How to choose a work from a thelemic perspective?
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It depends, of course, on what you want to do, but also on what you consider "initiation." If you think initiation is nothing more than doing a bunch of inane imagination exercises and (what I've come to call) watching spiritual television, then feel free to get a job flipping burgers and spend as much time as possible having fantasies.
If, on the other hand, you think "initiation" means gaining specific insight into the Self and using that insight to more successfully navigate your way through the real world, then I can think of far worse ways to gain this insight than to give therapy in a clinical setting.
As I understand it, therapists undergo a "parallel process" with their clients: by paying attention to your own reactions to clients, you'll not only be better able to aid them, but you'll potentially gain more insight into your own self. Naturally, you'll have to carry that insight outside of therapy and test it in "real world" situations, but it could be extremely valuable.
Now maybe that would mean you wouldn't have the time or the energy to perform lots of inane rituals or to pretend you have an aura or something, but who cares? The Greak Work is accomplished in paying attention to the Self in the moment. If you're not doing that, then you aren't attaining anything -- at least not anything worth attaining.
As I see it, you're in a position that very few people are lucky enough to be in: you have a university degree that entitles you to do a kind of work that at least can be directly relevant to the Great Work (I mean the real Great Work of observing yourself and gaining real insight into yourself). To throw that away because you'd rather spend your time daydreaming seems profoundly stupid. You've spent this much time working on this degree, so use it to accomplish your own Great Work.
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@Los said
"It depends, of course, on what you want to do, but also on what you consider "initiation." If you think initiation is nothing more than doing a bunch of inane imagination exercises and (what I've come to call) watching spiritual television, then feel free to get a job flipping burgers and spend as much time as possible having fantasies."
"watching spiritual television" lol...! I love this term. How perfect!
"If, on the other hand, you think "initiation" means gaining specific insight into the Self and using that insight to more successfully navigate your way through the real world, then I can think of far worse ways to gain this insight than to give therapy in a clinical setting."
I quite agree. Though, sometimes the "television" does supply insights into the Self, as does all story-telling when mixed with self-observation, comparison, and reflection.
"As I understand it, therapists undergo a "parallel process" with their clients: by paying attention to your own reactions to clients, you'll not only be better able to aid them, but you'll potentially gain more insight into your own self. Naturally, you'll have to carry that insight outside of therapy and test it in "real world" situations, but it could be extremely valuable."
Again, I agree.
"Now maybe that would mean you wouldn't have the time or the energy to perform lots of inane rituals or to pretend you have an aura or something, but who cares? The Greak Work is accomplished in paying attention to the Self in the moment. If you're not doing that, then you aren't attaining anything -- at least not anything worth attaining."
Hmm... The nature of the Great Work for a specific individual depends on that individual and their Will. For those whose Will includes teaching the power of the imagination to affect their own emotions, and thus their own body chemistry, and thus their manner of thinking, feeling, and acting in the real world, then the power of myths and rituals are not so "inane."
"As I see it, you're in a position that very few people are lucky enough to be in: you have a university degree that entitles you to do a kind of work that at least can be directly relevant to the Great Work (I mean the real Great Work of observing yourself and gaining real insight into yourself). To throw that away because you'd rather spend your time daydreaming seems profoundly stupid. You've spent this much time working on this degree, so use it to accomplish your own Great Work."
Daydreaming, if it's purpose is to gain insight into the Self and then act from that insight, isn't so bad. It's not so different from observing one's reactions to one's clients, except that in daydreaming, one's "client" is one's own subconscious.
I agree with the rest though.
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@Bereshith said
"I quite agree. Though, sometimes the "television" does supply insights into the Self, as does all story-telling when mixed with self-observation, comparison, and reflection."
I'm going to disagree, if only because the "fancy picture" that Crowley argues leads people away from their True Wills is the creation of the imagination and is a form of storytelling. If Thelemic initiation is going to lead to anything substantial, the aspirant has to learn to look away from the imagination, at least while observing the Self. It's too easy to get sucked back into polishing the self-image otherwise.
The term "spiritual television" is such a good one because sitting around having visions provides pretty much exactly as much "initiation" as sitting on your butt and watching TV.
"Hmm... The nature of the Great Work for a specific individual depends on that individual and their Will. For those whose Will includes teaching the power of the imagination to affect their own emotions, and thus their own body chemistry, and thus their manner of thinking, feeling, and acting in the real world, then the power of myths and rituals are not so "inane.""
Well, I was using "Great Work" specifically to refer to discovering the Will. It's true that "Great Work" can also be used to refer to carrying out the Will, and if one's Will involves teaching the use of the imagination or performing rituals as kinds of performance art, then yes, Thelema demands that one do these things. My only point was that one cannot discover that these things are part of one's Will by looking into the imagination or by performing rituals: one has to pay attention to the Self to discover that these things are part of the Will.
"Daydreaming, if it's purpose is to gain insight into the Self and then act from that insight, isn't so bad. It's not so different from observing one's reactions to one's clients, except that in daydreaming, one's "client" is one's own subconscious. "
I'm going to strongly disagree that interacting with one's own fantasies yields equally useful data as interacting with other people. Fantasies are the realm of the self-image, the "fancy picture" of oneself, and everything that the Thelemite is trying to strip away from the perceptive faculties in order to better observe the True Self.
Observing how one reacts to a dream invented by the mind -- while it might be interesting -- is close to useless in discovering practical things about the True Will. It's far better to expose the Self to more kinds of experiences and evaluate the reactions of the Self in real time to the world around it. That's where the Will is found: out there, outside the mind, in each moment.
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Your perspective is so strange to me.
I think more like this:
"Liber Aleph, verse 9
Therefore deem not that thy lightest Fancy is insignificant. Thy most unconscious Acts are Keys to the Treasure-Chamber of thine own Palace, which is the House of the Holy Ghost. Consider well thy conscious Thoughts and Acts, for they are under the Dominion of thy Will, and moved in Accord with the Operation of thy Reason; this indeed is a necessary work, enabling to comprehend in what manner thou mayst adjust thyself to thine Environment. Yet is this Adaptation but Defence for the most Part, or at the best Subterfuge and Stratagem in the Tactics of thy Life, with but an accidental and subordinate Relation to thy true Will, whereof by Consciousness and by Reason thou mayst be ignorant, unless by Fortune great and rare thou be already harmonized in thyself, the Outer with the Inner, which Grace is not common among Men, and is the Reward of previous Attainment.
Neglect not simple Introspections, therefore; but give yet greater Heed unto those Dreams and Phantasies, those Gestures and Manners unconscious, and of undiscovered Cause, which betoken thee.
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Following this, Crowley also had the following to say about dreams:
"Liber Aleph, verse 11
The deep, constitutional, or predisposing Cause of Dreams lieth within the Jurisdiction of the Will itself. For that Will, being alway present, albeit (it may be) latent, discovereth himself when no longer inhibited by that conscious Control which is determined by Environment, and therefore oft times contrary to himself. This being so, the Will declareth himself, as it were in a Pageant, and showeth himself thus apparelled, unto the Sleeper, for a Warning or Admonition. Every Dream, or Pageant of Fancy, is therefore a Shew of Will; and Will being no more prevented by Environment or by Consciousness, cometh as a Conqueror. Yet even so he must come for the most Part throned upon the Chariot of the exciting Cause of the Dream, and therefore is his Appearance symbolic, like a Writing in Cipher, or like a Fable, or like a Riddle in Pictures. But alway does he triumph and fulfil himself therein, for the Dream is a natural Compensation in the inner World for any Failure of Achievement in the outer.
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Perhaps you can see why your perspective about the value of dreams and fantasies seems so foreign to me.
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@Bereshith said
"Perhaps you can see why your perspective about the value of dreams and fantasies seems so foreign to me."
Sure. And of course my perspective would seem foreign to anyone who's just reading and repeating Crowley instead of actually working with the material, drawing conclusions from that process, and modifying the practice as a result.
In a similar way, many of the conclusions of modern biologists -- founded on evidence -- would seem very foreign to people who only knew about evolution by reading Darwin.
For the record, I understand why Crowley might think this, especially given his interest in Freud, but so much mental nonsense is mixed into dreams and daydreams that they're close to being useless for the task of discovering the True Will. Even if dreams do provide clues as to one's True Will, one would still have to test any potential clues against the experience of everyday life anyway.
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Being selective in one's choice of which passages are and are not* truly reflective of the nature of the True Will and the means by which it may be known, how do you know your ideas and method are presenting the fullness *of the same thing, instead of something that's been amputated merely to suit your own preferences?
Also, how do you know you're not amputating the part of the method that best works for someone like me or the original poster?
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Before you read the rest of this post I want to state that this post reflects my experience and is in no way a substitute for doing your true will.
First of all, I want to say that I understand where you come from on the whole psychology profession. People who have not been intimately involved with it are naive at best about what it entails. They paint a pretty picture of it like it resembles a Dion Fortune fantasy novel. Well, it doesn't. I understand that you want to help others do their true wills, a very noble sentiment.
I don't think you should go continue your education to work in a hospital, since, as you put it, you never wanted to do that anyway. Nor do I think you should rush out and get a fast food job just because you need to go and get something.
Don't worry about being poor or rich, what other people think of your choices and all that nonsense.
On the other hand, just because a job pays less or less prestigious than the one you went to school for years to qualify for doesn't mean that you wouldn't actually enjoy it more than the profession you initially thought you would like doing.
This idea of giving everything up to focus on initiation also seems silly. How do you know in the end you will not find yourself bored with it as well, that's the thing you want to ask you self since you point to a continual pattern of growing bored with the stuff you have mastered. -
@Bereshith said
"Being selective in one's choice of which passages are and are not* truly reflective of the nature of the True Will and the means by which it may be known, how do you know your ideas and method are presenting the fullness *of the same thing, instead of something that's been amputated merely to suit your own preferences?"
This is a good question. The answer is that I'm not just picking passages arbitrarily or pulling them out of a hat: what I'm presenting in my posts is based on a lot of years of reading Crowley's material and then even more years of working with the material, all of which gives me the ability to discuss and refine methods given by people who came before.
A bird's eye view of Crowley's entire body of work makes it very clear what he meant by "True Will," which is a person's natural inclinations in conjunction with the realities of the environment. The same bird's eye view also makes it clear what the obstacle is: an individual's mind -- both conscious and unconscious -- that throws up barriers to perceiving the will, most especially in the form of "moral" beliefs and self-image (a "fancy picture" of the self).
Starting from simple premises like these -- and some basic experience working with the raw material of the Self we're talking about here -- a person can pretty reliably evaluate various practices and explain exactly why he thinks certain practices are useful and others are not.
The whole purpose of teaching other people about this subject is so that others don't have to spend years and years trying to figure out what to do in the first place, and the whole purpose of working to revise the practices and give people clues about the practices is to save them time by explaining what works and doesn't work and why.
It's in this way that we have a real subject of study and not just some religion where people mindlessly repeat rituals and practices just "cuz Crowley said so," without bothering to understand what the purpose of any of it is. In this way, a task that might have taken an entire lifetime a generation ago can be cut down to a few years or maybe even less, so that aspirants can discover the True Will and get on with actually fulfilling it
It's a funny thing about doing work: doing it gives one the ability to talk about one's subject, to explain simply and clearly what it is that one is doing in the first place and how one judges success, etc. Any joker can log on to the internet and claim to have done all sorts of work -- and tell all sorts of ridiculous supernatural stories as "proof" -- and try to act all "adept-like" and "wise" or however he thinks he's supposed to act. But not everyone can clearly and simply explain (1) what the goal is, (2) the methods by which one reaches the goal, and (3) the criteria by which one can tell that the methods have worked.
Without knowing this stuff -- without rationally and specifically grasping answers to these questions -- the only way a person can "attain" to anything is by the rough equivalent of luck. And even then, without a clear understanding of how to judge success, the person will not be able to judge that he has, in fact, attained.
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In short.. If you dont want to finish your studies.. then do finish your studies and complete it with an analysis on why should, why you shouldnt.. make one true, make the other true make both true, make both untrue.. Make your study the back drop of your reflections and complete it.
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Thanks for the replies.
I may have not been clear enough.
My brains are boiling when i think about psychology. It's like i had an overdose. Of course i know analysis will be always useful and relevant. The thing is i cannot even continue my own properly currently, because i had to much. Thinking that way makes me sick. I feel like i need to concentrate more on the macrocosm than on the microcosm to feel better, to re-equilibrate myself. Also, to focus more on positive things than on clinical things. Maybe you get better the idea?
I'm not trying to escape. I'm not even attracted to rituals and daydreaming. It's what i do the least in the path. I agree with the core of what you all say. Actually, my question is how to articulate the inner and the outer, not how to make the inner outweight the outer. For me, currently, psychology feels actually like an escape, like the easy way, not a thelemic one. That's what frightens me. The promblem also is that most people i would listen to would have very classic neurotic issues.
So they would force me thinking about neurotic mecanism and negative stuff. That's an alchemical problem. I'm getting tired of human problems. I feel psychology was there to help me prepare to initiation, and have a safety box near me for the path, but not to actually deal with other people's heads. I like to hear good news, not bad ones. I have enough bad ones to deal with myself, and as the path brings constant destroying and rebuilding, i know i'm gonna have to continue psychology anyway for myself. Doing that too for other people starts to feel too much.
Maybe i'm crazy, i dont know. But thats the way i feel. Professionaly anyway, psychology isn't a way to make big money if you're honest which i am. There's no carreer there as i understand it. I dont even like psychologists. I actually feel they 're a bunch of pricks for the most part. A lot of them are pervers or feel like gods walking on earth, when they are cockroaches at best. They think they are of such importance. Maybe they are the kings of cockroaches, i dont know. All my friends were from other places. When i quit uni i didnt keep contact with anyone from there. Many jobs would get me the same money after a couple of years of experience. It's just i dont know what to do else.
As for my duty to society, i plan writing poetry. That would be also my way to thank and honor Crowley. But i'd like to do it after adepthood, maybe even as a 7=4 thesis. Write a thesis in a poetic form. That would be awesome. Now, such an idea really excites me. But reaching such a high level will take a lot of time. And it's not a job.
When i talked about repeating mantras and doing aura work during work time, it wasnt in a "intoxication", nor "daydreaming" sense. I actually thought about it more in a duty to society sense. Let me explain how. I think about our Lady the holy whore. For instance, if i work in a big cloth store as a sailer, i'll interact with many people, with very fast interactions. I see many subtle opportunities from such a setting. First of all, i'd be able to give love to all. Ok, especially to women as i'm not gay(althought i did experience gay stuff for the sake of initiation, i mean, to beat up duality). Where this ends doesnt matter to me. But my intent would be that of our Lady, i would be open. That would be a big part of the "aura work".
Also, i would work on applied psychology and very fast interaction, in a non clinical setting. That attracts me a lot actually. I would base my research more on NLP, instant poetry, body langage and stuff. That's another huge field of psychology. To learn this well, i have to get my hands dirty, not to coach some neurotic geeks by explaining them basic theories. By aura work, i also meant instant screening, a field i have never trained in. That also interest me a lot and is very relevant to the path. Also, Crowley was a great lady's man, and getting such skill would be a good way to honor him.
Also, i see an alchemical benefice in bringing myself down on the social scale. That may sound crazy again. But... Isn't it written in the holy books that who is weak is strong, and who is strong is weak? Do you get the idea? The thing also is i was very ambitious for many years. In different ways, but especially socially. I wanted to show off my power. Now i feel the best for me might be to actually hide it... And that the more i hide it, the more it will increase.
What do you think?
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@Shadow Self said
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This idea of giving everything up to focus on initiation also seems silly. How do you know in the end you will not find yourself bored with it as well, that's the thing you want to ask you self since you point to a continual pattern of growing bored with the stuff you have mastered."Yes... Also brings the question of Lust of results.
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@Los said
"It's a funny thing about doing work: doing it gives one the ability to talk about one's subject, to explain simply and clearly what it is that one is doing in the first place and how one judges success, etc. Any joker can log on to the internet and claim to have done all sorts of work -- and tell all sorts of ridiculous supernatural stories as "proof" -- and try to act all "adept-like" and "wise" or however he thinks he's supposed to act. But not everyone can clearly and simply explain (1) what the goal is, (2) the methods by which one reaches the goal, and (3) the criteria by which one can tell that the methods have worked.
"Right, which is why I question you a lot about it, since you don't say anything that cannot be found in Hessle's essay on True Will. Accusations are easy to come by, and they themselves arise from unconscious projections of ignorance, weakness, stupidity, and insanity.
@Los said
"The whole purpose of teaching other people about this subject is so that others don't have to spend years and years trying to figure out what to do in the first place, and the whole purpose of working to revise the practices and give people clues about the practices is to save them time by explaining what works and doesn't work and why.
"Your method (Hessle's method) yields one experience. Without other experiences with which to compare the one experience (as you claim yourself to have done, having a "birdseye view"), how may others make the same determinations for themselves about what works and why? Your presentation seems to assume that people should take your word for the importance of the one experience and stick with only the one method without comparing it to anything else for themselves.
Most intriguingly, though, regarding the whole of the system of advancement, you seem to focus singlemindedly on the True Will to the point of discrediting the importance of achieving Knowledge and Conversation and of the Next Step for humanity, crossing the Abyss. While such things may be extraneous to your own True Will, attempting to discredit these things for all Thelemites, in my opinion, really misses the bigger picture of the methods Crowley was trying to incorporate and why.
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@chris S said
"It seems you already know Horus Amin, the primary thing is not worrying.. its analysis of the script, the plot line of your character and how it reveals itself through every act."
can you be a little more explicit please? keep in mind i'm not from an english speaking country
would you still suggest what you said before?
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@Horus Amin said
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@chris S said
"It seems you already know Horus Amin, the primary thing is not worrying.. its analysis of the script, the plot line of your character and how it reveals itself through every act."can you be a little more explicit please? keep in mind i'm not from an english speaking country
would you still suggest what you said before?"
yes i do..
I'm suggesting that we dont initially know what is authentic for us.. ( we're all a little screwed up anyway) so actually worrying what you should be doing instead of applying the methods to what you actually are doing is counter productive.
So its just as beneficial to finish your studies.
[Edit] Back in my younger days i entered university with the desire to obtain a degree in anthropology, philosophy and comparative studies in art, science and religion. I obtained that and spent some touring and playing guitar for bands, spent quite a bit of time investigating and documenting phenomena in the field of the paranormal, traveled to Japan to further studies in Zen Buddhism, on to Venezuela to have experience in Ayahuasca under the guidance of a shaman, who was incidentally also a psychiatrist and neurologist. Became a baker, a cook,i studied massage... These days i restore classic cars for people that cant do it themselves.. anyway the the application was the same no matter what i was doing.
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@Bereshith said
"Your presentation seems to assume that people should take your word for the importance of the one experience and stick with only the one method without comparing it to anything else for themselves."
I'm presenting what I think is the correct interpretation of the material, obviously. You'll notice -- if you read enough of the threads on here or especially on Lashtal -- that people disagree with me, but their disagreement usually only goes as far as saying that they disagree (often punctuated by a claim that it's impossible or unnecessary to "reason" too much about this subject). These people who disagree usually appear strangely reluctant -- or, as I think is more likely the case, simply unable -- to present a compelling alternative argument.
You can take that information and do whatever you like with it.
"Most intriguingly, though, regarding the whole of the system of advancement, you seem to focus singlemindedly on the True Will to the point of discrediting the importance of achieving Knowledge and Conversation and of the Next Step for humanity, crossing the Abyss. While such things may be extraneous to your own True Will, attempting to discredit these things for all Thelemites, in my opinion, really misses the bigger picture of the methods Crowley was trying to incorporate and why."
First, "Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel" is nothing more than a metaphor for discovering the True Will. While the achievement is often marked by a specific trance experience, the actual attainment consists of discovering the Will (or, as Crowley puts it in One Star in Sight, KCHGA
"is the essential work of every man; none other ranks with it either for personal progress or for power to help one's fellows. This unachieved, man is no more than the unhappiest and blindest of animals. He is conscious of his own incomprehensible calamity, and clumsily incapable of repairing it. Achieved, he is no less than the co-heir of gods, a Lord of Light. He is conscious of his own consecrated course, and confidently ready to run it.")I realize that certain people around here likely have a very different understanding of KCHGA, but other understandings of it aren't consistent with Crowley's writings.
Second, I don't dwell on Crossing the Abyss in my writings because it doesn't create practical changes in behavior, which is the whole point of Thelemic initiation. Erwin, who claims to be an 8=3, has some interesting writings on that particular attainment, if you're interested. Personally, I suspect you're a long way off from the Abyss, so it's nothing you have to concern yourself with now, but it might be a subject that interests you intellectually, for all I know.
So the short answer is that I do not "discredit" either the 5=6 or 8=3 attainments, both of which I consider the meat of what Thelema has to offer.
It's up to each individual to decide what to do with what I say. The only way someone has to judge me is by what I say and how well I can explain myself. If you'd like to just ignore me and do whatever you please, go right ahead. If you'd like to listen, then that would probably be good for you, since I happen to be dispensing some really good advice.
I personally could care less what you do.
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
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Horus Amin
This is the kind of subject where one needs to be very careful when giving advices, so I will speak only of my own perspective.
I never had a job or interest that completely absorbed my energy like Magick does. I also considered for a long time to dedicate my full time to it.
But the very experience of Initiation has showed me an entirely new perspective.
First, the very nature of self-awareness practices is somehow aggressive. Working helps to ground my mind after intense experiences. I believe that it was called astral intoxication back in the old GD.
Second, although not working with anything resembling the Great Work, it gives me the right amount of environmental pressure to develop some of my latent abilities. Without it I get lazy, my general amount of energy drops dramatically and I lose the opportunity to observe how my mind interacts with the outer world through projection.
Third, there is the pleasure of challenge, not different from the pleasure of playing a game. It comes with some sort of detached perspective. Stress and inner friction disappear and all that remains is the joy of worry free effort.
It is easier when you have a job that fits your natural talents and inclinations. What this talents and inclinations are, you will only know by attempting different things and see how you react to them (it is what I understand when Jim says that “Life corrects you en route”).
And, maybe a more materialistc but important perspective. Good job can give good money and money can make your meditation easier.
In the end, the new perspective I have is that Magick is not only rituals and meditations, but a way to live your life, to live as a Mage, using the universe around you as a mirror where you can see and project your inner potentiality.
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Just a note before I go to bed. Karma Yoga by Vivekananda. Very insightful about how life itself can be a tool of self liberation or, how I like to think about it, “how the kingdom of heaven can be conquered with money, woman, wine and a nice new suit”.