Trasncultural landmarks
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I was thinking:
Is it possible to set general rules to observe the initiatic development happening in other mystical systems and cultures?For example. Much of what is said to happens with the A.A. Neophyte has strong similarities with the process that shamans undergo in their death and reborn journey (opening to Yetsirah, guiding voice, some kundalini-like manifestations) and much of the work that they do is very Neophyte-like.
Other strong landmark would be the Knowledge and Conversation that seems to rise more clearly among bhakty practioners. I am not able to indentify anything like it in Buddhism for example. On the other hand, Buddhism has a lot that looks like Magister Temple stuff.
Is this line of thought reasonable or am I losing my time trying to indentify this marks?
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"I am not able to indentify anything like it in Buddhism for example. "
Well it depends on your flavour of Buddhism, you'll see hints of it in the Sutras and Tantras.
Buddha might of said it's a useful fiction or vehicle to facilitate awareness of all.Buddha nature = HGA.
Or.. "do not seek for Buddhahood outside of yourself.. the substances for the achievement of Buddhahood are within" -
I've always found the best guide of comparison to be the Four World's.
Of course, most systems don't traverse all four worlds, and some tasks or practices that outwardly look the same will actually have a different relevance within their respective systems. Where linearity is possible, it makes it easier to trace this relevance in the respective systems.
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Absolutely Faust. You should notice many similarities between culteral magickal systems.
KCHGA is the Western version of the Buddist 'Enlightenment'.
Call me Culturally prejudiced if you like, however I feel that our system is the best. In Terms of having the path well mapped, with the most signposts.
I also beleive we are at the forefront of mapping the Tree of Death- a universally important work.
Q
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@Q789 said
"KCHGA is the Western version of the Buddist 'Enlightenment'."
That varies, I think. Might just as well be the crossing of the Abyss. I'm no Buddhist expert, though.
"Call me Culturally prejudiced if you like, however I feel that our system is the best. In Terms of having the path well mapped, with the most signposts."
Me too.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"I've always found the best guide of comparison to be the Four World's."
That is one of those really useful ideas that I got from your books. It is good to know that it is not a impossible and/or unreasonable task. Although most of these experiences are trans-rational, it is good to have a solid criterion to be able to judge the quality of what someone is teaching or learning.
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@chris S said
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"I am not able to indentify anything like it in Buddhism for example. "Well it depends on your flavour of Buddhism, you'll see hints of it in the Sutras and Tantras.
Buddha might of said it's a useful fiction or vehicle to facilitate awareness of all.Buddha nature = HGA.
Or.. "do not seek for Buddhahood outside of yourself.. the substances for the achievement of Buddhahood are within""Do you mean "all" in the sense the Buddha desctribes it the sutta pitaka?
I have no problem with saying that all you need to attain Enlightment/Awakening (Buddhahood) comes from within, just as long as we don't call it Buddha Nature. The idead of Buddha Nature cannot be found in the sutta pitaka (or the Vinaya or commentaries.). I have similar issues with the Buddha Nature doctrine that I do with the fate/destiny implications of AC's "true will" language.
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@Faus said
"On the other hand, Buddhism has a lot that looks like Magister Temple stuff."
I agree, but it has not gone well for me when I've put this to Theravadin Buddhists I know who don't understand Thelema via the A.'.A.'.. In fact, they get downright mean. -
@landis said
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@Faus said
"On the other hand, Buddhism has a lot that looks like Magister Temple stuff."
I agree, but it has not gone well for me when I've put this to Theravadin Buddhists I know who don't understand Thelema via the A.'.A.'.. In fact, they get downright mean."It shows how much "detached" and open-minded they are.
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@Patrick Ossoski said
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@landis said
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@Faus said
"On the other hand, Buddhism has a lot that looks like Magister Temple stuff."
I agree, but it has not gone well for me when I've put this to Theravadin Buddhists I know who don't understand Thelema via the A.'.A.'.. In fact, they get downright mean."It shows how much "detached" and open-minded they are.
"Exactly. It reminds me of Puritanism but Buddhist style. The sutta pitaka is so NOT puritanical. They like to draw lines in the sand but don't realized they're standing on the beach right before the tide comes in.
I say "they," but I guess I'm one of them--or so I thought. I guess it depends on which one of them you ask. To be fair, they're not all like this, but generally, they are.
And me, I'm never dogmatic about anything.
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@landis said
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@chris S said
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"I am not able to indentify anything like it in Buddhism for example. "Well it depends on your flavour of Buddhism, you'll see hints of it in the Sutras and Tantras.
Buddha might of said it's a useful fiction or vehicle to facilitate awareness of all.Buddha nature = HGA.
Or.. "do not seek for Buddhahood outside of yourself.. the substances for the achievement of Buddhahood are within""Do you mean "all" in the sense the Buddha desctribes it the sutta pitaka?
I have no problem with saying that all you need to attain Enlightment/Awakening (Buddhahood) comes from within, just as long as we don't call it Buddha Nature. The idead of Buddha Nature cannot be found in the sutta pitaka (or the Vinaya or commentaries.). I have similar issues with the Buddha Nature doctrine that I do with the fate/destiny implications of AC's "true will" language.
"Yeah.. ultimately you get what you want from it.. The Theravadin Buddhists are very political, er.. thats all i'll say
I'm a practitioner Zen Buddhism.. now without falling into the same hole.. Buddha nature is articulated in the Agamas as 'luminous mind'.. Now that isnt all together accepted by Mahayanists where its characterised with the state of self-realization, in the Buddha nature class of sutras, the word "self" (atman) is used in a way defined by and specific to these sutras.
Now we are in the realm of doctrine here remember.. Buddhism is quite an old field that has spread across and absorbed by the asian lands/cultures before western culture ever heard of it, the Buddha nature discussed in sutras does not represent a substantial self (atman).. rather, it is a positive language and expression of emptiness (sunyata) and represents the 'potentiality' to realize Buddhahood through Buddhist practices.Look personally.. in my study of Zen Buddhism, when they wern't working my ass off i was in zazen.. It's roots are in Mahayana with an emphasis on the 'personal' expression of direct insight in the Buddhist teachings.
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@chris S said
"...Buddha nature is articulated in the Agamas as 'luminous mind'..."
Luminous mind is found in the Pali texts also, but it is considered corrupt. I'll have to consult my Bhikkhu Analayo (a Pali/Chinese comparison expert) references and get back to you on whether or not the Agamas see luminous mind as corrupt also. -
@landis said
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@chris S said
"...Buddha nature is articulated in the Agamas as 'luminous mind'..."
Luminous mind is found in the Pali texts also, but it is considered corrupt. I'll have to consult my Bhikkhu Analayo (a Pali/Chinese comparison expert) references and get back to you on whether or not the Agamas see luminous mind as corrupt also."yeah great it'd be an interesting read.
No doubt you're already aware of this and its the main reason i avoided it as well, is arguing for doctrine. It's a complete political process that Buddha offered a warning on.. painting a picture where when you come to the river you use the boat as a vehicle, when you reach the other side you leave it on the bank, not tie the boat to your back and carry it.
Buddha liked to infer.. in that its left to lay for another to go on his particular direction.
The language in the writing is intimately connected to the human being, not just labels for objects.. so not actual things but metaphors of experience.For me it felt awkward at first as the intellect beats the hell out of the canon, digging and shoveling, splitting wood.. in the end it's all in the meditation.
I'm a musician and it was a similar experience.. the instrument was awkward at first and i had to at least learn some 'theory'..as time went on i began to think less about the actual instrument until eventually i could play it without thought and just totally love what i was doing.. It can be any activity, like sweeping the floor really.
Buddha always said hey dont believe me i'm just talking here.. see for yourself. -
I read about the story of Buddah some time ago. And for me the similarities to my own story are outstanding, undeniably akin, Also I once read a similar story based on alchemy and the Knights of the round table- once again with outstanding similarities to my own experiences.
The long road of struggle, the challenges, the 'rest' period as the traveller/seeker got weary. the powerful reflection upon my own personal struggles whilst I seek, A strong sense of 'faith' that there is an end to this search, yet at the same time, at the last moment a strange feeling of doubt as one gets tired of searching. a vision of my life, the lessons the ups and downs. Continued experiences with 'the light', underground discoveries of light and more. Not to mention the vision of sorrow.
For myself the words are 'enlightenment' and 'illuminations'- yes KCHGA is also very relevant- just a different perspective. My intuition leads me to use the words enlightenment for some reason.
In terms of the abyss, similarities are found in the works of AC, Hindi art etc etc.
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@Patrick Ossoski said
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@Q789 said
"KCHGA is the Western version of the Buddist 'Enlightenment'."That varies, I think. Might just as well be the crossing of the Abyss. I'm no Buddhist expert, though.
"As someone who has spent quite some time in both worlds, as it were, I would say that there is a huge amount of "buddhism" and "hinduism" out there. Saying a single thing about it and trying to say "that's buddhism" is like finding something that is agreed upon by all branches of Christianity, living and extinct, exoteric plus esoteric. There are probably a few, but not much. Ditto for Hinduism.
There are branches of both that are as dogmatic as Catholicism, or as stunted as the basest of evangelical churches, and there are branches of both that are profound mystery schools. And, just like with western religion, the most "mainstream" versions of both faiths are the least useful.What I can tell you from my own experience is that its clear to me that there is a "Sanatana Dharma" (or Philosophia Perennis, if you prefer), a single formula of underlying Truth that is not what "all religions believe" or nonsense like that, but it IS a formula that can be found in almost any culture, in the esoteric systems hidden in that culture.
I can also tell you from my own experience that part of this formula involves three stages (degrees, if you like, with non-initiate/profane/cowan/whatever being the fourth stage); these stages could be summed up as "Initiate, Adept, Master". And of course its quite possible to break them down into further sections.
Because of the aforementioned variety of belief systems found in Buddhism and Hinduism, you can certainly find individual sets of systems that do not correlate correctly, but from my own experiences and exploration of Truth, I could tell you that what is generally termed Enlightenment begins at crossing the abyss.
93!
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@Q789 said
"In terms of the abyss, similarities are found in the works of AC, Hindi art etc etc."
@Swamiji said
"Because of the aforementioned variety of belief systems found in Buddhism and Hinduism, you can certainly find individual sets of systems that do not correlate correctly, but from my own experiences and exploration of Truth, I could tell you that what is generally termed Enlightenment begins at crossing the abyss.
"I thougt "the abyss" for Thelemites was just the great gulf or void between the phenomenal world of manifestation and its noumenal source?
Some Buddhists (the ones more influenced by western-philosophical-matertialism--and especially the ones influenced by it but who don't want to admit it) want to deny the noumenal because it's "metaphysical speculation." Others are willing to look at it because of the Buddha's (and many of his followers) claims to attainment of the first five abhiññā (source).
(1) magical powers (iddhi-vidha),
(2) divine ear (dibba-sota),
(3) penetration of the minds of others (ceto-pariya-ñāna),
(4) remembrance of former existences (pubbe-nivāsānussati),
(5) divine eye (dibba-cakkhu),
The sixth is
(6) extinction of all cankers (āsavakkhaya).
Which is a synonym for nibbana, which, IMO, also involves noumenal and phenomenal processess.
Most Buddhists however, to my dismay, don't want to admit that these things and Magick have anything in common. Okay, so Crowley was critical of many Buddhist ideas, but he consistently acknowledged the Buddha as a Magus (or was it Ipsissimus?)--somone who etablishes his own Law.
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@Swamiji said
"I can also tell you from my own experience that part of this formula involves three stages (degrees, if you like, with non-initiate/profane/cowan/whatever being the fourth stage); these stages could be summed up as "Initiate, Adept, Master". And of course its quite possible to break them down into further sections.
Because of the aforementioned variety of belief systems found in Buddhism and Hinduism, you can certainly find individual sets of systems that do not correlate correctly, but from my own experiences and exploration of Truth, I could tell you that what is generally termed Enlightenment begins at crossing the abyss. "
I thought so. Thank you.
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"I can also tell you from my own experience that part of this formula involves three stages (degrees, if you like, with non-initiate/profane/cowan/whatever being the fourth stage); these stages could be summed up as "Initiate, Adept, Master". And of course its quite possible to break them down into further sections.
Because of the aforementioned variety of belief systems found in Buddhism and Hinduism, you can certainly find individual sets of systems that do not correlate correctly, but from my own experiences and exploration of Truth, I could tell you that what is generally termed Enlightenment begins at crossing the abyss.
93!"
yes.