate them from... ie, everything else that is not "them").
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@Dar es Allarah said
"I think we need a special space set aside for people undergoing the abyss. Somewhere away from families and children. And this needs to be an international inter-temple effort. "
I'd really disagree. I don't think this would really be helpful except maybe in terms of cultivating delusion.
And I think its a mistake to believe that you need to separate yourself from your families and children, job, or any other sorts of "worldly engagements" in order to achieve Enlightenment; you have to do something of this to a certain degree to attain the K&C of the HGA, but that's different. It goes back precisely to what I was talking about earlier in the thread: the HGA can be achieved through efforts like this, crossing the abyss cannot.93!
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@Iamus said
"I'm not trying to single anyone out here and I'm not necessarily even talking about anyone involved in this discussion, but I've heard so many times (on forums, in certain books and from magicians I've known personally) that they've "crossed the abyss". Which I generall took to be a claim to have attained the spiritual level equivalant to A.'.A.'. 8=3, but upon further questioning it's generally revealed that most of these people have no real attainment in magic or mysticism, and have usually not even attained K&C. It sounds to me like this is based on understanding the Abyss and its Ordeal in very poetic, metaphoric ways rather than as technical terms describing specific events/states/experiences/etc.
For most of them what would seem to be more accurate would be to say "I suffered from Major Depresson and it was a transformational experience." (Though plenty are just full of s**t.) Which is not at all to belittle that experience. I know first hand how intense, painful and ultimately how profoundly life changing it can be. The shamanic concept of a spiritual illness is probably appropriate for many people, but even there it's appropriately seen an early initiatory experience, setting up the conditions that will one day allow one to become a shaman. I also know that the language of being cast into an abyss, or having your ego ripped to shreds, losing everything that you are, and then being born anew on the other side are very appropriate to this experience.
I'm not trying to criticize or deny anyone's attainment here. My real point is that I think it's very dangerous to prematurely believe that you've attained so highly. And tying this back into the main topic here, I imagine that many Black Brothers would be completely ignorant of their condition, deluding themselves into thinking that they had transcended and lost their egos.
Obviously, most of the people who say these things aren't Black Brothers, since they've never made it anywhere near 7=4, but that's not to say that some of them aren't capable of getting there someday..."
I'm totally with you on this one, I lose count of the amount of times I've heard people claim Mastery, or claim to have 'crossed the abyss', which to my mind means complete enlightenment, only to then come out with some damned fool thing or other that suggests the opposite. They assert that they have totally lost the ego, only to fall for the same ego tricks and frailties as the rest of us, to be honest it's quite laughable.
Now to be honest I'm no judge, because as I said I'm just a beginner, but the experiences which I am going through right now in my life/practice might once have been construed as abyss/like (Thwarting of ambitions, ego being examined to the point of destruction, deep depressions, introversion to the point of morbidity, and yet a strange detached equanimity in the centre of it all etc etc ad infinitum, ad nausium) But in fact they are classic examples of 32nd path phenomena. As this path is connected in a way to Binah it does share some qualities, and so the confusion is understandable, although not excusable.
It is painful for ego to have to accept the fact that what it thought was real turns out to be not real, that what it thought was definite is in fact only transitory. I am beginning to recognize this, accepting it is a whole other matter.In short, I beleive that often what the ego would like to classify as Abyss experience is simply the opening up into Yesodic/Yetziratic awareness. It is pretty basic psychology that when the ego finds a space bigger than itself it first tries to inflate to fill that space.
Also I totally disagree with the idea of a 'special space set aside for those undergoing the abyss experience'. In a rosecrucian tradition this is completely ridiculous, for the reasons set forth by Swanji and others, basically you can't become the All by hiding yourself away from it all.
I've never met a black brother, that I know of, although I have met quite a few people, often in occult circles, who have their heads stuck so firmly up their own backsides that they spend their whole lives crawling around on all fours looking for the lightswitch.
Or maybe I'm just jealous of other peoples claims and just venting my ego's frustrations? I don't know, best to just tend ones own work.
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@Iamus said
"... what would seem to be more accurate would be to say "I suffered from Major Depresson and it was a transformational experience." (Though plenty are just full of s**t.) Which is not at all to belittle that experience. ... The shamanic concept of a spiritual illness is probably appropriate for many people, but even there it's appropriately seen an early initiatory experience, setting up the conditions that will one day allow one to become a shaman. I also know that the language of being cast into an abyss, or having your ego ripped to shreds, losing everything that you are, and then being born anew on the other side are very appropriate to this experience.
... I imagine that many Black Brothers would be completely ignorant of their condition, deluding themselves into thinking that they had transcended and lost their egos.
Obviously, most of the people who say these things aren't Black Brothers ..."
/signed, and /signed.
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I get the impression that a lot of people who claim to have crossed the abyss forget the fourth power of the Sphynx. Which power can be related to the element Earth and the letter and path of Tau, which as hinted at by Archaeus, would suggest that they are going through an ordeal on this path and I would add failing to ground it, instead dispersing the energy through superfluous speach.
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My 2 cents would be less that it was somehow wrong / superfluous to speak of such an experience, but that a lot of context in the form of definition of the words used, at least to an extent shared and shareable spiritual experience and states of heightened consciousness as well, a model of (trans?)human evolution one can reference to (that understands the difference between map and territory+) and probably also some personal contact and knowledge (who the other claiming the experience is) are nescessary to have a meaningful conversation about it.
That said, I have come to the conclusion that it might indeed be better to stay silent about certain things if blabbing about them might lead to more confusion on all sides than enlightening a subject or finding something new out about it.
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@Archaeus said
" But in fact they are classic examples of 32nd path phenomena. As this path is connected in a way to Binah it does share some qualities, and so the confusion is understandable, although not excusable."
Huh, I never made that connection before. That's especially interesting to me becasue during my spiritual awakening/depressive illness I identified very strongly with Saturn, despite knowing very little about magick or even astrology at the time.@Dar es Allarah said
"I think we need a special space set aside for people undergoing the abyss. Somewhere away from families and children. And this needs to be an international inter-temple effort.
There is a special category newly set aside under the recent review of the DSM that deals with ‘spiritual problems’ that I believe we can use to get funding for such an effort."
While I can hardly claim authority or first hand experience with this, it strikes me as extrememly troubling that an Exempt Adept preparing to cross the abyss would need to receive mental health services in this way. Additionally, I always understood that during this process, the lower self (body, intellect, etc.) goes on as always, holding down a job, carrying out family obligations, etc., but in a higher sense the Adapt is not really present in these things. -
"*Liber LXV *I:59. Stained is the purple of thy mouth, O brilliant one, with the white glory of the lips of Adonai.
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The foam of the grape is like the storm upon the sea; the ships tremble and shudder; the shipmaster is afraid.
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That is thy drunkenness, O holy one, and the winds whirl away the soul of the scribe into the happy haven.
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O Lord God! let the haven be cast down by the fury of the storm! Let the foam of the grape tincture my soul with Thy light!
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More! MORE! MORE..!!!
I'm just going to speak honestly from experience for a moment. Make of it what you will, but I do not claim to have crossed the Abyss.
There was a moment in my past where I was rapt in miraculous seeming synchronicity. I could not even think a thought without the universe seemingly quickly reacting by supplying more information on the subject. I don't really know how to describe it, but it was the most impressive thing I had ever experienced up to that point. I thought surely that I had achieve K&C. In reality, I knew next to nothing about it in order to draw such a conclusions. But in my mind, I had crossed a barrier into a new way of living. I conceived of it as a permanent change of experience for me. In that rapture, I wanted More! MORE! MORE..! And I asked even to cross the Abyss - to be made complete! I truly wanted to be the kind of person that only saw the Divine in every interaction.
So began the most maddening experience of my life. I cannot say for certain that this was the Abyss. I only know my vocabulary was limited, and my intention included this term. I don't think I'm entirely alone in such thinking and actions.
That sense of perfect synchronicity evolved into ...how to describe it... a sense of perfect challenge(?). When I came across another person, no matter who it might be (in fact, even the dog was involved in this), there was the inner sense that all these things were in reality perfectly knowledgable - that an aspect of them, at least, was fully enlightened. And OH! how I wanted to interact with such beings! But each and everything they said seemed like a deception - a part they were bound to play instead of being that thing that I felt each to be. "Woman! Family! Friends! Why do you all act like I'm crazy? You know who you are! You know what you are capable of! Let's all be that!" But the seeming deception continued. In each case, it was if there was always the unspoken challenge: "What makes you say I'm not being that right now? What part of me are you calling less than Divine?" So, I attempted to give up all judgment and just accept what I experienced. I laughed at people being mean. I winked at people when they stole. When I was corrected for this, I felt the correction too must be Divine! And I developed an intense internal conflict.
And then the Game began. Who would I let get away with what? There were, afterall, no real rules to this "place." Anything could happen it seemed, and much unexplainable by me did happen. There were times when I feared I would change universes just by closing my eyes - and who knew where I would end up. The very elements themselves seemed to attempt to rebel against me, as if it was my fault and my fault alone that they were not free from the limitation of manifestation. I began to identify with Saturn. There had to be rules for there to be manifestation. There had to be limitation. Of course, you have to remember that all of this was layered into my experience of everyday reality: watching TV, going to work, interacting at home. I had to stand for order, or there would be only incoherent madness. There were plotlines within plotlines projected onto every event. It was at this point that I began to identify as a Libra in relation to everything else. What had seemed mysterious rebellious elements began to be understood as zodiacal permutations of mind and being, of which I was representative of one ray in relationship to the others.
I still find myself running up against strong zodiacal characters. I'll react to someone for a while, and then I'll have a moment of realization that this is my Libra in reaction to someone's Capricorn. Aries, directly across, probably interacts with me the most. He's either claiming his right to battle, or I'm restricting it out of the principle of needed equilibrium. But when we agree and team up, it's game on. lol...
Mostly these days, I like to sit and listen to people - to try to figure out what they're expressing and fit it into the zodiacal mandala of the Divine Life.
Now, I don't know if that was *the Abyss *as technically defined, but it sure was something. And, as to whether I "crossed it." lol... I doubt it. I absolutely do not live in some glorious experience where every a**hole who comes my way is smiled upon and seen as a glorious expression of the Divine. I can rant and rail at the universe with the best of them. I can become entirely sidetracked and incensed by politics, and that's probably another vote in the "nay" column. Does a Magister Templi yell at politicians on the TV? I doubt it... lol... I guess when I do lean toward thinking it was the Abyss, I think I'm glad I'm alive - cast out, or what-have-you - doesn't matter. I don't think, however, that I'll be making the attempt again any time soon. Maybe in my next life, I'll get an earlier start in hermticism, and we'll see what happens. But for now, I still feel like I'm settling out from that completely unpinned and unhinged experience. Still... But it is all settling out. Even still, I'm getting my feet under me again and trying to take up beginning practices again that I once couldn't even imagine leaving behind.
I still don't know what to call it, and I have found that the need to call it something and label it is in itself a maddening distraction. So, I've given that up as well.
I can only say that I initiated some sort of very dangerous, potentially maddening, completely psychologically unhinged experience from which I have learned a great deal. I think such experiences are what people are talking about and trying to find vocabulary to define. I don't really care who has or has not crossed the Great Whatever. I am really interested in people's experiences, though, and what they've learned from them.
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@Iamus said
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@Archaeus said
" But in fact they are classic examples of 32nd path phenomena. As this path is connected in a way to Binah it does share some qualities, and so the confusion is understandable, although not excusable."
""Huh, I never made that connection before. That's especially interesting to me becasue during my spiritual awakening/depressive illness I identified very strongly with Saturn, despite knowing very little about magick or even astrology at the time."
Its actually a pretty vital connection, and a major pitfall of this stage of the path, the connection between Malkuth and Binah should never be forgotten, as at this stage the aspirant is actively trying to loosen the grip of the former to cultivate the connection with the latter. You might also say that s/he is trying to recognize this connection in daily life.
The 32nd path would then be the active side of this connection, how it plays out in ones life, so various Saturnine influences would be expected.
Still, its no use mistaking one for the other, which would be very easy for anyone working outside of a system, hence the need for extra vigilance and honesty for those who prefer to go solo.
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@Iamus said
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@Archaeus said
" But in fact they are classic examples of 32nd path phenomena. As this path is connected in a way to Binah it does share some qualities, and so the confusion is understandable, although not excusable."
Huh, I never made that connection before. That's especially interesting to me becasue during my spiritual awakening/depressive illness I identified very strongly with Saturn, despite knowing very little about magick or even astrology at the time."Yes. A whole lot of experiences that feel legimately like "crossing the Abyss" are Tav experiences - especially crossing Tav from Malkuth in Assiah to Yesod in Yetirah (thus "crossing the Abyss" between Assiah and Yetzirah, to abuse the language a bit). (Of course, many others aren't anywhere near that level.) If I hadn't had the exact mapping of the A.'.A.'. system to follow at that exact point (about to enter 2=9), it would have been very difficult for me avoid interpreting it (with lots of ego-infusion!) as "I crossed the Abyss." (I was only destabilized a few weeks.)
A less-known phenomenon is one that hits the mature Adeptus Minor. When the experience in Tiphereth is mature, the natural course of development is toward Geburah and the 6=5 grade. I can tell you, the 6=5 really feels like "this must be crossing the Abyss." The three middle-triad grades are all "gates to the Abyss," so 6=5 is rightly called "the 2nd Gate to the Abyss." The severity aspects, the infusion and domination of Binah-Babalon ideas (Geburah opening itself rightly to the direct inflow/influence of Binah), the Lamed and Mem phenomena en route, and the (to me) surprisingly huge gap from 5=6 to 6=5 feels, for the most part, not all that different from large sections of the Vision & Voice subjective reports.
But it' s not the same. The perspective to keep is that there is an entire Tree within each sephirah, so even authentic, well-tracked experiences of feeling yourself move "up and through" the entire Tree to the top are deceptive. Also, that the 'gap' between individual grades can be extreme, even revolutionary, so it is misleading to take every "I blew myself the F away" passage as The Abyss.
And in Geburah, it is perhaps more 'persuasive' because, in the fulfillment of the Work of the grade, the influence to which you are opening is indeed Binah. Binah is the form or aspect of the Supernals that forges the primary link of the Major Adept, just as Kether is its expression to one in Tiphereth. (See The 32 Paths of Wisdom for the 5th Path.) But then one goes on to Chesed, and the primary voice of the linkage is from Chokmah via Vav.
"While I can hardly claim authority or first hand experience with this, it strikes me as extrememly troubling that an Exempt Adept preparing to cross the abyss would need to receive mental health services in this way. Additionally, I always understood that during this process, the lower self (body, intellect, etc.) goes on as always, holding down a job, carrying out family obligations, etc., but in a higher sense the Adapt is not really present in these things."
Some might benefit from this. But the idea of a general throwing of all such types together troubles me. The most powerful force governing this particular stage is its vacuousness - emptiness - its sterility. The Work (that cannot be intentionally done by the adept) is accomplished by the starvation of the psyche from certain phenomena.
And Crowley removed people passing through it from all contact with groups (probably to protect both sides in different ways). IMO that's an appropriate step. (This was lifted when they came through the other side as a Master.)
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My experiences in 2010 seem to fit this as well.
There was a very Saturnine quality to my life at the time (personal tragedy, interpersonal difficulties, depression) combined with a deep introspection and "descent" into the world of the unconscious. My dreams became very archetypal, with prominent dark anima and snake imagery. I had to let go of a lot of what I thought was "me". It culminated in a profound kundalini experience, which was followed by brief periods of clairvoyance and other phenomena. I think this probably was an experience of the path of Tav.
I'm guessing that the combo of the tragic/Saturnine feel, and the "underworld" of the unconscious can be mistaken for "the Abyss".
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@nashimiron said
"I get the impression that a lot of people who claim to have crossed the abyss forget the fourth power of the Sphynx. Which power can be related to the element Earth and the letter and path of Tau, which as hinted at by Archaeus, would suggest that they are going through an ordeal on this path and I would add failing to ground it, instead dispersing the energy through superfluous speach."
Did you hear what happened to the lovely Sphynx last week?
She was reclaimed, and adorned, annointed if you will.It has been promoted that the Y chromosome reacts with fight or flight
But the double XX will reveal and discuss, bond and join forces instead of running.I dont pretend to understand these paths and words, but when I said that I thought I was on the otherside, I wasnt impling that "i" crossed anything.
There used to be a time when blinds, and lies, and secrets were needed for this matter. But from where I sit, that time is gone.
From the information that has been revealed to me, little ol V, BB are attempting to square the circle, which may be where evolution is heading, mayabe.....
But I just dont think that is possible yet, under these condtions at least.
I wonder why it is, that when I was but a teen, I received the Book of the Law, accepted that Love is the Law and has dedicated my Life to Her. My oaths to Her would not allow me to join or lend energies to any organization that was not in accordance to Her TrueWill, so I have painstakenly worked on my own, or with other like minded women.
Crossing the abyss means one has completed the Great Work, No?
if one has completed the the Great Work, doesnt that mean that they have repaired any damaged DNA?
The BB would not be able, be equipt, to create that....to repair the damages, and come out whole, correct?
I sincerly would like to have some one give me a solid answer on those questions.
I love this planet, and someday I may be able to create my own, but till then my alligences are with Her, so I dont think I need to worry about crossing the abyss. If another human being has allready done it, then I have the capacity, and the memory to do it, for the original being allready laid the path at the micro level...if you will.
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To the Gala?
Oh, I got up and took off down the highway, waitin' for the limo to pick me up and take me.
My old man ran/limped after me and called me back home.
He's a faithful and true old man. He had some good things to say. I needed to hear them.
Never made it to the Gala though. Chockma blocked, I guess... lol...
But back to the serious folks...