I'm going through the experience of the Abyss...
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@landis said
"
@The_Hawkheaded_child said
"I have been down in this hellish pit of suicidal feelings, despair and tears, for 2,5 years now...
Has anyone else gone through this experience?"@landis said
"I've had several "episodes" like this in my life. I just came out of one. IMHO, you're depressed. "
"Landis,
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
I ALSO have had several "episodes" of what you call depression and I know perfectly well how to differ a depression from what I'm going through. The first thing that differs is the "pain", inside. There is no pain in depression, there is perhaps a little and more "greyness" and "sadness."
Read again, what I describe here can’t be connected to a simple “depression”:
*“I don’t really know how to describe the experience of it other than it’s just 100’s of hours of tears – buckets of tears! Agony and the most horrible pain… In the beginning of this experience I remember watching this episode of Dr House, and saw a man lying on his deathbed, dying – can you believe it, but I actually felt sincere jealousy!!! And cried out:
“How nice for him! Oh god how nice for him! I want also!”*
It actually felt like finding yourself in the middle of a desert, seeing another man involved in drinking and pouring water all over him – when you are dried up, dying from thirst and having no water for yourself. And I have never in my life before and since, felt sincere JEALOUSY from seeing another man die! NEVER!
Now, this is the place where I am at:
Here abideth terror, and the blind ache of the Soul…[] And he said: Thou hast entered the night; dost thou yet lust for day? Sorrow is my name and affliction. I am girt about with tribulation. Here still hangs the Crucified One, and here the Mother weeps over the children that she hath not borne. Sterility is my name and desolation. Intolerable is thine ache, and incurable thy wound.”
So... from your and all the post – I can see where all this is going:
“but lest there be folly, he shall comment thereupon by the wisdom of Ra-Hoor-Khuit.
Therefore let me say this: I didn’t start this topic because I need psychological advice, that part should have been dealt with and was dealt with many years ago. I am no beginner or someone just stumbling over magick and starting to feel “a little bad”. I have been into this for many years working with trauma, depression and my own behavior etc.
I have this intuitive feeling – always had – that everything has to be “lived through” whole heartedly not trying to escape the pain for one bit – you hear me!? Not for one single simple bit - to hell with antidepressants! You should know this and the following verse is what should bring comfort to a suffering man:
9. Remember all ye that existence is pure joy; that all the sorrows are but as shadows; they pass & are done; but there is that which remains.
I already know where I am…KNOW… I just don’t have what Jim E. has: the knowledge to put it in simple and plain words. Therefore I don’t have to have this analyzed for me… Even though I appreciated some comments from Jim, since from reading between the lines, he tells my “understanding” that he has obviously lived through it, or has come very close... He can’t really relate to me and maybe because: “The gross must pass through fire”. I figure that’s why this experience is so very hard on me.
I have so much information that I could share – but won’t… Like the experience preceding me taking the Oath of the Abyss: I’m thinking of the K & C of one’s Holy Guardian Angel. Now that “K” actually meant me having KNOWLEDGE that I didn’t have before… Knowledge that can’t be retrieved from a book – now that is a real testimony to myself confirming the path and my whereabouts... later came the “complete” separation and departure of mine Angel…
Leaving me in this tremendous pain that has been going on for 2,5 years…
What I don’t know is if I will succeed in crossing… what will happen… I don’t know… My life is in the hands of the Lord… and probably will never be in the hands of any shrink.
I know I went down that path opening up my heart in this forum, giving from my own experience to the ignorant. I don’t regret it since sooner or later I will have to deal with a lot people that will disapprove with me; try to pull me down; attacking my heart etc. – so it was necessary and a part of my “training”.
Now, what I was asking was: Did Crowley leave any record of his own experience? Did Frater Achad do it? Does somebody else want to share his own experience?
Patrick Ossoski came closest telling me “sure” Crowley left a record – but was more eager to correct me, than to help, and then to point out the source of his claim.
So the questions still remain and by now I guess they won’t be answered at all…
Love is the law, love under will.
Peace
PS.
Also You simply don’t listen… My second post said this:
“I wasn't asking for any advice; since there are no advices that could possibly help me... But thanks anyway...”
It is YOU who should be asking me for advice, not the other way around, this is why your path will be difficult, since you obviously fail to see a superior when you face one (And being your superior doesn’t make me better! It makes me MORE experienced!). Like I see mine in these forums – this man, my senior, almost twice my age. And here I hang around waiting like a little boy for my spiritual father to spoon-feed me with his tremendous knowledge and experience…
This is why old people today are humiliated and shunned for being senile. The problem with the young having no respect for authority… It’s all about order, and there is today no order in the world of men… Only ignorance… Now I see that you are older than me, so you have to apologize me for using this “tone”.
Therefore I shall do thee the honor of reading your post one more time and see if there is anything for me to extract from it…I always listen, always trying to learn, even from little children… Perhaps it’s not what you intended me to learn, but that doesn’t matter…
Also while we speak and randomly:
People talk of “super consciousness” that mankind is about to go into this new mode of higher consciousness. I think they have mistaken themselves with “knowledge” being a part of the divine. Since man no longer doesn’t understand "simplicity" (truth!), for instance, several of the biblical commandments, he has forgotten about what our forefathers knew about “law and order” several thousand years ago!!!
Now that is called sheer ignorance…
I am therefore not that optimistic, just seeing a simple television show proves my point on man living in sin and also of this very dumbed down society…
There is information and knowledge everywhere and still man is destroying life…
It’s the teachings of Christ that once again has to be brought to the world, the teaching of all prophets that once again has to be revived and brought to the world, with the TBOTL and a few corrections on women, gays, sex (the earlier Osirian suppression of “the Nepesh”) “There is no god but man” etc.
But the lesson is this: ORDER is EVERYTHING… Think of the judge in a court room crying: ORDER! He doesn’t seek to argue, he doesn’t care how right you think you are. He wants ORDER and so do I…
This is what we have forgotten about and what will have to be learned by mankind once again… And less of this new age “mumbo-jumbo” of us all entering an enlightened era… The fool doesn’t know what is coming and what will hit him – we all better start thinking of our own salvation and humble ourselves – before thinking of super consciousness!
Every prophet has come to our world with the intention of restoring order – and base it upon a few principles like the 10 commandments – and this is what will happen once again… You wait and see my friend…
I’m sorry but I am old fashioned and I also got a bit of a temper… You are a good man and I won’t use this tone of mine against you ever again. You were the one having to take the blow that others before you provoked.
Peace and much love!
DS.
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"[]... we all better start thinking of our own salvation and humble ourselves – before thinking of super consciousness! "
I for once need to learn how to humble myself... I apologize for the harsh tone in my post and for coming to rushed conclusions of what you were saying. I know you were just trying to be helpful...
Perhaps that Shrink of yours isn't such a bad suggestion after all.
Btw I read Perdurabo many years ago, but I can't remember him being very specific about Crowley's "abyss-experience".
93 93/93
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"
I ALSO have had several "episodes" of what you call depression and I know perfectly well how to differ a depression from what I'm going through. The first thing that differs is the "pain", inside. There is no pain in depression, there is perhaps a little and more "greyness" and "sadness."Read again, what I describe here can’t be connected to a simple “depression” "
That's to my point. IMHO, it's not "simple" depression, it's serious depression. One of the hallmarks of serious depression is that you believe wholeheartedly that what you're going through is completely unique and/or that nothing or no one could possibly ever help you. That's why serious depression can be so sinister. IMHO, you need professional help and internet forums are not going to serve your needs.
There is a strong relationship between Crowley's advice to "learn to control thought" in Liber Librae (v. 18, and in the preceding and following advice therein) and what Dr. Burns says in Feeling Good: The New Mood Therapy.
"Your emotions result entirely from the way you look at things. It is an obvious neurological fact that before you can experience any event, you must process it with your mind and give it meaning. You must understand what is happening to you before you can feel it.
If your understanding of what is happening is accurate, your emotions will be normal. If your perception is twisted and distorted in some way, your emotional response will be abnormal. Depression falls into this category. It is always the result of mental "static'--distortions. Your blue moods can be compared to the scratchy music coming from a radio that is not properly tuned to the station. The problem is not that the tubes or transistors are blown out or defective, or that the signal from the radio stations is distorted as a result of bad weather. You just simply have to adjust the dials. When you learn to bring aout this mental tuning, the music will come through clearly again and your depression will lift.
Some readers--maybe you--will experience a pang of despair when they read that paragraph. Yet there is nothing upsetting about it. If anything, the paragraph should bring hope. Then what caused your mood to plunge as you were reading? It was your thought, "For other people a little tuning may suffice. But I'm the radio that is broken beyond repair. My tubes are blown out. I don't care if ten thousand other depressed patienst all get well--I'm convinced beyond any shadow of doubt that my problems are hopeless." I hear this statement fifty times a week! Nearly every depressed person seems convinved beyond all rhyme or reason that he or she is the special one who really is beyond all hope. This delusion reflects the kind of mental processing that is at the very core of your illness! (Harper: 2009. Pp. 29-31. Italics are Burns'; bolds and underlines are mine.)"
Burns calls these "mental delusions" cognitive distortions. Here's a link to them.
Like I said, I'm not offering advice, just my humble opinions. What have you got to lose? Look into it. The worst that could happen if you do is that you can dismiss it as rubbish.
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"I’m sorry but I am old fashioned and I also got a bit of a temper… You are a good man and I won’t use this tone of mine against you ever again. You were the one having to take the blow that others before you provoked.
Peace and much love!
DS."
Don't sweat it. I can take the blows. I've been through a lot. I did not take it personally. Maybe my empathy is my own delusion, but I think I have at least some clue as to what you're experiencing.
Peace and love back at you.
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PS:
I thougth "the abyss" for Thelemites was just the great gulf or void between the phenomenal world of manifestation and its noumenal source, and that as such "crossing" it is not necessarily a "negative" experience?
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@landis said
"PS:
I thougth "the abyss" for Thelemites was just the great gulf or void between the phenomenal world of manifestation and its noumenal source, and that as such "crossing" it is not necessarily a "negative" experience?"
That's not a bad way to put it, which is why it is generally agreed that the Hawk Headed Child is not encountering "crossing the Abyss" as he believes. His life may feel abysmal to him, and there are numerous abysses in life we can fall into, but not to be confused with the journey across reality where the danger is actually to fall into the beliefs of "because."
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@landis said
"Maybe my empathy is my own delusion, but I think I have at least some clue as to what you're experiencing."
Since that empathy of yours got me curious... Let me ask you a personal question: Can you make yourself: Vulnerable... or are you running from yourself, having this control issue: "The need to focus on other people's problems" and "to take care of other people"?
I ask because I feel it's hard to reach you; to touch your heart... It's like talking to a wall...
I know you think you know what I suffer from! You are very stubborn (The wall thing!) And if I would have had the problems you think that I have - you would be the one I would like to talk to...
But I don't... And I also know it doesn't matter what I say to you, because it would be like going to the shrink and trying to convince him that I am not sick and he responds by saying:"What you are saying now is also a symptom of your disease!"
There is no way I can win this argument... No way in hell, you are to stubborn for that (The wall thing)... No hard feelings but your heart is shut and I can feel it...
Love is the law, love under will.
Peace
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@Takamba said
"
@landis said
"PS:I thougth "the abyss" for Thelemites was just the great gulf or void between the phenomenal world of manifestation and its noumenal source, and that as such "crossing" it is not necessarily a "negative" experience?"
That's not a bad way to put it, which is why it is generally agreed that the Hawk Headed Child is not encountering "crossing the Abyss" as he believes. His life may feel abysmal to him, and there are numerous abysses in life we can fall into, but not to be confused with the journey across reality where the danger is actually to fall into the beliefs of "because.""
Landis, Takamba,
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
What you guys are talking about sounds like a sunday pick nick... It makes me think of the time before meeting my HGA: "The dark night of the soul". During this period of my life I had to overcome many fears that "because" tried to sweep beneath the carpet by "rationalizing". I had to be strong; be decisive; not to think in endless loops show courage and to move forward...
But now that I recall, being down here in the darkness... In the beginning of my experience 2,5 years ago I went against my reason all the time! I did many things which my reason questioned and protested against... Ahhh and still does, like now when I don't get any work done! And I feel it's a pure waste of time... Thanks for reminding me!
Why would people fear the abyss? If there was only such a simple as a thing as avoiding falling prey for "because"? That is ridiculous! Of course there is suffering - more than you can possibly imagine. What is it that you "Tambaka" fail to understand with "The vision and the voice?" Let me try to bring you some understanding:
Here abideth terror, and the blind ache of the Soul…[] And he said: Thou hast entered the night; dost thou yet lust for day? Sorrow is my name and affliction. I am girt about with tribulation. Here still hangs the Crucified One, and here the Mother weeps over the children that she hath not borne. Sterility is my name and desolation. Intolerable is thine ache, and incurable thy wound.”
What part is it that YOU don't understand? "blind ache of the Soul"? "Sorrow is my name and affliction"? "Intolerable is thine ache, and incurable thy wound."?Do you think these are words of expression!? I have LIVED those words daily for 2,5 years - so please show some **** respect! Actually suffering is a "sacrament" and that is what the Master of the Temple understands... starting to...
My experience is negative, but then also positive, but why pay attention to that which contradict your own reasoning?
Love is the law, love under will.
Peace
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Where's your 7=4 thesis?
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"
@landis said
"Maybe my empathy is my own delusion, but I think I have at least some clue as to what you're experiencing."Since that empathy of yours got me curious... Let me ask you a personal question: Can you make yourself: Vulnerable... or are you running from yourself, having this control issue: "The need to focus on other people's problems" and "to take care of other people"?
I ask because I feel it's hard to reach you; to touch your heart... It's like talking to a wall...
I know you think you know what I suffer from! You are very stubborn (The wall thing!) And if I would have had the problems you think that I have - you would be the one I would like to talk to...
But I don't... And I also know it doesn't matter what I say to you, because it would be like going to the shrink and trying to convince him that I am not sick and he responds by saying:"What you are saying now is also a symptom of your disease!"
There is no way I can win this argument... No way in hell, you are to stubborn for that (The wall thing)... No hard feelings but your heart is shut and I can feel it...
Love is the law, love under will.
Peace"
Have you read the books I recommended? If not, are you going to? If you're in that much pain you have little or nothing to lose.
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"I feel it's hard to reach you; to touch your heart... It's like talking to a wall..."
Precisely and specifically wich part of this
""I don't care if ten thousand other depressed patienst all get well--I'm convinced beyond any shadow of doubt that my problems are hopeless." I hear this statement fifty times a week! Nearly every depressed person seems convinved beyond all rhyme or reason that he or she is the special one who really is beyond all hope. This delusion reflects the kind of mental processing that is at the very core of your illness!"
feels like your'e talking to a wall?Are you able to admit you're seriously depressed? Unless you do that, everyone you talk to about this will feel like a wall.
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@Patrick Ossoski said
"Where's your 7=4 thesis?"
Patrick Ossoski,
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
I wrote and created this small book - that must be considered to be my "thesis". It wasn't a conscious decision that:
"Now I am going to write this 7=4 thesis", since I at the time didn't know for sure where I was at... My current initiation whereabouts so to say. I couldn't tell if I was 6=5, 7=4 or a babe of the abyss everything was moving so fast and I had no experience and had no way of telling for sure...
I understood this much later... Perhaps, since Jim was so nice to tell me a little about the first 6=5 gate (Which I could relate to), could you Jim or somebody else tell me something about the other two gates?
Love is the law, love under will.
Peace
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@landis said
"
@The_Hawkheaded_child said
"I feel it's hard to reach you; to touch your heart... It's like talking to a wall..."
Precisely and specifically wich part of this
""I don't care if ten thousand other depressed patienst all get well--I'm convinced beyond any shadow of doubt that my problems are hopeless." I hear this statement fifty times a week! Nearly every depressed person seems convinved beyond all rhyme or reason that he or she is the special one who really is beyond all hope. This delusion reflects the kind of mental processing that is at the very core of your illness!"
feels like your'e talking to a wall?Are you able to admit you're seriously depressed? Unless you do that, everyone you talk to about this will feel like a wall.
"Have you read the books I recommended? If not, are you going to? If you're in that much pain you have little or nothing to lose."
"Landis,
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
1.) No I haven't. read those books. And No I won't read them.
2.) It's YOU... Only YOU... YOU don't listen - I asked you a question!? Let's talk about YOU... only YOU!
You can't show vulnerability! Do you know how to cry? Your heart is shut, you are "numb", and It is YOUR heart that i can't touch... It is YOU I can't reach... But YOU prefer thinking that it's ME... Well it's not... YOU are like a WALL... YOU don't listen!
Are YOU on medication? Antidepressants?
Go back and give my question a serious thought and answer me and show me that YOU know how to listen...
vulnerability! vulnerability! vulnerability! Do you know what that is?
Love is the law, love under will.
Peace
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"It's YOU... Only YOU... YOU don't listen - I asked you a question!? Let's talk about YOU... only YOU!
You can't show vulnerability! Do you know how to cry? Your heart is shut, you are "numb", and It is YOUR heart that i can't touch... It is YOU I can't reach... But YOU prefer thinking that it's ME... Well it's not... YOU are like a WALL... YOU don't listen!"
That does sound abyss-like.
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@Patrick Ossoski said
"
@The_Hawkheaded_child said
"It's YOU... Only YOU... YOU don't listen - I asked you a question!? Let's talk about YOU... only YOU!You can't show vulnerability! Do you know how to cry? Your heart is shut, you are "numb", and It is YOUR heart that i can't touch... It is YOU I can't reach... But YOU prefer thinking that it's ME... Well it's not... YOU are like a WALL... YOU don't listen!"
That does sound abyss-like.
"Hahaha you made me laugh!
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Hi that's Choronzon. I will not let you cross !
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"
@landis said
"
@The_Hawkheaded_child said
"I feel it's hard to reach you; to touch your heart... It's like talking to a wall..."
Precisely and specifically wich part of this
""I don't care if ten thousand other depressed patienst all get well--I'm convinced beyond any shadow of doubt that my problems are hopeless." I hear this statement fifty times a week! Nearly every depressed person seems convinved beyond all rhyme or reason that he or she is the special one who really is beyond all hope. This delusion reflects the kind of mental processing that is at the very core of your illness!"
feels like your'e talking to a wall?Are you able to admit you're seriously depressed? Unless you do that, everyone you talk to about this will feel like a wall.
"Have you read the books I recommended? If not, are you going to? If you're in that much pain you have little or nothing to lose."
"Landis,
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
1.) No I haven't. read those books. And No I won't read them.
2.) It's YOU... Only YOU... YOU don't listen - I asked you a question!? Let's talk about YOU... only YOU!
You can't show vulnerability! Do you know how to cry? Your heart is shut, you are "numb", and It is YOUR heart that i can't touch... It is YOU I can't reach... But YOU prefer thinking that it's ME... Well it's not... YOU are like a WALL... YOU don't listen!
Are YOU on medication? Antidepressants?
Go back and give my question a serious thought and answer me and show me that YOU know how to listen...
vulnerability! vulnerability! vulnerability! Do you know what that is?
Love is the law, love under will.
Peace"
What happened to your promise not to use that tone with me ever again?
You didn't asnwer my question about precision and specificity.
Why won't you read those books? The worse that could happen is you'll be able to use them to prove me wrong.
Why do you want to know if I'm on meds? I didn't ask you if you were.
Are you a mind reader?
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@Patrick Ossoski said
"
@The_Hawkheaded_child said
"It's YOU... Only YOU... YOU don't listen - I asked you a question!? Let's talk about YOU... only YOU!You can't show vulnerability! Do you know how to cry? Your heart is shut, you are "numb", and It is YOUR heart that i can't touch... It is YOU I can't reach... But YOU prefer thinking that it's ME... Well it's not... YOU are like a WALL... YOU don't listen!"
That does sound abyss-like.
"
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"2.) It's YOU... Only YOU... YOU don't listen - I asked you a question!? Let's talk about YOU... only YOU!"
We just "met." You've had this problem, as you've stated over and over, "2, 5 years," so it couldn't possibly have anything to do with ME, ME, ME! -
Landis,
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
@landis said
"What happened to your promise not to use that tone with me ever again?"
I was quite "persuasive" and put some "pressure" back on to you, but I wasn't harsh was I? At least know this: I didn't intend to be harsh, just pressure-like and persuasive.
@landis said
"
@The_Hawkheaded_child said
"2.) It's YOU... Only YOU... YOU don't listen - I asked you a question!? Let's talk about YOU... only YOU!"
We just "met." You've had this problem, as you've stated over and over, "2, 5 years," so it couldn't possibly have anything to do with ME, ME, ME!"It always has everything to do with ourselves, as I see it... I think all this is all about YOU, but we can keep talking about ME if you want.... I just felt I were on to something, that's all.
@landis said
""I don't care if ten thousand other depressed patienst all get well--I'm convinced beyond any shadow of doubt that my problems are hopeless." I hear this statement fifty times a week! Nearly every depressed person seems convinved beyond all rhyme or reason that he or she is the special one who really is beyond all hope. This delusion reflects the kind of mental processing that is at the very core of your illness!"
I don't feel hopelessness even though I can ask the question: "Am I lost?" But I know it's the dying ego of a man asking, wanting to know where I am in the process and how far I got left... I therefor don't want help getting out of what you think is a depression. I want the Lord to have me down here until he sees me fit to move on... Actually he would piss me off if he let me out of it any sooner!
@landis said
"Are you able to admit you're seriously depressed? Unless you do that, everyone you talk to about this will feel like a wall."
I wouldn't use the word "depressed", since that would give you the wrong idea where I am at. But okey, my state of mind might share some of the symptoms of a serious depression. I don't know... But if we are talking about the 10 "cognitive distortions" from the link that you gave me. I DID read them for YOUR sake, and it was of course a waste of time, since I couldn't relate to any of them - None - Nada - Zip! They all were something that might have had been an issue many years ago, but if so, has been dealt with a long long time ago...
This is why I won't read the books you recommended... Because I don't feel depressed... I keep telling you that there is joy too, but it's like talking to this wall. You simply won't listen.
@landis said
"You didn't answer my question about precision and specificity."
Have I answered your questions now? You need other data?
@landis said
"Why won't you read those books? The worse that could happen is you'll be able to use them to prove me wrong."
I won't read those books since I don't have the problems you are talking about, Once again: I read the link that you gave me for YOUR sake; the 10 cognitive distortions". I couldn't relate at all. Been there done that.
Now Agent Starling before we go any futher; I would like to have some of my questions answered since this "vulnerability issue" (?) makes you keep running away from them:
Let me repeat:
*Since that empathy of yours got me curious... Let me ask YOU a personal question: Can YOU make yourself:
**Vulnerable... **
Or are YOU running from yourself, having this control issue: "The need to focus on other people's problems" and "to take care of other people"?*
@landis said
"Why do you want to know if I'm on meds? I didn't ask you if you were. Are you a mind reader?"
Were I a mind reader? I were right, weren't I? Because meds are a serious thing: They block emotions and shut down the hearts of men... I also felt it is hard to reach you... To touch your heart... And since you put yourself in a spot where you think you can diagnose and help another man... It becomes a trusty-issue... Therefor I ask this question: Are YOU on any medication?
Love is the law, love under will.
Peace.