"Kill/Fill" - not "Kill Bill"
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@Bereshith said
" Now, back to the scholar's persona for as long as I can restrain this other."
LOL...the story of my life!
@belmurr said
"That is, the Secret Chiefs, the hidden heads of the Order, brought this volume to the visible head providentially."
But in all seriousness, Belmurru's point is an excellent one, and for that reason, it may be that the debate generated here and now by the "event" is exactly what Thelema needs. Certainly in my life, it's been a positive thing, and served to draw my interest back into an area I'd mostly abandoned and show me some new opportunities for growth, as well as some great new work that I'd been missing out on. This is my favorite of the Thelemic forums, and the exchanges this round have been particularly inspiring.
Hence, though there are assumptions here that I feel honor bound to call out, as both a scholar and practitioner, I do respect all involved. People can publish whatever they will, however they will, and face whatever consequences that entails. If it's useful to my work in either arena, I'll buy it; if not, I won't. Simple as that. The way that this all works out is one of the core reasons I hold the Law so dear.
LLLL,
M -
Re my previous Osirian argument: I admit I'm learning some things as we go. To me, who has had to forsake much of my spiritual past, some of the new has tasted bitterly, artificially "different" while in truth being the same. "Unless a seed falls to the ground and dies..." But I understand the new also brings a further progression that breaks the old wineskins of form of the eternal truth of transformation.
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@Alrah said
" we don't have a window into the mind and consciousness of Aleister Crowley
[...]
I do not think that you can truly separate out the work of Aleister Crowley from the work of Aiwass and I think it is foolishness to try."
Well, in this one particular case, we can separate them out because Crowley tells us as much:
@Equinox of the Gods, Chapter 7 said
"It is to be noted that the translations from the Stele in verses 37-38 were no more than instantaneous thoughts to be inserted afterwards.
Verse 38 begins with my address to the God in the first sentence, while in the second is his reply to me. He then refers to the hieroglyphs of the Stele, and bids me quote my paraphrases. This order was given by a species of wordless gesture, not visible or audible, but sensible in some occult manner."
So Crowley explicitly says that in this particular instance of the writing, Aiwass didn't "dictate" anything but commanded him "wordless[ly]" to "quote [his] paraphrase" of the Stele.
I take this to mean that Aiwass' intention was for Crowley to insert into that part of the Book those sections of the paraphrase, as they appeared in the vellum notebook (which he had just recently written).
The paraphrases were composed by Aleister Crowley, before the reception of the Book. They aren't the "words of Aiwass" in the slightest.
So the debate is over whether Crowley forgot how the poem ended and made a mistake when he (at some later time) jotted down the brief note to the typist.
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Re: Secret Chiefs
Breeze's note regarding the Secret Chiefs is dealing with something that Crowley himself should have dealt with more in-depth, in my opinion. That is:
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The imagined existence of a bunch of Chieftains presiding over humanity making sure humanity is "on-track".
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The Work necessary to even get a statement like 1 (above) to make any sense without imagining fairies or gremlins.
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Crowley's insistence that the degrees of the O.T.O. do not offer such exalted states.
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Breeze's connection with the Thelemic group that potentially does offer such exalted states.
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Breeze's own ability to achieve such exalted states.
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The integrity of the group mentioned in 4 (above), and likewise their ability to offer such exalted states.
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The fact that just as changing The Book of the Law has become taboo, talking openly of points 3, 4 and 6 especially bring a form of "bad juju" with them.
8 ) The question of how appropriate any of this is on this particular site.
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Re individual freedom: The order and its rules and their consistent application by all those who maintain the original spirit of the order's rules serve to maintain the consistency of the collective human spiritual dream that is the New Aeon. Take away from the historic authoritative determinations of its founding prophet, and you bring disorder to that collective dream. You throw out the compass that is the final authority of the founding prophet.
But, yes, in any case, individuals are free to act under Will, as always.
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@Los said
"
@Alrah said
" we don't have a window into the mind and consciousness of Aleister Crowley[...]
I do not think that you can truly separate out the work of Aleister Crowley from the work of Aiwass and I think it is foolishness to try."
Well, in this one particular case, we can separate them out because Crowley tells us as much:
@Equinox of the Gods, Chapter 7 said
"It is to be noted that the translations from the Stele in verses 37-38 were no more than instantaneous thoughts to be inserted afterwards.
Verse 38 begins with my address to the God in the first sentence, while in the second is his reply to me. He then refers to the hieroglyphs of the Stele, and bids me quote my paraphrases. This order was given by a species of wordless gesture, not visible or audible, but sensible in some occult manner."
So Crowley explicitly says that in this particular instance of the writing, Aiwass didn't "dictate" anything but commanded him "wordless[ly]" to "quote [his] paraphrase" of the Stele.
I take this to mean that Aiwass' intention was for Crowley to insert into that part of the Book those sections of the paraphrase, as they appeared in the vellum notebook (which he had just recently written).
The paraphrases were composed by Aleister Crowley, before the reception of the Book. They aren't the "words of Aiwass" in the slightest.
So the debate is over whether Crowley forgot how the poem ended and made a mistake when he (at some later time) jotted down the brief note to the typist."
Los, do you find it logical that, given the angle you are approaching this (as states above), that had Crowley wanted to change "fill" to "kill" in the MS then he would have, especially considering the markings were done in pencil?
Also, do you find it logical that, since he did not change the Book from "fill" to "kill" in any publication, that he was perfectly okay with accepting "fill" as a part of both Liber XXXI and Liber CCXX?
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@Azidonis said
"I think it's logical, Los, to acknowledge that had Crowley felt he made a mistake in the manuscript when writing "Fill", he did not show this in his actions."
Yes, I'm in agreement with this. I haven't seen any evidence that would compel me to think that Crowley's intention was for "fill" to be replaced by "kill" in subsequent publications of the Book.
But I just wanted to be clear about the argument: we're arguing over which of Crowley's own words, written for his own personal poetry, should appear in the Book of the Law (since Aiwass apparently instructed Crowley to insert his own poetry into the Book at that point).
In the grand scheme of things, certainly not a hugely significant argument and nothing over which to get one's panties in a bunch, as the kids say.
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@Bereshith said
"Re individual freedom: The order and its rules and their consistent application by all those who maintain the original spirit of the order's rules serve to maintain the consistency of the collective human spiritual dream that is the New Aeon. Take away from the historic authoritative determinations of its founding prophet, and you bring disorder to that collective dream. You throw out the compass that is the final authority of the founding prophet.
But, yes, in any case, individuals are free to act under Will, as always."
I agree with you.
As this goes along though, it seems less of a matter of "Do what thou wilt", and more of a matter of "As brothers fight ye". I could be wrong, though.
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@Los said
"In the grand scheme of things, certainly not a hugely significant argument and nothing over which to get one's panties in a bunch, as the kids say."
EXACTLY.
The Universe is the Practical Joke of the General at the Expense of the Particular, quoth FRATER PERDURABO, and laughed.
Well, it certainly has the "the kids" talking. HB has a Genius.
Reminds one of certain obfuscatory measures in the media when something important is going on?
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"They [the members of the Order S. S.] are all, however, bound by the original and fundamental Oath of the Order, to devote their energy to assisting the Progress of their Inferiors in the Order.
"These "kids"?
The Abyss lies ahead for all bound to the order.
What has been duly spoken in Time, duly approved in Time, and duly sealed into Time, on these things you may certainly rely.
With how many refined scholarly uncertainties and questions of prophetic authority would you like to begin your journey? With how many such uncertainties would you like others to begin their journey?
Submission to that which has been duly given has its advantages.
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@Bereshith said
"
"They [the members of the Order S. S.] are all, however, bound by the original and fundamental Oath of the Order, to devote their energy to assisting the Progress of their Inferiors in the Order.
"These "kids"?
The Abyss lies ahead for all bound to the order.
What has been duly spoken in Time, duly approved in Time, and duly sealed into Time, on these things you may certainly rely.
With how many refined scholarly uncertainties and questions of prophetic authority would you like to begin your journey? With how many such uncertainties would you like others to begin their journey?
Submission to that which has been duly given has its advantages."
It is Friday. "Time" for a drink.
I'm glad you mentioned submission...I have a date with an 18 year-old tonight.
I'm agreeing with not getting the panties in a bunch.
I'm saying throw the panties on the floor and have fun.
The questions above are answered differently depending on the mood.O my God, but the love in Me bursts over the bonds of Space and Time; my love is spilt among them that love not love.
My wine is poured out for them that never tasted wine.
The fumes thereof shall intoxicate them and the vigour of my love shall breed mighty children from their maidens.
Yea! without draught, without embrace:—and the Voice answered Yea! these things shall be.
Then I sought a Word for Myself; nay, for myself.
And the Word came: O Thou! it is well. Heed naught! I love Thee! I love Thee!
Therefore had I faith unto the end of all; yea, unto the end of all.HAPPY VENUS DAY!
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I wish I had a date with an 18 year old!
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Happy Venus Day to you as well. Having a couple to celebrate myself.
But just to make sure you don't lack for an appropriate rejoinder...
That sure is a pretty quote. Who said it? I hope they knew what they were talking about... You know?
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@Bereshith said
"That sure is a pretty quote. Who said it? I hope they knew what they were talking about... You know?"
Uh, that would be from Liber VII
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My point, Takamba, was that he was referrencing another Class A document to reinforce his own point about not getting one's panties in a bunch about someone altering a Class A document.
Perhaps the irony was a little too subtle.
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@Bereshith said
"My point, Takamba, was that he was referrencing another Class A document to reinforce his own point about not getting one's panties in a bunch about someone altering a Class A document.
Perhaps the irony was a little too subtle.
"
I got it. Talking of irony... Jesus signed the petition today.
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"
I got it. Talking of irony... Jesus signed the petition today.
"See? I've always said he was a good guy, just misunderstood by the YOLOs, that's all.
That's what happens when you don't write anything down yourself. Ehhh... Maybe he knew they'd just change it to "what he should have written but didn't" anyway. I guess he just let them go ahead and do that in the first place.
Crowley tried to fix that problem, but...
Here we are... "what the prophet should have written." -
@Bereshith said
"My point, Takamba, was that he was referrencing another Class A document to reinforce his own point about not getting one's panties in a bunch about someone altering a Class A document.
Perhaps the irony was a little too subtle."
Haha! No...not too subtle. But I wasn't pulling that quote to make my point about "altering a Class A document." I was replying to this statement here:
@Bereshith said
"The Abyss lies ahead for all bound to the order.
What has been duly spoken in Time, duly approved in Time, and duly sealed into Time, on these things you may certainly rely.
With how many refined scholarly uncertainties and questions of prophetic authority would you like to begin your journey? With how many such uncertainties would you like others to begin their journey?
Submission to that which has been duly given has its advantages."
It just sounded a little ostentatious? We share many views, but this particular point presupposed precise pulpit pontifications. Can't one be a YOLO and a Serious Suzy stomping in the same set of sandals? Just look at the tone, bro...
My point was: no one is bound by anything but their own lack of love -- this includes being free the "fetters" of someone altering a Class A document in their particular sect. As you know, the quote I pulled was from the chapter that corresponds to Venus.
If anyone would like to get passionate about HB's decision, that's great. The world needs activists. But sometimes all the world gets is re-activists.
I just think there are people that get reactionary...and there are others who can look into the purpose of the sensationalism, without getting all antsy-in-their-pantsy.
Either way, Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Have a good day, brother.
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@Frater 639 said
"
Well, it certainly has the "the kids" talking. HB has a Genius.
"@Frater 639 said
"It just sounded a little ostentatious? . . . this particular point presupposed precise pulpit pontifications. . . . Just look at the tone, bro..."
I'm not interested in such projection games.
I stand by what I said.
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It's hard to put my finger on where in the conversation this happened but... this thread is way past the point of addressing the original post on the thread. Furthermore, it has gotten contention\us and off-track. It's no longer the prudent, careful addressing of the matter that the OP started.
I'm not sure how much of this I'm going to go back and wipe out (it's a big time consumer and PITA to do that) but please IMMEDIATELY stop the personal back and forth and jibber jabber. If you don't have something substantial and concrete to say that is directly relevant to the topic AS PRESENT IN THE ORIGINAL POST ON THIS SPECIFIC THREAD, then start another thread or don't post.