Ethics of Thelema
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@Dara Allarah said
"just accept - like AV does! Like all believers do! Then you can be amongst faithful friends as a new convert...
"Still don't know what you're talking about.
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That was pretty clear, jefffaust. I believe Dar is just grinding her axe. "If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail"
Dar, I think where you're losing me is how your point relates to anything I've said (or anyone else has said in this thread).
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@Dara Allarah said
"And Av - if you were here I'd slap you a hard one for your cheek and your attitude."
It's pretty easy to dodge a drunk person's slap.
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@Dara Allarah said
"If I use insulting language while delivering a point it's usually intentional and designed to cut through a persons layer of self-serving bs - at some time or another - and not necessarily immediately. You need to work on your in-group/out-group associations Av. It's a tendency amongst males to form a little gang when something or someone seems to threaten their cherished belief systems. That's how men get suckered into the military... or internet flamewars. However - "I'm with my mates!" is not an excuse for not thinking for yourself and evolving your perceptions independently.
(that was your slap)."
None of that resonates with me. It does seem to coincide with your personal prejudices and projections, however.
The OP has made it clear that he's interested in finding a woman to practice sex magick with. You misunderstood, and went on a rant. Then you got upset because I said I didn't know what you were talking about, and then you said that "I" needed to learn how to express "ourselves better", so that you wouldn't misunderstand and go off on a rant in the future.
So, my recommendation would be to read your recommendations and apply them to yourself.
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At a cursory glance, while at times it upsets me, I can in some ways understand people picking up the notion that Thelema is just one big party.
In many ways it is.
For, in my view, part of being a Thelemite is learning to find Joy in Beauty in even the most mundane, to the horribly disgusting.What is this delusion of which you speak?
I only wish to hear that little squeak
See those little toes, they curl
She lets out a giggle, once more, little, a girlAnd where is me ?
Why... at her feet,
Bending down!
A delight!
A treat!
Kisses! Kisses!
All to a beatMy tongue makes signs
She moans, unwinds
We make music, together
DIVINE
I become drunk on Her
She, over flowing, and foaming
Capsules of our lives
OH! How I love HER
And HER LIES!
Though it seems so truthful
When viewing it in her eyes
Wedged between her thighs
Absolved in her sighsAnd for a moment I hold a purpose,
Perfect and divine,
A few seconds of which she is mine
This is not Nirvana
Her name is far more sublime! -
@jefffaus said
"I was refering to sex magick."
Don't get ahead of yourself. Sex magic is an advanced practice. If you're new to Thelema and magick, maybe work on getting down the basics first. I tried to jump way ahead of my actual abilities and experience (including in the area you're talking about) and eventually learned my lesson (I hope). On the other hand, screwing up is one of the best ways to learn..."I believe it is my true Will to have worldly success in raising my children, collecting coins, studying the occult and financial success."
Again, don't get ahead of yourself. Knowledge of your True Will will unfold gradually over years of work. Which isn't to say that you're wrong or that you should hold off on purusing what you believe your will to be, only that you should accept that what you know right now is only a fraction of what you will someday learn (in other words, be open to change and evolution in your understanding of your being and your path). -
@Dara Allarah said
"Why would you want to worship a Goddess? What about if that Goddess on the astral was once a woman but has been completely deluded by the selfish worship of billions (as Christ is) through countless thousands of years so that she no longer recalls her original existence or can get on with her path until all you deluded worshipping fools forget about her?"
Have you read "Liber Astarte", Dara? Matters of faith and belief aside, worshipping a deity is a fantastic way to build the tools and abilities that will eventually be used in the ritual to attain Knowledge and Conversation of one's Holy Guardian Angel.Or, how about Bhakti Yoga by Vivekanada?
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I'll respond to you specifically, then.
@Dara Allarah said
"I suggested he express himself better."
You replied to me, and you said "yourselves" (plural). You'll need to express yourself (singular) more clearly, if you don't want to be misunderstood. For the record, this is advice to you specifically, and not the female gender in general.
@Dara Allarah said
"It's a common ploy (used almost exclusively against female posters) and quite transparent."
My first accusation of emotionalism came when you said you would give me a hard slap. I was replying to your specific words as an individual.
You, however, are lumping men together. You've stated this intent explicitly on this forum in the past, so I'm taking your word for it. That's why I suggest that you follow your own advice "to work on your in-group/out-group associations".
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@Dara Allarah said
"Men who practise sex magick don't really treat women like Goddesses. They are taught that they give women their power and then the woman 'takes them in' and starts reflecting them - becoming their 'vehicle' with which their achieve their will and wants. The woman is just the material conduit for other energies they take from her - taking her loving nature for granted, charging themselves up, and then seeing her as little more than material dirt to use. Most men do not even practise real tantra but some perverted western sexist and self-serving version and they discuss with each other 'shall I tell the vehicle'? There's always the reply - no need! Why bother! Or 'It'll just cause complications!'"
I recognize the historical validity of your point, but it is today (if not in Crowley's day as well) an enormous overgeneralization. -
@Dara Allarah said
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@Iamus said
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@Dara Allarah said
"Why would you want to worship a Goddess? What about if that Goddess on the astral was once a woman but has been completely deluded by the selfish worship of billions (as Christ is) through countless thousands of years so that she no longer recalls her original existence or can get on with her path until all you deluded worshipping fools forget about her?"
Have you read "Liber Astarte", Dara? Matters of faith and belief aside, worshipping a deity is a fantastic way to build the tools and abilities that will eventually be used in the ritual to attain Knowledge and Conversation of one's Holy Guardian Angel.Or, how about Bhakti Yoga by Vivekanada?"
It's a selfish practise. You aren't thinking of the potential harm you do the deity - deluding it. That was my point."
I was thinking more of statements like this
"If you read the preface to the Book of the Law you'll find that Nuit, Hadit, and RHK are written about for literary convenience only to convey certain idea's. "
And as far as the harm done to the deity goes, I find it amusing that you accused me recently of speaking from faith, when I presented the idea that deities may very well represent unconscious aspects of ourselves (or our HGAs, as I'm inclined to think these days) and you actually believe that there actually exists some being that answers to "Christ" somewhere out in the astral.
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@Iamus said
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"If you read the preface to the Book of the Law you'll find that Nuit, Hadit, and RHK are written about for literary convenience only to convey certain idea's. "And as far as the harm done to the deity goes, I find it amusing that you accused me recently of speaking from faith, when I presented the idea that deities may very well represent unconscious aspects of ourselves (or our HGAs, as I'm inclined to think these days) and you actually believe that there actually exists some being that answers to "Christ" somewhere out in the astral."
Haha. Caught in her own web, but she'll never believe you. That would require faith.
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@Dara Allarah said
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@Iamus said
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@Dara Allarah said
"Men who practise sex magick don't really treat women like Goddesses. They are taught that they give women their power and then the woman 'takes them in' and starts reflecting them - becoming their 'vehicle' with which their achieve their will and wants. The woman is just the material conduit for other energies they take from her - taking her loving nature for granted, charging themselves up, and then seeing her as little more than material dirt to use. Most men do not even practise real tantra but some perverted western sexist and self-serving version and they discuss with each other 'shall I tell the vehicle'? There's always the reply - no need! Why bother! Or 'It'll just cause complications!'"
I recognize the historical validity of your point, but it is today (if not in Crowley's day as well) an enormous overgeneralization."Confirmation bias?"
Nope.
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@Dara Allarah said
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No Av - when I had an issue with you patronising me I clearly expressed that to you and you alone. The fact is - you men lump yourselves together as a response to certain specific stimuli that wouldn't draw women. This thread is probably gong to go that way shortly actually. It's a well known phenomena in sociology. Look it up.Do you think we have a private 'women's only' section on this forum for nothing?"
I'm not denying that sexism exists. That would be dumb.
I'm saying that I don't take accusations of sexism seriously when they come from you alone. Because you have a history of sexist behavior in conversations in this forum, and you've previously stated that you intended to treat all men alike.
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@Dara Allarah said
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Men who practise sex magick don't really treat women like Goddesses. They are taught that they give women their power and then the woman 'takes them in' and starts reflecting them - becoming their 'vehicle' with which their achieve their will and wants. The woman is just the material conduit for other energies they take from her - taking her loving nature for granted, charging themselves up, and then seeing her as little more than material dirt to use. Most men do not even practise real tantra but some perverted western sexist and self-serving version and they discuss with each other 'shall I tell the vehicle'? There's always the reply - no need! Why bother! Or 'It'll just cause complications!'"Perhaps that is how the men you have met practice sex magick;
For there is no greater joy than that of the Goddess;
Her ecstasy be mine, encircled by her,
I grow conscious of the continuity of existence
I surrender, pulling down all walls, offering no resistance
Flowing in and out of her, O Holy Grail
A moment of separation, another hammering, another nail
She is quite lovely, I dissolve
Upon the drawing back of her veil@Dara Allarah said
"Little girl? Pleeease!
"Should I be detecting some sarcasm there?
You seem to be perceiving the idea from a negative perspective
Perhaps, in some respect Wo-man is derived from Man;
Boys & Girls play as equals in the glade
That is now, for all , I say -
There are no Thelemic Ethics.
They are your ethics.
Your beliefs.
Your religion.
Personal dogma and ritual.Setting personal boundaries
Channeling art, down to the Kingdom
Maintaining symmetry, a balance of forces
Checked movement reflectedFinding... THAT, "The End"
Where IT begins
And your shit smells like mine
Taste of ambrosia,
Ready to vomit,
To choke it down!If flows effortlessly
With, OUT, a sound
Non-existance to the 4th power bound
Loving you, through Will
THE MOUND
From which we crawled inward
Sin word, kin word, live word
THE FIRST WORDSpoken: That she might know I love her.
No! Instead! IT must be sung!
Her NamE! Wonderful! Beautiful!
THE NONE, THE BLAME
Set ME - A LIGHT ;
On Fire!
To reveal : the same
"I love Her!"Whether she be a rose or a needle,
or an all consuming flame
Even if it requires me,
To loose my self,
Make constant stains ;
All the more good
With mercy beneath the hood
I, The UnDying Flame
I, Who is He, That is He, With OUT name -
There is no law beyond : Do What Thou Wilt.
@Dara Allarah said
"Revealed you are, as a true luster, one demanding that he should be able to do whatever he wants.... demanding his conjugal rights from 'his' Goddess."
Lust? I certainly lust, but it is more an obfuscation of deep seeded feelings of unworthiness.
It is never that my offerings are never good enough for the Goddess, it is that I never feel they are good enough.
I know she loves them, accepts them, lets them warm her heart.
I do not allow my self that enjoyment.. No! I must create something more beautiful, express a thing more creative.. she deserves more! Better! Than I could ever provide...Still, I torture my self, attempting to perfect my craft, that I might before the end of my days write one truly inspiring line.
Offer he one true diamond. My greatest fear that this never happens... so I go days without writing.
In the end, no matter what I do, how crappy, misguided or seemingly disgusting it is...My Lady still appreciates it, My Lady still loves me.