Conflicting or Competing Initiations
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@Jim Eshelman said
"So, for example, the T.'.O.'.T.'. 6º and A.'.A.'. 6=5 Grade are both Geburan degrees/grades. However, A.'.A.'. 6=5 is at the level of Geburah in Briah, whereas T.'.O.'.T.'. 6º is Geburah in Yetzirah (which, frankly, is a lot more challenging! - Geburah is far easier to navigate after the Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel)."
Geburah of Yetzirah is far more challenging than Geburah of Briah?
By saying that Geburah is easier to deal with after KC of the HGA, do you intend to relate the K and C to one of the four worlds?
I haven't yet had that experience, so I can only speak theoretically, but I always saw the K and C as outside of the system in some ways. The GD never incorporated it into the curriculum or initiatory process in any way, though many GD folk certainly work with this. Of course, the AA included it as central. But anyway, I have trouble figuring out how the K and C could fit into the 4 worlds.
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@sasha said
"Geburah of Yetzirah is far more challenging than Geburah of Briah?"
Yes. Mars in an emotional-reactive-personality context is much harder to deal with than Mars in Briatic consciousness.
"By saying that Geburah is easier to deal with after KC of the HGA, do you intend to relate the K and C to one of the four worlds?"
Close, yes. Briatic consciousness doesn't, per se, include K&C, but is an immediate prerequisite. One might say (to switch to a symbolic form, since I just saw Parsifal at the LA Opera tonight) that the K&C is the interpenetration of the lance into the grail formed by Briatic consciousness.
"I haven't yet had that experience, so I can only speak theoretically, but I always saw the K and C as outside of the system in some ways."
I wouldn't agree with that at all. It is the entirety of the system. (In case it's not clear, I'm only speaking of A.'.A.'. here.)
"The GD never incorporated it into the curriculum or initiatory process in any way, though many GD folk certainly work with this."
During the existence of the Golden Dawn (which ended in 1900), no member ever attained to the K&C of the HGA, so far as any existing records show - unless it was Florence Farr. The grade levels people were actually working were usually no higher than A.'.A.'. 1=10 equivalent, somewhat overlapping with 2=9.
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law,
@Jim Eshelman said
"Yes. Mars in an emotional-reactive-personality context is much harder to deal with than Mars in Briatic consciousness."
It's interesting to hear it put in that particular way, having mixed systems for years. 'The fourth way' started by George Gurdjieff concentrates a great deal on working Geburah before the K & C. The work, however, is so intense that it is designed to acomplish waking up the HGA.
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Well, I didn't say it wasn't valuable! Just that it's hard.
In the A.'.A.'. scale of things, note that the Path of Peh is kind of the same thing - the Mars ray worked in the field of Yetzirah (below Tiphereth). Your description sounds a great deal like that, in fact.
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@Redd Fezz said
"...but aren't formal inititiations just sort of a "formality," anyway?"
In my experience, a definite No (except, of course, by semantics <g>).
First, as a rule 'formal' initiations pretty much always trigger an energized shift within which is reflected by often dramatic rearrangement of external circumstances.
Second, the passing into the Initiation stage (in contrast to, say, the Fellowship stage) marks a distinctive spiritual maturation level - a line drawn in the astral sands, so to speak, as distinctive as (say) puberty.
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@Redd Fezz said
"I haven't taken any formal initiations, but aren't formal inititiations just sort of a "formality," anyway?"
Remember that formal initiations, by which I assume you mean physical ritual initiations and probably in a group context, involve magic. The groups does a magical ritual. They don't just dress up for fun to simply induct you into a group. If the ritual only produces a formality, then they didn't do very good magic. Simillarly, any self-initiation ritual involves magic. And like all other magic, it should produce results. And, in my experience, very powerful results. Don't accept initiation lightly. Be prepared to get down to work and to have your life blown open.
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Jim posted some excellent clarifications of the relationships and comparisons between the AA and the ToT. However, I would like some more specific (and much simpler) clarifications that I know some of you can answer.
Based on what I have read at the College of Thelema site, I see the relationship between CoT, ToT, and this particular AA lineage as the following:
College of Thelema: Provides 4 60 hour-courses in psychology, Thelemic philosophy, Qabalah, astrology, and magic. These can fulfill the Student period of the AA, if accepted. But it does not involve group ritual work or a long-term magical curriculum.
Temple of Thelema: Provides a graded initiatory system similar to the GD. This can either fulfill the Student period of the AA or stand on its own.
AA: One can apply to the AA after either completion of either the CoT curriculum or a certain amount of grade work in the ToT. Additionally, one can apply straight to the AA without participation in either the CoT courses or the ToT.
Did I get all of that straight?
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Sasha, I don't see anything there with which I disagree.
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93
this is to redd fezz, you stated you thought the gods may not initate a person if they go through the initation but are not really ready to have been initated.
i know this is not the case, and when i say know i mean i have seen cases of people who probably should have waited to take certain initatory degrees go ahead and take it, and then there lifes more or less fall apart.
the gods as lovely as they are in a way do not care. i mean when you take a initation you are asking the gods to start the ordeals, and if you are not really ready, well everybody loves a good laugh, even the gods (epeccially pan!). this is something you are asking for!
also i personally believe the initations are perfect, and they always work. i think it would be proper to see the initation as like a cooking recipe. if you take noodles and tomato sauce and cheeze and meat and prepare them in a certain way, and cook them for a certain amount of time you will get spegetti, that will give you energy to perform the great work. but lets say the meat is old and hasnt properly took care of, say it has been sat outside for weeks in 90degree weather. if you use this meat to make spegetti do you think you will be able to eat that to help you perform the great work? you will probably end up in the hospital.
you are the meat in the initation, and if you are not properly prepared you will not get what you are wanting out of the initation. even so you will probably still move on with your life, its just the ordeals maybe a little more complicated.
93s
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PS. this is speaking of the OTO, i would guess other initations also , but i have only been through OTO initations so i can only speak on them.
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@jmiller said
"...the possibilities of conflicts emerging when simultaneously undertaking two different initiatory regimes. ...Could this screw up or complicate the processes involved in either or both?"
truly Thelemic initiations will never conflict with your True Will and therefore if you are sufficiently familiar with that you will never have such a conflict due to the initiation.that said, some cults or organizations will ask you to tie up your will and restrict it as part of their disciplines (and particularly if they are not Thelemic of character). as such this may easily lead to conflicts amongst them. for this reason i have avoided those which i could ascertain weren't Thelemic, might attempt to enslave me or tie up my will to their purpose.
@jmiller said
"Has anyone done this or witnessed it? If so, do you recommend holding off on the one until completing the other?"
I have witnessed attempts both within groups of my involvement and outside in wider esoteric realms which sought (possibly without understanding it), to circumscribe the true will of their initiates.whether for purposes of secrecy or security, it became obvious that the manner by which the initiation was put together, how well some portions (e.g. the oaths) were administered or pre-arranged, they served to pressure, extort, or attempt to enslave the participant. this was at times even an aspect of ostensibly "Thelemic" organizations or orders - their members were insufficiently familiar with the Law of Thelema despite at points being proud of their emblematic badge-flashing. those involved had no knowledge of how to go about preserving the freedom of themselves or their kindred, both ill-preparing and potentially greatly harming the future course of their career and integrity of their fellowship.
now whether waiting would have resolved the matter, would have been helpful, in fact, due to the sometimes life-long commitments involved, is a subject of some complexity. some of these bonds were ostensibly unbreakable, would establish long-term contention and later lead to social breakage and disloyalty, twisted volition; a kind of magical car wreck.
instead i would evaluate what KIND of initiatic frameworks you're talking about, why you want any set of them which may possibly collide, and see how compatible they truly are. try to spot where they may be compatible by looking for those who are like you, have similar aptitudes and interests to your own who have mastered both or are successfully involved with both simultaneously (finding few to none would recommend against the combination). troubleshoot it ahead and avoid possibly unexpected ordeals.