The Essence of Thelema
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@Los said
"...Crowley's..."The Scientific Solution to the Problem of Government" reads like the blueprints to use the framework of Thelema to impose a totalitarian horrorshow on the world."
Why would a moral nihilist (like yourself) care if something's totalitarian or not?
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@Frater 639 said
"I'd like to talk about what people consider the "essence" of Thelema"I never gave my basic answer to this. Here it is. (It is summarized in the interrelationship of three principles, arising out of a single communication.)...
[...]
Three words declare the core principles of Thelema:
- Thelêma, meaning Will
- Agapê, meaning Love
- Tzaba, meaning Star
[...]
"Thanks for posting this, Jim. You touched on this at your Thelema as Method lecture -- and I really enjoyed it. Finish your new book already!!!
When I get a second, I'd like to go further with this idea...while using a Nuit, Hadit, RHK analogy...
HAPPY VENUS DAY!
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@Frater 639 said
"Hello All,
I'd like to talk about what people consider the "essence" of Thelema, as it seems to be a topic of interest lately around the forum. "
I had to give this one a shot - it's been on my mind a lot lately as well, since I always find myself coming back to it in my wanderings.
For me, the essence of Thelema is the direct reference to a unified Will pervading and giving form and purpose to all existence. I see this Will best expressed in the concept of the Ratzohn (I defer to FrAAAAAM's explanation here: heruraha.net/viewtopic.php?p=21931#p21931), or the Egyptian concept of Ma'at, which links it with Truth and a beneficial, generative force of Life/Order/Health/Beauty/Goodness. From that True Will, all things derive their individual True Wills, as they exist when not limited by death or disorder/confusion. The expression of this Will goes from formlessness to form, and thus the individual Wills are restricted by time and place, which cause a separation from their origin and a resulting delusion that they are disconnected from the Source. This cannot happen, in reality. The unity of the True Will is a natural law; it can no more be broken than any other natural law. Flight is an expansion of the Law of Gravity, not a violation of it. But to those who don't know the physics of it, it looks like the power of Gravity is shattered. Same with us, in our lives...by Gnosis, we can perceive the greater workings of the Will even though our senses may insist that we are separate from it, due to the uniqueness of our individual place within it. Nothing that is manifest can do anything other than reflect its nature, which flows from this Source. Even complicated humans with our pesky ability to reason, invent, alter and create are in our abilities reflections of the Intelligence that is a component of this True Will. Yet, in knowing ourselves, we can know All. The reflection that traps us also shows us the way to freedom.
All of my religiousness as a Thelemite, and the ethical code produced by it, derives from this central concept. The state of ignorance caused by the sensual entrapment causes movement against the True Will, which results in Suffering ("isfet", to go back to Ancient Egyptian terms), perpetuating the illusion. Two necessary forces in the world (going back to Empedocles) - Love and Strife, and the purpose of the Thelemic path is to make them both Love. In the natural strife which is built into the way the individual Wills resolve their existence in accordance with the True Will, there is no really harm done - even the compost generates life. It's when something is forced too far out of their nature due to ignorance or delusion that serious injury results, and to even the person responsible for it, since everything is actually connected. You always have to remember that in the True Will, the concept of Time as we know it might as well not exist. The rate at which the skin cell lives and dies is different from that of the Sun, but each are completely necessary to life. So I look at it as a guiding philosophical concept, which I personally try to increasing apply to every aspect of my mundane life. (And in this day and age, that's a real fight, hence the need for a warrior's faith.)
In brief (otherwise I'll be here all night, and that's no way to spend a Friday evening!), the Book of the Law - for me - is a modern explanation of this Reality, given at a specific time and place as an aid to realizing Truth. I don't feel charged at all to accept it as the sole revelation of the Law or as something that opposes the perennial Truths expressed in previous revelations (though just like in scientific discovery, it changes the understanding that precedes it when there are assumptions that are in error.) Crowley wasn't the only one having visions or revelations during this period - in my book, our understanding of the nature of Light which led to the quantum age is probably a far more paradigm-shattering manifestation of the change in human understanding going on. But Crowley's legacy does have a very important lesson and correction, for those of us with the karma of being born into this time and place. I'm personally not bound by what has presented itself so far as
"Thelemic religion," as I found it restrictive to my understanding of the Law, but that fact doesn't cancel out how effective Crowley's work has been as a lens by which to see Reality.In Light, Life, Love and Liberty,
MNA -
@Sr_MNA said
"I had to give this one a shot - it's been on my mind a lot lately as well, since I always find myself coming back to it in my wanderings. "
93,
What a beautiful shot it was! Thanks for sharing. Hope to see more posts...
93 93/93
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@Avshalom Binyamin said
"So the only purpose in discovering will, to you, is to enjoy life more before you die?"
To paraphrase Crowley, one discovers the True Will because one cannot help but do the True Will, and one therefore ought to figure out how to do it well.
"Also, will in your view of the universe is a misnomer, since it's a side effect of biology, and can be changed fundamentally by random circumstance. Right?"
Wrong.
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@Frater 639 said
"But, by your definition -- if you mean essential, then, of course, "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law, etc." is the most important idea of Thelema, as you seem to agree with. But by that definition, a Christian, Buddhist, etc. could be a Thelemite."
Not really. I freely concede that a person could call themselves a Christian Thelemite or a Buddhist Thelemite, and I further concede that a person could redefine those words in ways that make them compatible, but the truth is that those things are incompatible.
"In short, I think the True Will idea is important, but it doesn't say much when studying Thelema as a system or a "practice" -- we'll need to look at practices, if it is to be practiced. Which I'm interested in hearing from you which practices you've found to be essential, as you seem to have a good idea what your True Will is..."
So what you really meant by "The Essence of Thelema" is "The Essence of Thelemic Practice"? If that's what you're driving at, your answer is mindfulness. Mindfulness, willingness to listen, discrimination, and self-discipline.
"You still didn't answer the question of "how is it beneficial to you?""
Discovering one's True Nature allows one to live more authentically, resolving the inner tension produced from inauthentic living.
"Since the core doctrine is "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law, etc.," it implies absolutely that the True Will of an individual can include anything that said True Will "wills" to do -- and they can still call themselves a Thelemite, yes?"
Obviously.
"Going further, a collection of Thelemites can have core beliefs that they agree on, all according to their True Will, which may create a religious system around these beliefs."
Sure. [with the minor quibble that True Will doesn't dictate beliefs...True Will only pertains to action]
"Which, in fact, they have -- it is called Thelema."
Well, no. If they were Thelemites who came together to make a religion, "Thelema" clearly had to predate whatever this religion is that they formed. The religion would be, at best, a religion based around the Law of Thelema. See the OTO as an example: Thelema existed long before Crowley wrote the OTO rituals that comprise their "religious practices," so clearly Thelema cannot be identifiable with those rituals or the religious "teachings" (such as they are) within OTO. Thelema might be expressed through those rituals and teachings, but Thelema cannot be identified with them.
"Your opinion regarding any one else's True Will is your right to have -- in fact, I encourage it -- especially if it is in line with your True Will to have it."
True Will doesn't dictate opinions or thoughts or beliefs: True Will is action.
"However, if Thelema as practice includes finding a person's independent True Will, their True Will could necessarily include NOT just stopping at the individual, or is that too much of a leap in your opinion?"
I have no clue what you're trying to ask here. Rephrase with concrete examples if you want an answer.
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@Los said
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@Avshalom Binyamin said
"So the only purpose in discovering will, to you, is to enjoy life more before you die?"To paraphrase Crowley, one discovers the True Will because one cannot help but do the True Will, and one therefore ought to figure out how to do it well.
"Also, will in your view of the universe is a misnomer, since it's a side effect of biology, and can be changed fundamentally by random circumstance. Right?"
Wrong."
But why should one do ones true will well?
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@Los said
"Not really. I freely concede that a person could call themselves a Christian Thelemite or a Buddhist Thelemite, and I further concede that a person could redefine those words in ways that make them compatible, but the truth is that those things are incompatible."
Please let me know what the truth is.
@Los said
"So what you really meant by "The Essence of Thelema" is "The Essence of Thelemic Practice"? If that's what you're driving at, your answer is mindfulness. Mindfulness, willingness to listen, discrimination, and self-discipline."
So then, mindfulness? Wow.
@Los said
"Discovering one's True Nature allows one to live more authentically, resolving the inner tension produced from inauthentic living. "
You still can't even answer the question. Sad. But maybe non-communication is authentic to you.
@Los said
"Sure. [with the minor quibble that True Will doesn't dictate beliefs...True Will only pertains to action]"
Really? So you're absolutely saying nothing...again.
@Los said
"Well, no. If they were Thelemites who came together to make a religion, "Thelema" clearly had to predate whatever this religion is that they formed. The religion would be, at best, a religion based around the Law of Thelema. See the OTO as an example: Thelema existed long before Crowley wrote the OTO rituals that comprise their "religious practices," so clearly Thelema cannot be identifiable with those rituals or the religious "teachings" (such as they are) within OTO. Thelema might be expressed through those rituals and teachings, but Thelema cannot be identified with them.
"I have no idea what this means. Thelema cannot be identified with people that are following their True Will, regardless of the expression? So weird.
@Los said
"True Will doesn't dictate opinions or thoughts or beliefs: True Will is action."
Opinions and thoughts and beliefs are actions. These can all include aspects of the True Will. Please just don't throw things out there before you think them through. It sounds desperate.
@Los said
"I have no clue what you're trying to ask here. Rephrase with concrete examples if you want an answer.
"I don't expect you to understand. A cooperative seems to be beyond your grasp.
You still have yet to answer any of the questions regarding how Thelema is beneficial to you. You mention "practicing" Thelema, but you can't give me one example of that. Why not?
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@Frater 639 said
" Thanks for sharing. Hope to see more posts..."
And thanks for starting a very-thought provoking thread.
I'm very glad to get drawn back to this board in time for it!LLLL,
MNA -
@Los said
" I freely concede that a person could call themselves a Christian Thelemite or a Buddhist Thelemite, and I further concede that a person could redefine those words in ways that make them compatible, but the truth is that those things are incompatible."
But "those words" can only apply to the labels as you define them, which means that any incompatibility is in your viewpoint, not necessarily anyone else's. For that matter, if you go through any modern denomination of a religion and the source texts/teachings it is based on, there will be incompatibilities....that's the nature of the game. Thelema is already showing that it's not exempt from that tendency.
I feel it's more accurate to say that if you go point by point through the tenets of any given religion and Thelema, there will be points of compatibility AND incompatibility. Crowley's articulation of Thelema drew heavily from his experience and regard for many other religions, as much as the shortcomings as he saw them. The points of incompatibility are very specific and instructive, and the points of compatibility are even more important, as they show the hidden doors. The old question again: Why did Crowley choose to modify the "Cloud Upon the Sanctuary" for "An Account of A.'.A.'.", as part of the design for a vehicle to carry the new Word in the world?
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@Los said
" I freely concede that a person could call themselves a Christian Thelemite or a Buddhist Thelemite, and I further concede that a person could redefine those words in ways that make them compatible, but the truth is that those things are incompatible."
But "those words" can only apply to the labels as you define them, which means that any incompatibility is in your viewpoint, not necessarily anyone else's. For that matter, if you go through any modern denomination of a religion and the source texts/teachings it is based on, there will be incompatibilities....that's the nature of the game. Thelema is already showing that it's not exempt from that tendency.
I feel it's more accurate to say that if you go point by point through the tenets of any given religion and Thelema, there will be points of compatibility AND incompatibility. Crowley's articulation of Thelema drew heavily from his experience and regard for many other religions, as much as the shortcomings as he saw them. The points of incompatibility are very specific and instructive, and the points of compatibility are even more important, as they show the hidden doors. The old question again: Why did Crowley choose to modify "The Cloud Upon the Sanctuary" for "An Account of A.'.A.'.", as part of the design for a vehicle to carry the new Word in the world?
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@Avshalom Binyamin said
"But why should one do ones true will well?"
Oh, sorry, that was a typo on my par. I meant, "One might as well do it well rather than poorly,"
There's no "ought" or "should" at all.
"True Will" is just a term for what a person is naturally inclined to do. A person is always doing this Will, but it's getting obstructed by "restrictions" that the mind throws up. Practicing Thelema is a process of identifying and ameliorating the influence of these restrictions, to allow the True Will to express itself more freely and unfettered, greatly reducing inner resistance and discomfort.
Nothing's going to force anybody to practice Thelema or discover the True Will. If you want to reduce inner tension and discomfort, you can do it.
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@Frater 639 said
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@Los said
"Well, no. If they were Thelemites who came together to make a religion, "Thelema" clearly had to predate whatever this religion is that they formed. The religion would be, at best, a religion based around the Law of Thelema. See the OTO as an example: Thelema existed long before Crowley wrote the OTO rituals that comprise their "religious practices," so clearly Thelema cannot be identifiable with those rituals or the religious "teachings" (such as they are) within OTO. Thelema might be expressed through those rituals and teachings, but Thelema cannot be identified with them.
"I have no idea what this means. Thelema cannot be identified with people that are following their True Will, regardless of the expression? So weird."
No, you're misreading me. Here is what you said originally: "Going further, a collection of Thelemites can have core beliefs that they agree on, all according to their True Will, which may create a religious system around these beliefs. Which, in fact, they have -- it is called Thelema."
So, here's a paraphrase of what you just said: "there are some guys who are Thelemites (and in order for them to be Thelemites, there obviously has to be something called "Thelema" for them to be adhering to in some way). They decide that it's their True Will to band together and create a religious system. So they do. That religious system is Thelema!"
There's a logical problem there: if they create Thelema, then Thelema couldn't have been around before that for them to adhere to (and hence they could not be identified as "Thelemites").
If Thelemites create X, then X can't be Thelema itself (otherwise, there couldn't have been Thelemites to make X in the first place).
At best, X could be "something based on Thelema" or "something communicates the basic ideas of Thelema," but it can't actually be Thelema itself.
Far from being "so weird," my response illustrates a basic error in thought that you were making.
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@Los said
"True Will doesn't dictate opinions or thoughts or beliefs: True Will is action."Opinions and thoughts and beliefs are actions."
You can choose to call them actions, sure, but the concept "True Will" just isn't about the kinds of things we call opinions and thoughts and beliefs. More often than not, opinions, thoughts, and beliefs are the "restrictions" that the mind throws up to obstruct the True Will.
As an elementary example, a person might have the "belief" that he's a great artist, but have that belief contradicted by the evidence time and again. If he paid attention to the evidence (i.e. observed his own being, rather than paying attention to his mind's ideas about himself), he may actually discover he's better suited to juggle numbers, even though the idea of a career in some field like that doesn't fit the romanticized self image of himself that he prefers.
"You still have yet to answer any of the questions regarding how Thelema is beneficial to you."
I already explained the benefits of discovering the True Will. What, are you asking me for personal stories about the specific benefits I've received from discovering my True Will? I'm not inclined to share, especially since this isn't Los Story Hour.
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@Sr_MNA said
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@Los said
" I freely concede that a person could call themselves a Christian Thelemite or a Buddhist Thelemite, and I further concede that a person could redefine those words in ways that make them compatible, but the truth is that those things are incompatible."But "those words" can only apply to the labels as you define them, which means that any incompatibility is in your viewpoint, not necessarily anyone else's. For that matter, if you go through any modern denomination of a religion and the source texts/teachings it is based on, there will be incompatibilities....that's the nature of the game. Thelema is already showing that it's not exempt from that tendency."
Well, sure. But I was using the words as they are commonly defined. By their standard definitions, "Christianity" and "Thelema" are nearly opposites. Of course someone could play some not-that-clever re-definition games to make them "compatible," and thus declare, "I'm a Christian Thelemite!" but what in the world would be the point? To utterly confuse everybody by using accepted terms in radically different ways just because?
I don't see anything to be gained from calling oneself a "Christian, Buddhist, Thelemic Hindu," or whatever....
"I feel it's more accurate to say that if you go point by point through the tenets of any given religion and Thelema, there will be points of compatibility AND incompatibility. Crowley's articulation of Thelema drew heavily from his experience and regard for many other religions, as much as the shortcomings as he saw them."
Yes, indeed. But Thelema is distinct from all other religious systems (if it were not, we could not define it and distinguish it).
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It sounds like a restriction of the mind, with the effect of limiting the expression of true will, to insist that one can't simultaneously explore the compatible aspects between Thelema and other belief systems.
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@Avshalom Binyamin said
"It sounds like a restriction of the mind, with the effect of limiting the expression of true will, to insist that one can't simultaneously explore the compatible aspects between Thelema and other belief systems."
And when did I say such a thing?
I think if you examine what I actually wrote, you'll see that my point was that these systems are logically incompatible (such that one cannot simultaneously be a Christian and Thelemite, for example), but there are indeed points of similarity that might be interesting to study, for a variety of reasons.
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Sorry, allow me to rephrase:
It sounds like a restriction of the mind, with the effect of limiting the expression of true will, to insist that one can't simultaneously be a Hindu and a Thelemite; or a Christian and a Thelemite.
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@Avshalom Binyamin said
"Sorry, allow me to rephrase:
It sounds like a restriction of the mind, with the effect of limiting the expression of true will, to insist that one can't simultaneously be a Hindu and a Thelemite; or a Christian and a Thelemite."
This seems especially evident to me if we move into Los' p.o.v. that there is nothing inherently religious about Thelema. In that case, the whole field of "one's religious life" is per se untouched, and is outside the definition of Thelema.
Of course, being a Hindu or Christian or whatever could, for a particular person, carry other "luggage" (I don't mean that in a pejorative way, so I didn't use "baggage"; I just mean "bundled up stuff that you choose to carry around and keep close to you"). Some of that "luggage" could turn out to be at odds with Thelema in some fashion. But, then, the same is true of being a butcher, a baker, or a candlestick maker (or, for that matter, anything else).
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@Jim Eshelman said
" Los' p.o.v. that there is nothing inherently religious about Thelema. In that case, the whole field of "one's religious life" is per se untouched, and is outside the definition of Thelema."
That's a good point. Thelema, in and of itself, isn't inherently theistic or atheistic, for example. It's inherently skeptical, though, and I would argue that Thelema is best practiced in the context of beliefs that can withstand skeptical scrutiny.
So that means -- given the fact that there is insufficient evidence to support the notion that any gods exist and given that, therefore, the proper skeptical position is not to accept the claim that any gods exist -- I would argue that Thelema is best practiced in the context of atheism. However, if tomorrow humanity became aware of sufficient evidence for the existence of gods, then in that case, the proper skeptical position would be to accept the claim that gods exist. In that particular situation, Thelema would then be best practiced in the context of theism.
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@Los said
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@Jim Eshelman said
" Los' p.o.v. that there is nothing inherently religious about Thelema. In that case, the whole field of "one's religious life" is per se untouched, and is outside the definition of Thelema."That's a good point. Thelema, in and of itself, isn't inherently theistic or atheistic, for example. It's inherently skeptical, though, and I would argue that Thelema is best practiced in the context of beliefs that can withstand skeptical scrutiny.
So that means -- given the fact that there is insufficient evidence to support the notion that any gods exist and given that, therefore, the proper skeptical position is not to accept the claim that any gods exist -- I would argue that Thelema is best practiced in the context of atheism. However, if tomorrow humanity became aware of sufficient evidence for the existence of gods, then in that case, the proper skeptical position would be to accept the claim that gods exist. In that particular situation, Thelema would then be best practiced in the context of theism."
Considering all that (Hard Absolutism), what if the "belief in something" supports results (regardless of the absolute reality of these things believed in)?