Short qestion about initiations
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@Vadox said
"Does AA and GD has initiations for all grades(sefiroths)? How about massons?
I ask because i am able to find initiatory rituals till adeptus minor grade."A.'.A.'. has formal initiation rituals for the Middle Pillar up to Tiphereth: 0=0, 1=10, 2=9, 5=6.
The Golden Dawn system has grade rituals through 5=6. Additionally, after the G.D.'s dissolution in 1900, some of its successor Orders developed further rituals.
The Stella Matutina under Felkin (especially in its New Zealand incarnation, Smaragna Thallasis) had serious 'working rituals' for 6=5 and 7=4, and then more Masonic-like, symbolic rituals through 9=2. The first two were published by Pat Zalewski.
Waite's Rosicrucian Fellowship had full rituals through Da'ath, and then other ritual stages below that (but I don't think an 8=3 specifically). Although these are in the hands of many of us, nobody has published them or widely distributed them, primarily because there is still a working Order using them.
Mathers' Alpha et Omega has a 6=5 ritual (unpublished). Iv'e not been able to discover a 7=4, and the best researchers I know think that there is not one (even though the grade itself was issued).
Temple of Thelema has full rituals up through 8°. These are not published.
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The original Golden Dawn ceased to exist in 1900, although some of its London members continued to use that name for another three years.
I'm not sure what a "Florence Farr lineage" would mean. Individuals in the G.D. didn't have lineage of that sort. It was vested in the Temple, and when she left England she had no Temple. I take it, though, that you mean there was some sort of "she taught X who taught Y who taught" etc. That wouldn't be meaningful in any sense at all for the G.D., though it would, of course, be quite meaningful to the people in the chain.
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@Dara said
"In return, the mythos amongst Thelemites is that the GD never went beyond 5=6 and the curse of Crowley is running to this day etc. "
Note that the question on this thread concerned ceremonies of initiation; and, during the existence of the G.D., there were no initiation ceremonies beyond 5=6. That's different from saying nobody held higher grades.
I do think, though - from the historic record - that during the existence of the G.D., no member ever reached what A.'.A.'. would call 5=6 - which the G.D. would have thought 8=3 - while they were a member. (If there is an exception to this, it was Farr.) There are a couple of people that just maybe had the K&C before they ever approached the G.D., and trhere were several who attained after they left (or after the Order ceased to be); but I believe my narrow statement above is true.
"Now I could bring up the fact that Thelema ceased to exist when Germer closed down the Agape Lodge, but that the rest of you have been using the name for decades. But that wouldn't be fair, and neither is your statement that the GD 'ceased to exist' in 1900. That's merely the bias of generations and our teachers. N'est-ce pas?"
The Golden Dawn was a specific organization. That organization ceased to exist. It had successors, including some very similar successors, but they were not that organization.
Thelema OTOH is not an organization.
"Now unless you want to say that your order is incapable of evolution (have you looked into the Temple yet btw?) then you can't really poke sticks at the GD and assume that they are not capable of equal evolutions. Lighten up Jim... and roll with it."
It's not an issue of their evolution. It's that the organization was shut down and abandoned by people who then went on to form other organizations.
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Too tedious to answer (and it would take an essay - we're really having two different conversations here, and it would take the essay to filter out the serparate conversations).
And, no, I don't anticipate that I'll have time to spend going over your big threads anytime in the foreseeable future.
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@Dara said
"
I guess I don't need to say anything... just like you.
"I do not think it is anything personal,
Jim is very practically minded
I have seen him cut down more than a few Philosipher-Poets with the question:
"Yes, yes... that is all fine and good but what is its practical application?" -
@Miss Dara 217 said
"
Now I could bring up the fact that Thelema ceased to exist when Germer closed down the Agape Lodge, but that the rest of you have been using the name for decades. But that wouldn't be fair, and neither is your statement that the GD 'ceased to exist' in 1900. "
