Joining Thelemic Orders != doing ones true will.

Jim Eshelman

So true. (The Plato quote.)

sozos

"An agnostic (literally, "not-knower") withholds belief. An atheist (literally, "not-godist") has a firm belief that there is no god."

I think there's a common or vernacular understanding of what the terms mean, and then there are somewhat different definitions used in philosophy.

In strong atheism, there's a positive claim: "There is no god, or gods".
In weak atheism, there's a negative claim, or simple absence of belief: "I don't believe in a god or gods".

"Strong", "weak", "positive" and "negative" here are technical terms, not value judgements.

Agnosticism is simply the position that, to quote Wikipedia, "claims about the existence or non-existence of any deity... are unknown and (so far as can be judged) unknowable". It's a claim about knowledge, not belief.

Thus it's possible to be an agnostic atheist, a gnostic theist, an agnostic theist or a gnostic atheist. The theist-atheist scale is about belief; the gnostic-agnostic scale is about knowledge.

In the vernacular, "agnostic" usually is the equivalent of "weak atheist".

At least that's how the atheists explained it to me over beer...

(edit): Yikes, the thread has moved on since then, my apologies for going off-track there.

Jim Eshelman

@sozos said

"
"An agnostic (literally, "not-knower") withholds belief. An atheist (literally, "not-godist") has a firm belief that there is no god."

I think there's a common or vernacular understanding of what the terms mean, and then there are somewhat different definitions used in philosophy.

In strong atheism, there's a positive claim: "There is no god, or gods".
In weak atheism, there's a negative claim, or simple absence of belief: "I don't believe in a god or gods"."

"this is the law of the strong"
"Be strong, o man!"
"Wisdom says: be strong!"

Bereshith

"I think there's a common or vernacular understanding of what the terms mean, and then there are somewhat different definitions used in philosophy.

In strong atheism, there's a positive claim: "There is no god, or gods".
In weak atheism, there's a negative claim, or simple absence of belief: "I don't believe in a god or gods".

"Strong", "weak", "positive" and "negative" here are technical terms, not value judgements.

Agnosticism is simply the position that, to quote Wikipedia, "claims about the existence or non-existence of any deity... are unknown and (so far as can be judged) unknowable". It's a claim about knowledge, not belief."

Well the problem with asking an atheist whether there is faith involved in atheism is that it's just like asking a conservative Christian if it's their opinion that they are being hateful to homosexuals. They can't see it. Their doctrine rejects hatred, so they just reinterpret their actions as loving. They will only respond that they are acting in the most loving possible manner, by warning homosexuals strenuously of their eternal damnation in Hell. This rejection and condemnation, in their opinion, is the most loving action possible. Same thing with trying to get atheists to see their faith.

Atheists reject faith. It's a central tenet of their unspoken doctrine: "Ye shall not have faith!" So, of course, any attempt to reframe their believer script to them in terms of the "faith" that they have (in Reason alone) will be met with denial. Their doctrine rejects faith, so they just reinterpret every aspect of atheism as reason.

But calling atheism a "faith" is simply pointing at the presuppositions in their logic and saying, "You have a belly-button too."

Reality: Theistic OR Atheistic is like Light: Particle or Wave.

How you determine to experience Reality affects your results.

Bereshith

Your reaction begs the question posed to me by an atheist:

"Logically, how can animosity be the result of a LACK of belief in something? It can't be, can it?"

No.

Bereshith

"mock·er·y; n. pl. mock·er·ies

Scornfully contemptuous ridicule; derision.
A specific act of ridicule or derision.
An object of scorn or ridicule
A false, derisive, or impudent imitation
Something ludicrously futile or unsuitable."

". . . Veil not your vices in virtuous words. . ."

Such veiling of hatred for faith behind the logic of atheism is precisely the problem of self-blindness that I observe.

Jim Eshelman

@Patthana Gati said

"
@Bereshith said
"Such veiling of hatred for faith behind the logic of atheism is precisely the problem of self-blindness that I observe."

I just don't have much use for it and I consider a believer script to be incompatible with Magick. Do you think Crowley hated faith though? I think I might agree with that, but then... he had good reason to, didn't he?"

So much of this is a matter of definition, though.

Is faith the issue? Or is "faith as applied in conservative Christianity" the issue? (I have faith - certainty unfounded in linearly-linkable facts - in all sorts of things, like, say, the idea that the 2016 Presidential candidates will lie during their campaign.)

Is belief the issue, or particular beliefs, or beliefs leveraged in particular ways such as rigid rejection of knowledge as its equal partner? (There has never been a belief-free society recorded in the history of humanity.)

I define faith as the language of superconsciousness. It isn't "unreal" unless you define "unreal" as necessarily including any cognitive content that can arise without physical sensation, reason, or emotion / pattern recognition.

And belief is the best word in the English language for labelling the "reading between the lines" cognition of implicit and inferred information that is natural to the right hemisphere of the human cerebral cortex. (Knowledge "reads the lines." Belief "reads between the lines.")

So, to respond to two of your remarks, I consider belief to be the very stuff of magick, and yes, I think Crowley hated the kind of faith-based religious behavior in his formative environment.

Jim Eshelman

@Patthana Gati said

"We're getting to the good stuff Jim! Before I reply though, can I ask you if you consider your position to be representative of the White School of Magick?"

Of course you can ask?

Oh, but you also want me to answer!

I try to avoid that sort of categorization. (I deny "Gerard Aumont's" assertion that the three are "perfectly distinct." They make a nice mental exercise for an Exempt Adept, though.) In any case, it's mostly true that my "front" is white school themed (i.e., Rosicrucian-derived). The particular point of view in my last post was white-yellow (i.e., only specifically excluding the black from the conversation, without denying it outright).

Bereshith

Moving toward spiritual experience: Faith = Gas, Doubt = Brakes
Moving toward analysis of experience: Doubt = Gas, Faith = Brakes

Tools.

But if every instance of the application of faith is going to be condemned outright, then one gets stuck in analysis alone with no gas to move toward spiritual experience.

Smokey Monking

@Jim Eshelman said

"
I define faith as the language of superconsciousness. It isn't "unreal" unless you define "unreal" as necessarily including any cognitive content that can arise without physical sensation, reason, or emotion / pattern recognition."

Name dropping time: Tarkovsky´s best film, "Stalker", centers on a idea of "faith" that could fit pretty well with that definition.

Jim Eshelman

@Patthana Gati said

"It may help our readers to think in those terms."

LOL, I think that most of "our readers" don't have clear distinctions on the Three Schools. It's likely to serve only as a device of dialectic. Nonetheless... I like the idea of framing remarks within a point of view from the start, to the same advantage as defining one's terms.

Bereshith

Well yeah, Patthana, I see you as attacking the White School from a Black School perspective.

If you really understand the instruction process and learning curve of each as well as their ultimate unity, what's the point?

Why "should" and "because" a school whose methods you personally reject, but whose ultimate outcome is the same?

Bereshith

@Patthana said

" The mystical experience of a state of enlightenment - that is so powerful as to remodel the unconscious and conscious mind. All other beliefs are merely shadows built upon the ecstatic revelation of the adepts who undergo it.

We may observe that the delusions of the adept in this period have a trickle down effect and that in wrestling with the temptation for ego expansion, the adept becomes a symbol for everyone who has yet to experience it but can yet understand it on another lower level in the realm of Netzach and/or Hod and/or Yesod. Thus we get the type of Jesus avatar of religion we are all familiar with, and the masses make it their own without knowing it for themselves or understanding what is going on in the realms of the functionality of consciousness. They just understand the qualia. And even the adept may be deceived by the qualia and this is more the case than not. Thus from the delusion of the adept the delusions of the believer may be entrenched more often than not.

Today's science is catching up to strip that away and I welcome it.
"

To me, it sounds like your expectations outstrip the needs of students.

From the developmental perspective, humans will always begin as children, who will always take metaphors literally at first. Always. They are unable to do otherwise, no matter the metaphors presented to them. The developmental process of becoming able to understand the really deep stuff is always going to have stopping points along the way, and each stage has its own delusions and conflicts to be resolved on a higher level, as one enters the next stage.

In short, I think the misconceptions you are hoping to prevent are natural to the process of development and, as such, are to a great degree inescapable.

Bereshith

I have no experience with such teachers. I have no relevant comment.

Bereshith

@Patthana Gati said

"
@Bereshith said
"I have no experience with such teachers. I have no relevant comment."

Now that really* is* BS and blindsight. I had no spiritual teachers like that but there were plenty of people of that ilk that taught me how they see the world and thought I should take the view onboard and incorporate it enough to make me blind. Its completely pervasive in society - so much so that your blindsight is common, and the little cruelties that are excused as part of the social fabric go unnoticed.

Maybe you should reassess your perspective and make it relevant beyond your own self-interest for a change."

So... let me get this straight... You're basing your entire criticism of Thelemic orders on hearsay mingled with your experience of* society at large*? ...and you've never even personally had a spiritual teacher of the kind you're constantly complaining are pervasive?

Macsen Melinydd

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

I joined up with the Eales branch of the Motta lineage this past August on account of them being out of Indiana, right by Michigan where I am(I even lucked out and got a teacher that lives 30 or so minutes away!). Before joining, I had done much experimenting on my own using syncretic methods from all over the place and attained the visions of the Sephiroth on my own, one by one, though very quickly. So quickly, in fact, that I was in disbelief it had actually happened! That's why I joined. I had to get a window into the inner workings of the Order to be sure that I actually had the same experiences and not just, I don't know, glimpses. Or something. I experienced what can be described as "Knowledge and Conversation", reflective of how others have described it, only I accomplished it with my own means.

Now that a bit of time has passed as a Probationer, I'm really just beginning to feel like I'm wasting time and distracting myself from my own creative momentum. I love my teacher and gain much from our interactions being that there aren't many Thelemites in my life, but I look at him more as a peer than a teacher; more as a friend. I find that everything he tells me turns out to be what I already knew. I wish there was more to it than that, but it really seems that it all comes down to your own initiative; our Angels are our only teachers, and you can start talking to her/him/it whenever the fuck you'd like! Do a sigil, a prayer, a ritual, whatever, and get the ball rolling! He'll tell you where to start, just be prepared to hear him!

Yeah.

Love is the Law, love under will.