T.O.T. in Europe
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@Jim Eshelman said
"A temple would probably only be established when we had a core of two or three established senior members who lived in the area and were ready to undertake the process of building a group around them. This means that two or three people would need to invest several years of coming to the U.S. and taking initation, doing the work, passing their examinations, getting to know us and vice versa... reaching preferably Second Order, but not necessarily quite that far... etc.
Along the way, much earlier in their membership, they could lead study groups and the like, to establish an accessible presence."
To put it differently: Some organizations authorize a lodge, temple, etc. as a starting point of the process of attracting members. We don't. We only authorize a temple when there are sufficient numbers of members in a given location able and willing to meet and undertake the work, including sufficient people ready to assume leadership responsibilities for the group to ensure proper delivery of the system and continuity.
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@Dar es Allarah said
"I'll not expect T.O.T in Europe any time soon then."
LOL
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@Jim Eshelman said
"To put it differently: Some organizations authorize a lodge, temple, etc. as a starting point of the process of attracting members. We don't. We only authorize a temple when there are sufficient numbers of members in a given location able and willing to meet and undertake the work, including sufficient people ready to assume leadership responsibilities for the group to ensure proper delivery of the system and continuity."
Sounds good. Less good on quantity, but very good on quality.
Are we talking Second Order A.A. there or are there two or three (pre-, parallel?) orders of T.O.T., too?
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@Simon Iff said
"Are we talking Second Order A.A. there or are there two or three (pre-, parallel?) orders of T.O.T., too?"
No, Second Order T.'.O.'.T.'..
I like your pre-/parallel language.
Although there is no direct link between T.'.O.'.T.'. and A.'.A.'. levels, most people who are involved with both become A.'.A.'. Probationers about the time they enter Second Order T.'.O.'.T.'.. Although the training systems are distinctive, the goals and target points are a match (and much of the methodology is a close parallel) between T.'.O.'.T.'. Second Order and A.'.A.'. Outer College.I actually gave the table from which "equivalencies" could be mapped in Visions & Voices in talking about G.D. levels vs. A.'.A.'.. levels (a necessary topic when discussing Crowley's evolution around the V&V time). The key is not the sephiroth but the Four Worlds. In T.'.O.'.T.'., Second Order marks the shift to Yetziratic levels, the 5° being an initiation to Tiphereth in Yetzirah and the 8° to Briah. In A.'.A.'., conclusion of the Dominus Liminis work and passing to 5=6 is the transition to Briah. In any practical, meaningful way, Temple of Thelema 8° is equivalent to A.'.A.'. 5=6, even though the symbols of one are of Binah in Briah, and of the other is Tiphereth in Briah.
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@Dar es Allarah said
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@Simon Iff said
"Sounds good. Less good on quantity, but very good on quality."I'm not sure how you get that. It would cost a fortune to get 3 people across the water - set up for a few years of study - to come home and do their thing. So if the qualifying qualities of the men and women you require for the job are 'the rich assholes of Europe' then I see your point, as they would be the only ones in a position to apply. Worse - everyone they were trying to attract to the order would know they got their position by being rich assholes - so they'd start off with an instant disadvantage when it comes to attracting other people to the order - apart from a very (very) small number of eccentric & rich assholes. Otherwise.... no. N'est pas. Ni modo."
I absoutely understand that the cost is huge. This will come about only when the right circumstances converge. There area lot of people in the world who travel internationally very frequently or their work, and other people with funds who do it for pleasure. We've had a couple members in Europe who did this for two or three years, travelling a couple of times a year when that's what their life made available anyway. (BTW neithe were rich asshole types. One, in fact, was a college student who simply made it a priority to travel to the U.S. over here a couple of times a year.)
And if the goal is to get a group going in Europe (that wasn't the goal of the individuals I just mentioned: they were just members for their own personal growth), then it is even more important that the people get in-person, face-to-face training. You just can't do that sort of thing by a nice email discussion in advance <vbg>. The spread of the system is always person-to-person.
And the training of Chiefs - those who will assist all who come through, deliver the system to them reliably, know how to work with and support the people to whom they will be responsible - that's most definitely a person-to-person matter. We've leveraged technology to find ways to support and train such people (at a pragmatic level) far better than 20 years ago, but that's still not the same as "be in Temple every opportunity, witness, watch, absorb, connect to us, interact, ask questions," etc.
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@Dar es Allarah said
"I would be concerned that someone who has only known a life of affluence (including the college student with the rich parents who paid for his fee's) might lack the necessary compassion (that initiates must have as a prerequisite) due to a lack of life experience. That's a generality. Individual cases may disprove the rule."
We're not prejudiced against them more than any other type. (The opposite type has different weaknesses. And, as you say, everybody really is an individual.) Also, the nature of the work of the Portal is specifically aimed at equilibrating disequilibriums. (And whether to entrust someone with this responsibility falls to me, in the final analysis. Not just anybody who "made it through the grades" is Chief material, though the odds are much enhanced in their favor by the process.
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We are all sorry that there are no T.O.T. temples in Europe, but this is a place one can really find some quality information about the Work. This forum is really a place one can find some good answers, and Jim is helpfull all the time.
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I have mentioned that we are performing liber XV with similar modification of lithanies as the saints are concerned. However, I will surely explore the group if possible, Danica. Thank you.
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@Archaeus said
"Its a pity really because apart from AA there doesn't seem to be much in the way of Thelemic teaching orders active in Europe. and that one is quite a big step, and not what your complete beginner might want.
OTO is nice, but it's very much a social thing, great for making friends, but I can't say that it's taught me much, but then I could be mistaken as I never bothered going beyond I*."Well there is a choice in Ireland for those interested in Thelemic organisations.
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One thing to keep in mind:
The one thing that unites the U.S. is diversity.
Europe is a bit more homogenized...
With much more powerful national identities
Which at the end of the day are irrelevant to the WorkAn important aspect, I would think
Is that the physical location of the Temple should not determine its membership
If the Temple is located in France, for instance
There should not only be French people, also Germans and SpaniardsLanguage, obviously, would be a greater issue
At the same time it is more about the experience, no? -
@Uni_Verse said
"
With much more powerful national identities
Which at the end of the day are irrelevant to the WorkAn important aspect, I would think
Is that the physical location of the Temple should not determine its membership
If the Temple is located in France, for instance
There should not only be French people, also Germans and Spaniards
"National identities are irrelevant to the Work, I concur but understanding your roots and connecting with your ancestors has been prevalent from the dawn of time. It echos through everything, even via linages etc in other Thelemic bodies.
Why should I use Egyptian deities in order to conduct the Work when much more powerful energies lie with those I am surrounded by? Membership is not limited to just Irish, the Irish in the Orders title refers to the focus being Celtic/Gaelic.