Influencing people through magick
-
I've tried several times to influence people through magick. Each time, it has not gotten the results I wanted. Sometimes I wonder about the ethics of it. Am I messing with people's true wills by influencing them to do or not do certain things, or to think or not think certain other things?
I've been wondering what other thelemites think about this, so I thought I would ask here.
-
@Shadow Self said
"I've tried several times to influence people through magick. Each time, it has not gotten the results I wanted. Sometimes I wonder about the ethics of it. Am I messing with people's true wills by influencing them to do or not do certain things, or to think or not think certain other things?
I've been wondering what other thelemites think about this, so I thought I would ask here."
Taking "magick" in its broadest sense -- to mean any act of causing change to occur in conformity to Will, in the sense that Crowley says that blowing one's nose can be considered a magical act -- it is an important magical skill to be able to influence others.
Typically, this is accomplished through a particular kind of incantation known as "persuasive speech or writing." And while argumentation is an important magical weapon in this field, so too are the weapons of emotional appeal, manipulation, seducation, and many different implements, all of which need to be constructed, polished up, and "consecrated" to the Great Work if one intends to be a successful magician.
As Crowley puts it in his most famous work on Magick:
@Crowley said
"ANY required change may be effected by the application of the proper kind and degree of Force in the proper manner, through the proper medium to the proper object.
[...]
Every successful act has conformed to the postulate.
[...]
Every failure proves that one or more requirements of the postulate have not been fulfilled.(Illustrations: There may be failure to understand the case, as when a doctor makes a wrong diagnosis, and his treatment injures the patient. There may be a failure to apply the right kind of force, as when a rustic tries to blow out an electric light. There may be failure to apply the right degree of force, as when a wrestler has his hold broken, There may be failure to apply the force in the right manner, as when one presents a cheque at the wrong window of the Bank. There may be failure to employ the correct medium, as when Leonardo da Vinci saw his masterpiece fade away. The force may be applied to an unsuitable object, as when one tries to crack a stone, thinking it a nut.)"
You'll notice, naturally, how mundane all of these examples are, demonstrating the relevance of the study of magick to daily life -- or, rather, the conception of everyday life as magick itself.
Every instance of persuading someone to act in a certain way is an application of force, which needs to be "proper" in "form and degree," exactly as Crowley illustrates above. For many people, a good argument will be sufficient to persuade them: for many others, different kinds of appeals will be needed. It is only by studying the facts of the case that the individual will be able to decide which magical tool to use and how to apply it.
The important part of Crowley's definition is, of course, the "in conformity with Will" part: you need to demonstrate to yourself that it is your Will to persuade someone else and -- in order to avoid "lust of result" -- you need to rid yourself completely of the delusion that actually succeeding in convincing the other party will be anything other than one more blip in the adventure that is your life. In the grand scheme, success or failure at any particular magical operation is irrelevant.
In terms of Thelema, it is, of course, not against the principles of Thelema to try to get other people to act differently than they might otherwise do: the Book of the Law is explicit on the point that wills may conflict and that the stronger will -- in this case, the more persuasive will -- wins out. There is nothing anti-Thelemic about practicing this form of magick. In fact, if it is a person's will to persuade another, the Book of the Law requires the individual to do so.
It should go without saying, of course, that attempting to "influence people" by performing some kind of inane ceremony doesn't work. That would be an example of improperly applying force, and it may be the source of the OP's failures in this matter.
-
As a general rule, the more honest you are, the more ethical the result.
I mean several things by that.
First, you have to be honest with yourself, and have clear insight into your own True Will. Otherwise, you're mobilizing people against your own Will.
Second, the best sales results are in getting someone to do what they really want to do anyway. Just as we invoke a god whose nature is in accordance with our desired outcome, we benefit from "invoking" people who want to ride their horse the direction we want it to go. You are then encouraging them in their own authenticity, not standing against it. Often we can do this best by rousing then with our own enthusiasm.
Third, it's better magick to focus on the end, not the means. Influencing others is just a method. It may or may not be the correct means for your particular purposes.
-
Excellent post from Los.
One thing to add, coming from what he said here:
@Los said"It should go without saying, of course, that attempting to "influence people" by performing some kind of inane ceremony doesn't work. That would be an example of improperly applying force, and it may be the source of the OP's failures in this matter."
You're right, the ceremony is bunk if the goal is to influence others by some sort of imagined parapsychological link, but ceremony still has a place in this kind of magick. What can be done with it is that one can use ritual to alter oneself to be the kind of person that the desired result would occur to naturally, or to make oneself a carrier for the change you wish to see in the other person so that it spreads by psychological habit and 'auric' or ambient contagion. Invoke a godform that embodies an idea, become the idea, make the idea seem praiseworthy to the target by being a shining example of it, then watch them strive to adopt it themselves--if circumstances allow that kind of interaction(afterwards, you can banish the acquired qualities from yourself as you like, while they remain planted in the other person).
Ever see Inception?
Also just saw Jim's post, excellent too, so much so that I've nothing to add but a recommendation to consider it thoroughly.
-
@P is for Pomegranate said
"You're right, the ceremony is bunk if the goal is to influence others by some sort of imagined parapsychological link, but ceremony still has a place in this kind of magick. What can be done with it is that one can use ritual to alter oneself to be the kind of person that the desired result would occur to naturally, or to make oneself a carrier for the change you wish to see in the other person so that it spreads by psychological habit and 'auric' or ambient contagion."
Well, at least you're suggesting something that sounds like it has a chance of working, but I remain deeply skeptical that such a thing actually does work. Say you want to convince someone to go out on a date with you. Which is going to be more effective: "invoking Venus" by walking around in a circle while drawing funny signs in the air and loudly declaiming bad poetry in your bedroom, or "invoking Venus" by learning the interests of your potential date, familiarizing yourself with subjects that he or she likes to talk about, and then putting into practice conversational skills that you've hopefully practiced over the course of many years?
Now sure, you could say, "But performing ritual gives me confidence, and that confidence lets me affect people all the better!" Yeah, but it's one thing to say that and another for it to be true. There was some study a while back that suggested that daily affirmations -- you know, where you look in the mirror in the morning and tell yourself encouraging things over and over like, "I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and gosh darnit, people like me!" -- actually don't make people feel better about themselves at all. They're supposed to make people feel better, and some people think they do, but there's at least some reason to think that they actually ultimately make people feel worse about themselves because they can't live up to the ideals they're repeating in the mirror.
But even if you were the kind of person who gets more confident from doing silly rituals, I would still argue that it's largely superfluous to the real magick, which is figuring out how to apply the proper form and degree of force to the situation.
And all of this goes back to one of my fundamental points: rather than just trust that doing X makes you Y, you need to put in the time and energy to figure out what is actually going on when you do this stuff.
-
I don't want people to get the idea that I just stand around my room doing rituals. I do talk to people about what ever it is you know. I've done some, sure, but that would hardly be most of the work I have done to try and influence people. Talking doesn't work. Posting notices where people might be interested doesn't work. I've already gone through and though of many mundane thing I might conceivably do and then done them.
-
@Shadow Self said
"I don't want people to get the idea that I just stand around my room doing rituals. I do talk to people about what ever it is you know. I've done some, sure, but that would hardly be most of the work I have done to try and influence people. Talking doesn't work. Posting notices where people might be interested doesn't work. I've already gone through and though of many mundane thing I might conceivably do and then done them."
Well, can you give us one or two examples of something you want to influence others to do? Maybe we could discuss the necessary form and degree of force for accomplishing such goals.
-
@Los said
"
Well, at least you're suggesting something that sounds like it has a chance of working, but I remain deeply skeptical that such a thing actually does work. Say you want to convince someone to go out on a date with you. Which is going to be more effective: "invoking Venus" by walking around in a circle while drawing funny signs in the air and loudly declaiming bad poetry in your bedroom, or "invoking Venus" by learning the interests of your potential date, familiarizing yourself with subjects that he or she likes to talk about, and then putting into practice conversational skills that you've hopefully practiced over the course of many years?"Oh, I by no means meant it as a replacement for all of these things, only an augmentation of them, a way of engaging the situation from all planes available. The language you use, "funny signs... bad poetry", belittles the psychological utility of symbols with a universal resonance in human consciousness being used to influence psyche orientation, but I won't hold semantics against you.
@Shadow Self said
"I don't want people to get the idea that I just stand around my room doing rituals. I do talk to people about what ever it is you know. I've done some, sure, but that would hardly be most of the work I have done to try and influence people. Talking doesn't work. Posting notices where people might be interested doesn't work. I've already gone through and though of many mundane thing I might conceivably do and then done them.
"@Los said
"
Well, can you give us one or two examples of something you want to influence others to do? Maybe we could discuss the necessary form and degree of force for accomplishing such goals."Yes, what Los said. Best built from the ground up.
-
@Los said
"
Well, can you give us one or two examples of something you want to influence others to do? Maybe we could discuss the necessary form and degree of force for accomplishing such goals."
I would love to give examples here, but I've heard several times that one should not discuss one's magickal work, because then it won't work. I fear I have already said to much, and hinted and too much on this forum. So that is why it doesn't work, because I can't shut up about it. On the other hand, I never said much about it before, so if it didn't work before, then why would it start working now.
-
@kasper81 said
"there's an important variable missing here. "Making others conform to "our will" ". Isn't that what teenagers do when they successfully get the cash contents of a grocery store till after they have held a gun to the owner's face and demanded that he put the cash in the bag? etc"
I'm not going to force people to do stuff against their will, in one of the situations, its more like preventing people from doing a certain thing. In the other case, its about attracting a certain kind of person (not in a romantic sense).
-
"*I've tried several times to influence people through magick. Each time, i have not gotten the results I wanted. Sometimes I wonder about the ethics of it. Am I messing with people's true wills by influencing them to do or not do certain things, or to think or not think certain other things?
I've been wondering what other thelemites think about this, so I thought I would ask here*"
When I was a teen and first started working with magical principles I tried to influence people with spells and rituals. I also tried to influence those same people with words and actions. In my cases I was trying to stop addicts from using, gamblers from gambling, thieves from stealing, bullies/ sadists from hurting.
I truly believed that those behaviors of those people were not life enhancing, and not only hurting the victims but the perp. Themselves and the circle of people around them.Each one of my attempts ended absolutely horrible. In ways I had no intentions of bringing to pass.
Yet, I think it is imperative for a person to grasp the idea that...It is natural to seek meaning between action but the psychological imprint that can and most likely will insue after an attempt to change a relationship ( influence others) can be more challenging to cope with then the original challenge.
...In my mind, my thought process was something like
Person x s behavior is not life enhancing
I know a better way, healthier way
Mundane attempt to communicate alternative
Magical attempt to force alternative
The end result is achieved, but the means was more harmful.
My mind associated my behavior (spell) with result.So as a personal example, a had a thieving alcoholic boyfriend when I was 16. He stole, was incarcerated and bail was five grand. I did a spell, for him to get that cash. In a week his grandma died and he got the cash. Yet, he never changed his thieving ways, maybe if he hadn't gotten bailed out he would have had an epiphany and changed.
My mind automatically associated my ritual to her death, and his cash., it found a correlation and applied meaning, in my own head that I swallowed hook line and sinker. Regardless of the facts, ( ie she was a ninty year old smoker) I believed if I hadn't done that spell she would be alive and from that moment on I acted differently based upon that belief.
I realized that it is incredibly easy to do spells and get results, but that the way that nature unfolds it is most times impossible to predict how a desired result will actually unfold, and that they will unfold in unwanted ways. ( ie you pray for some to stop smoking, and they die....well their not smoking anymore are they.)
It is a challenge for me, a limitation to hold that belief. It does not serve me, nor fulfill a true need. It does serve the wonderful purpose of allowing me to get in my true authentic selfs way. If I truly have the power to direct the currents of life and death and bend life to my will, that demands of me to take complete control of the only thing in this world that I do have complete control over....my own life. It demands of me to be impeccable, to have complete integrity, to be the Star, Every moment of every day. It demands of me to have my life in complete order, in harmony so that ever single cell of my being is in complete congruence and accordance with Divine Will, which in my world is Love.
I have had more then my share of troubles and heart aches (IMO of course). I have made mistakes, some mistakes I have made over and over again. Cause I just don't get it yet ( I am in capable of seeing what pattern the behavior is, or incapable of dealing with it). Yet, I will honestly say that if I could go back and time and prevent those experiences from happening, prevent that jerk from hurting me, prevent that specific action from occuring I wouldn't. I would not deny myself the experience of any aspect of my life, for it is has gotten me to the here and now.
My action and responses got me into all of my situations. My healthy behaviors got me invited to fun birthday parties, and behaviors that I could not see got me invited into a van with a gun in my mouth. But if I was to take away that experience of that gun, if someone else prayed for me to not go through that experience, to tell me Veronica you are making bad choices, let me make some choices for you...at that time I may not have gotten into that specific van, but because I was not capable of dealing with my own personal behaviors, responses....I would just have been denied that one experience, and because nature is the iteration of patterns, I would have still found myself in a similar van. I was not capable of wielding the tools to make healthy choices.
When we try to influence others what I see happening in most cases is that we have empathy towards another, and we want to help them. Often times we think we have the solution to there problems, we know what the right tool to use is, how to properly translate the entire situation, because....well we all have our own because and it is usually based upon experience, and our ego saying, " i know what is best." But really our need to influence others behaviors is based on our own survival, the deep rooted need to sway others to validate our own choices.
We feel uncomfortable and want to change that uncomfortableness. Which IMO, is selfish and egotistical. A person who we see as suffering and needing help and guidance reminds us how fragile we are, which is very frighten g for many.
Yet if I truly knew what was best, wouldn't my life be nothing but healthy choices that are in accordance with the higher laws of nature, my life would be completely balanced, harmonious, nirvana, bliss, if I knew what was best And was capable of acting on that knowledge. But sometimes life tosses some strange curve ball at us, something that we have little basis for comparison, something that reminds us of our true limits and capabilities.
I don't always know what's best for me, I still trip and fall. Yet I know that their are people in the world who are better then me, making better choices, reading better books, working harder and sharing more. I know because when ever I fall down, or have a tear on my cheek they are there with a hand up. And they show me how they have overcome an obstacle, they model behaviors for me so that when I am ready I can do what they have done, if I so choose.
I have learned the hard way that many many people do not want to be the best they can be. They ( including me btw) enjoy being stuck, being helpless, being sick, being wounded. It's comfortable for them, for we are living in a culture which reinforces slave mentality, reinforces sin, and reinforces the belief that humans are inherently sick creatures. Being the best you can be, ie not behaving in self destructive ways, demands living in the now, letting go of the anger from the past, and not projecting into the future which causes worry. Being present in the moment is a capability that many people are not ready to handle. By attempting to influence others, with words or action or secret rites, you may be doing more harm then good, you may be overloading the person. They may not be capable of processing the information, and they may even rebel violently/pridefully.
I have a concept of myself that I hold near and dear. It is a concept of myself fully actualized, my authentic self powerful,capable, and in accordance with the Law ( which is Love). Some would say it's my HGA. This concept is there for me to draw strength from when I encounter challenges in my life.
" the virtue of ordeals is foremost that, in our struggling through them, they disclose us to ourselves.". Jim Eshelman
If we go around influencing others, we may very likely be denying them the struggle they need so that they are gifted with self disclosure. I also think that attempting to influence others is an attempt to avoid self reflection and personal behavior modi faction. It is a vain attempt to assert the ego, (in most cases,) to avoid self suffering, and sin ( restriction).
I have learned though that many people want to learn how to dance, to live life to the fullest... they know there are ways to cope, ways to get courage ...ways to overcome. The absolutely best way to influence people to take control of there lives, to influence them to seek therenown North Star, to be the Star they were born to be.....is to step out, step up and show them by being a living example, a model in which they can choose to follow, and emulate if they want to. Chose to dance with, until they can make up there own dance moves.
If they do not make the choice themselves, ( informed consent) to change....and you try to force something.....you are in effect pilling up garbage on yourself.
-
@Shadow Self said
"I would love to give examples here, but I've heard several times that one should not discuss one's magical work, because then it won't work."
And why exactly do you think that might be true?
Remember, by "magick" we're talking about -- or at least I'm talking about -- regular ol' everyday stuff, like talking to people. There's no way that talking about that could cause it to fail.
-
@ Veronica -- that was beautiful and echoed many of my own experiences!
93 93/93
-
I've always been very careful to word my spell requests properly. After reading some stories about people who experienced the so called monkeys paw effect, I decided, before every request to write out things like no destruction of my or my families property, and no harm to any one close to me etc. So far that has worked out pretty well. I don't mean to imply that I'm trying to stop bad people from doing bad things, or that I am trying to prevent people from experiencing the consequences of their actions.
As far as the silence about exactly what spells I have tried to cast, I have heard over and over from various magicians that one should not talk about ones work that one is trying to do, because it will cause spells to fail. That is probably why you don't hear to much about spells that didn't work, especially if the magician is going to try to do another similar spell again. I do have doubts however that this is always true under all circumstances, but that is the reason I am reluctant to talk about the exact nature of the request.
-
@Shadow Self said
" that is the reason I am reluctant to talk about the exact nature of the request."
Yes... as far as you feel this way i think you can only be right...
Personaly i think it depends mostly on to WHO EXACTLY you talk about the stuff. Both because of their actual intent(conscious or/and unconscious) and because of what you project on them.
For instance i would have no problem talking to a guy like Jim(and actually most of the members here). It might actually help me do better. Because even if(i guess) he would be as neutral as possible, my projections on him are positive and congruent with magick(as far as i dont do black magick or something). And i'm sure if he influences me unconsciously it will be in a good way. Now, with a guy like Los(and a couple others), it would be exactly the opposite. Because even if he doesnt want consciously(which i'm not even sure) to make magick NOT work... i let you guess.
And if it's "completely" neutral(almost) it might divide some forces i guess, so it might be good to keep silent. More complicated than it seems in my opinion. But there's a "feeling" about when you can and when you cant isnt it?
On the other hand it can be as an interesting "test" to deliberately talk "too much" sometimes. A test both for you and for the persons you talk to...
-
@Los said
"
@Shadow Self said
"I would love to give examples here, but I've heard several times that one should not discuss one's magical work, because then it won't work."And why exactly do you think that might be true?
Remember, by "magick" we're talking about -- or at least I'm talking about -- regular ol' everyday stuff, like talking to people. There's no way that talking about that could cause it to fail."
Fear.
Other peoples projected fear onto you, which can turn to anger and hatred and get millions of innocent human being burned at the stake.
Never forget the burning times.
It is taught to not talk about magick and spell work with others because you never know how that person will receive that information and what they will do with it.
It really wasn't that long ago, but I guess modern technology and www have separated us from that very real part of human history.
At one point in my past I was approached to move down south, to Georgia. Now, I don't go around all bedeckeled with my spirituality on my shoulder, casting spells and looking like some flashback gypsy woman. Yet I know with out a doubt that the liberty I enjoy in liberal NY, I would not receive there. In fact my open, tolerant and liberated would be seen as a direct threat and I would be subjected to others peoples fears and projection. No offense to any GA residents, and I know things are getting better.
That is one reason why it is taught to not talk about your Work.
There are a few others, one which I relate to the most blessed operation of baking a cake.Magical recipes are like real recipes.
You have a need....hungry
You look for ways to fill the need....go to pantry
Examine your options...... See what you can do with available resources
Gather resources.....
Properly mix
Put into appropriate vessel. ( my favorite part)
Add energy......put into oven and heat
Keep the energy contained until done.....no peeking, which leaks out your energy and heat.Talking about you Work is like opening that oven door ever five minutes to see if it's done.
That loss of energy may seen insignificant if you are just roasting a pig, but can mean complete failure and waste of ingredients if you were making a cheese soufflette. -
@Angel of Death said
"Magical recipes are like real recipes.
You have a need....hungry
You look for ways to fill the need....go to pantry
Examine your options...... See what you can do with available resources
Gather resources.....
Properly mix
Put into appropriate vessel. ( my favorite part)
Add energy......put into oven and heat
Keep the energy contained until done.....no peeking, which leaks out your energy and heat.Talking about you Work is like opening that oven door ever five minutes to see if it's done.
That loss of energy may seen insignificant if you are just roasting a pig, but can mean complete failure and waste of ingredients if you were making a cheese soufflette."Very nice analogy!
-
@Simon Iff said
"
@Angel of Death said
"Magical recipes are like real recipes.
You have a need....hungry
You look for ways to fill the need....go to pantry
Examine your options...... See what you can do with available resources
Gather resources.....
Properly mix
Put into appropriate vessel. ( my favorite part)
Add energy......put into oven and heat
Keep the energy contained until done.....no peeking, which leaks out your energy and heat.Talking about you Work is like opening that oven door ever five minutes to see if it's done.
That loss of energy may seen insignificant if you are just roasting a pig, but can mean complete failure and waste of ingredients if you were making a cheese soufflette."Very nice analogy!"
I believe that a “like” option would be very useful now.
-
Thanks.
It's amazing how mundane tasks are useful in ways we don't easily see.
I got a good one about following through behaviors that advocates recycling