"Kill/Fill" - not "Kill Bill"

Jason R

"
@Jim Eshelman said
"OK, everyone... the attacks are getting personal. Roll it back, please."

I'm a woman so when they engage in their act's of culturally conditioned sexism and try and say I'm wrong for objecting... then don't you blame me for getting rightly annoyed with their sh1t Jim. When they stink - I'll call them on it, for their own good as well as mine. 93!"

So let me get this straight. Your SO intelligent, that you believe it's logical to assume that if anyone happens to disagree with you they are picking on you because your a female? Great logic there at work. You sure do make me feel inferior.

Jim, this type of crap is very inappropriate and hostile. I for one do not feel comfortable coming here and simply giving my opinion, and being called sexist. That isn't right.

Alrah

@Jason R said

"
@Alrah said
"
@Jason R said
"
I'm not going to just sit here an allow you to call me sexist simply because I disagreed with you. What real reason do you have to make such a suggestion??

This is unbelievable.

My reasons were simple for suggesting your ideas were a stretch, NONE of which had anything to do with your gender. Your projecting here, and obviously have issues."

You have issues when I say your sh1t stinks. {••••} off Jason, and don't come back. You don't have the intelligence nor the scholarship to critic my work so let's not pretend you were doing anything else that choosing a female to criticize to shore up your weak opinion of yourself. It's transparent and boring. Infact - I bet you haven't even had the balls to sign the petition yet, have you?"

Wow you SERIOUSLY have issues Alrah. Honestly. In fact I was one of the first to sign.

Is this the words of an enlightened person? Is this the argument and actions of a scholar? I may not be a scholar but I know BS when I see it, and someone with issues. Your insistence on this sexism issue for absolutely NO reason is evidence of your own issue with it, not mine.

Show me where I have ever argued or "singled out" a female on here. Your crazy.

Jim, is this appropriate for her to suggest here that I am being sexist??? I don't think this is fair for her to be allowed to accuse me of this. I see no reason for this sort of attack at all."

Don't you dare start bleating to Jim about your fvcking rights after you blithely walk over mine and dismiss my work without an explanation. Just because you have a fvcking dick does not make you a higher status individual who ought to be respected more than me.

I solved II, 76, and revealed about half of the cryptography of Liber Al to the world while you are stick d1cking around with number games and English Qabalah illusions. You haven't earned the right by your scholarship to take the attitude to my work - completely dismissive of one section of it without even crediting the very real discoveries I have made over the months while cracking Liber AL or the recent work. All you wanted was to vampirically take a piece. Well fvck you!

You should shut your mouth already.

Alrah

@Jason R said

"
"If you remove the 154 verse numbers as words, and count the circle squared character as a word there are 5867 words in Liber AL. If we add the 13 words from the pencil notation (doesn't that begin with ink?) at III,37 "I am the Lord of Thebes from Vellum book Unity to fill me" = 5880 words."

I need only bring up ONE idea here that is a STRETCH.

"Count the circle squared as a word"

Ok. So what scholarly intelligent, perfectly clear reason do you have to do this? What reason do you have to totally ignore the line drawn on the same page that is ALSO a "key"? If your going to start counting drawn characters as words, why not the line? That ALONE is a stretch! Not to mention your counting only certain verse numbers etc. It all makes zero sense. If this is the big bad intelligence of a scholar then I'm disappointed."

Yeah - well a MAN did that over on Lashtal and everyone played kittens so I suggest you join them.

Takamba

@Jim Eshelman said

"I'm going to presume the last set of posts were made without noticing my prior post. So, before issuing warnings to individuals, I'm going to repost this:

OK, everyone... the attacks are getting personal. Roll it back, please.

Thank you."

You are being incredibly kind to Alrah as she clearly quoted your warning.

Jason R

"Don't you dare start bleating to Jim about your {•••••••} rights after you blithely walk over mine and dismiss my work without an explanation. Just because you have a {•••••••} dick does not make you a higher status individual who ought to be respected more than me.

I solved II, 76, and revealed about half of the cryptography of Liber Al to the world while you are stick d1cking around with number games and English Qabalah illusions. You haven't earned the right by your scholarship to take the attitude to my work - completely dismissive of one section of it without even crediting the very real discoveries I have made over the months while cracking Liber AL or the recent work. All you wanted was to vampirically take a piece. Well {••••} you!

You should shut your mouth already."

HA!

Is the above some higher form of scholarly humor that somehow is over my head? I don't get it.

I don't need any "scholarship" to see how weak your ideas are. My point was that I CAN take, and only need to take, ONE of your ideas out of the whole thing to prove my point. It's a stretch!

JUST that one point is enough to justify calling it convoluted!

Alrah

@Takamba said

"
@Jim Eshelman said
"I'm going to presume the last set of posts were made without noticing my prior post. So, before issuing warnings to individuals, I'm going to repost this:

OK, everyone... the attacks are getting personal. Roll it back, please.

Thank you."

You are being incredibly kind to Alrah as she clearly quoted your warning."

And you think he doesn't see you now with that comment?

Alrah

@Jason R said

"
"Don't you dare start bleating to Jim about your {•••••••} rights after you blithely walk over mine and dismiss my work without an explanation. Just because you have a {•••••••} dick does not make you a higher status individual who ought to be respected more than me.

I solved II, 76, and revealed about half of the cryptography of Liber Al to the world while you are stick d1cking around with number games and English Qabalah illusions. You haven't earned the right by your scholarship to take the attitude to my work - completely dismissive of one section of it without even crediting the very real discoveries I have made over the months while cracking Liber AL or the recent work. All you wanted was to vampirically take a piece. Well {••••} you!

You should shut your mouth already."

HA!

Is the above some higher form of scholarly humor that somehow is over my head? I don't get it.

I don't need any "scholarship" to see how weak your ideas are. My point was that I CAN take, and only need to take, ONE of your ideas out of the whole thing to prove my point. It's a stretch!

JUST that one point is enough to justify calling it convoluted!"

And your argument to justify your opinion is?

Show me where you have made a comparison? (I suggested the guys on Lashtal at the moment since we're working the same work here, but you didn't see to have the balls for that... did you?)

Offered evidence?

No - you just relied on the fact you have respect from others more than I do because of that sausage between your legs.

Weak.... very weak of you.

Jason R

"And your argument to justify your opinion is?

Show me where you have made a comparison? (I suggested the guys on Lashtal at the moment since we're working the same work here, but you didn't see to have the balls for that... did you?)

Offered evidence?

No - you just relied on the fact you have respect from others more than I do because of that sausage between your legs.

Weak.... very weak of you."

Please.

Guess what, we are not ON Lashtal are we? We are HERE, and you brought up YOUR idea HERE. I gave you my opinion HERE. I thought this was YOUR idea, or are you now suggesting it is someone else's? What, do you need them to argue for you or something? Can't you argue your theory?

I have GREAT respect for others, and have always shown respect, unless someone has disrespected me first. So get your facts straight! Your the one obsessed with sausages.

The ONLY thing weak is you counting verse numbers as words, and circles drawn on a page as a word. Period. Dumb idea, without any sort of evidence to back it up. Can you quote ANY verse that would suggest counting the circle squared character as a word? How about ignoring then the line drawn character? THAT alone shows how weak an idea it is.

Alrah

@Jason R said

"
"And your argument to justify your opinion is?

Show me where you have made a comparison? (I suggested the guys on Lashtal at the moment since we're working the same work here, but you didn't see to have the balls for that... did you?)

Offered evidence?

No - you just relied on the fact you have respect from others more than I do because of that sausage between your legs.

Weak.... very weak of you."

Please.

Guess what, we are not ON Lashtal are we? We are HERE, and you brought up YOUR idea HERE. I gave you my opinion HERE. I thought this was YOUR idea, or are you now suggesting it is someone else's? What, do you need them to argue for you or something? Can't you argue your theory?

I have GREAT respect for others, and have always shown respect, unless someone has disrespected me first. So get your facts straight! Your the one obsessed with sausages.

The ONLY thing weak is you counting verse numbers as words, and circles drawn on a page as a word. Period. Dumb idea, without any sort of evidence to back it up. Can you quote ANY verse that would suggest counting the circle squared character as a word? How about ignoring then the line drawn character? THAT alone shows how weak an idea it is."

Since what I did is* extract* the verse numbers as words and since the circle squared by Crowley is symbolic of a 'word', then it just shows how lacking in scholarship your comments and critic really are.

John Griffiths also includes the circled squared in his calculations so you are calling him 'dumb' as well. ***slow cap for a slow individual ***

Jim Eshelman

@Takamba said

"
@Jim Eshelman said
"I'm going to presume the last set of posts were made without noticing my prior post. So, before issuing warnings to individuals, I'm going to repost this:

OK, everyone... the attacks are getting personal. Roll it back, please.

Thank you."

You are being incredibly kind to Alrah as she clearly quoted your warning."

They both did. Warnings formally issued. (And a Jason post completely deleted that had nothing to do with the topic of this thread.)

C'mon, guys, just because you know I'm leaving town for two days to hit about 10 wineries, please don't break the furniture.

Jason R

@Jim Eshelman said

"
@Takamba said
"
@Jim Eshelman said
"I'm going to presume the last set of posts were made without noticing my prior post. So, before issuing warnings to individuals, I'm going to repost this:

OK, everyone... the attacks are getting personal. Roll it back, please.

Thank you."

You are being incredibly kind to Alrah as she clearly quoted your warning."

They both did. Warnings formally issued. (And a Jason post completely deleted that had nothing to do with the topic of this thread.)

C'mon, guys, just because you know I'm leaving town for two days to hit about 10 wineries, please don't break the furniture."

With all due respect Jim, what do you mean by you guys?

I simply said her idea was convoluted. She went off on me with PERSONAL attacks and calling me sexist! I'm sorry but that needs to be addressed, because obviously she is under the impression you some how agree, and that it is ok.

I defended myself. So I don't think I am doing anything but making sure my points are recorded, and it is perfectly clear I in no way being sexist. I think it fair to point out that she is making unfair accusations.

Jason R

Really Jim?

Alrah

@Jim Eshelman said

"
@Takamba said
"
@Jim Eshelman said
"I'm going to presume the last set of posts were made without noticing my prior post. So, before issuing warnings to individuals, I'm going to repost this:

OK, everyone... the attacks are getting personal. Roll it back, please.

Thank you."

You are being incredibly kind to Alrah as she clearly quoted your warning."

They both did. Warnings formally issued. (And a Jason post completely deleted that had nothing to do with the topic of this thread.)

C'mon, guys, just because you know I'm leaving town for two days to hit about 10 wineries, please don't break the furniture."

I didn't know that Jim. Have fun! I've bigger fish to fry that that '.....' trying to win status - so I'll make myself scare till you get back. Try and make time to have a glass with Heidrick...

p.s. - one of the reasons that mods ban and censor more women on the internet than they do men is that men are used to a higher status and get offended and object more. As we see. Ha! Ra!La!

Jim Eshelman

@Jason R said

"With all due respect Jim, what do you mean by you guys? "

You and Alrah have dropped into personal attacks.

I don't care who started it, who is trying to defend themselves, or who insists on getting the last word. None of the above is acceptable.

"I defended myself."

So stop it. Defending yourself by attacking back is an attack, and you can get kicked off this site for that as much as for picking a fight in the first place.

"So I don't think I am doing anything but making sure my points are recorded, and it is perfectly clear I in no way being sexist. I think it fair to point out that she is making unfair accusations."

Sure. You say, "That is an inaccurate, unfair accusation."

nigris

hail Azidonis, sorry i missed your post previously. finding it today, i immediatly respond:

@Azidonis said

"
@nigris said
"
@Alrah said
"...If we want to stop the OTO from changing the Book of the Law"
the (c)OTO will not change The Book of the Law, it will at most change its published versions."
By "published versions" you mean the new versions of The Book of the Law that will show the change, right?"
oh sure, or the ones it controls which are online.

"Which means, they plan on changing (or "editing", depending on how PC you want to be), The Book of the Law."
you could easily put it that way, but this 'moulding' of Liber CCXX has been going on for years, not just recently. the reference standard had been a conceived interpretation of Liber L, naturally. this conception seems to have shifted. in the sense of 'changing a Class A document', i doubt anyone directly involved conceives of it in that way at all.

"Unless you just see The Book of the Law as the manuscript only, with Liber CCXX not being The Book of the Law."
it seems difficult to support that, given that it's the latter with the name and the former as "Liber L. vel Legis". see book-of-the-law.com/#HOLO00 for what i am pointing to here. BTW, is this the manuscript cover page or the typescribe cover page? anyone know what hotel letter paper this is? I'm enlisting the help of a couple of scholars to suss out Crowleyan Arabic/Farsi soon.

"
@nigris said
"
"we need to reach out to as many Thelemites in as many countries as we can"
you won't be able to predict where they are located. some of them may be part of the cults, but the bulk of Thelemites will never have heard of the Beast."
This refers to "adoption", and I would have advised Crowley against ever doing it, with his list of Saints. But what do I know?"
I don't think that i really understand this. which part is the 'adoption'? reaching out? understanding the principle of Will (Thelema) to refer to something inherent to human beings of any culture?

"
@nigris said
"
"with one clear and central argument against the change. ..."
it's a top-down heirarchy (Old AEon). its incentives are only partly informed by A.'.A.'. standards (insofar as those who are affiliated to this initiatic club are actually connected to the Third Order). it isn't a democracy!! did you notice what happened when there were objections to 'reforms' made within the order previously?"
Oh, do tell! What happened "when there were objections to 'reforms' made within the order [A:.A:.] previously", and what were those objections and reforms?"
NOT the AA, the OTO.

with the reforms made by Hymenaeus Beta regarding the Bishops of the EGC, the official Gnostic Mass Cakes of Light and the Saints List (surely there were others i'm forgetting) discussion was minimal, directives were issued from the top down and expected to be followed (probably from the Head Council under the direction of the Frater Superior). there was dispersal in part due to differences of opinion on these and other matters. likely that's part of many changes of administration. Hymenaeus Alpha (Grady McMurtry) was a different type of administrator in the San Francisco Bay Area than HBeta in New York. attitudes about sex, drugs (and rock and roll?), and church all seemed to play out differently. changes to the way that initiation rituals are handled, what was part of them, etc., all elicited some irritation/criticism in my vicinity of post-Alpha wakefulness.

in his defense, such hierarchical direction was good for the order's cohesiveness as a religious group (a cult). its upper administrative quarters, coincident with the Ecclesia Gnostica Catholica, was standardized and brought more strongly into line with sustainable practices and ideological facets given the climate and context of its geographical spread.

as an aim, the promulgation of the Law of Thelema need not actually demonstrate its quality as a forefront factor, especially for a 'secret society'. what is imperative is that the idea be repeatedly put out there for the Strong to find and of which to make use.

where it pertains to the Kill/Fill controversy, if you wonder how and why it may be that a strict hierarchy is 'Thelemic' in character, you're not alone, and one may take from certain military and quasi-masonic aspects of this social structure that its intention is to advance the principles, ideas, and doctrines of Thelema so conceived. if this includes refining Class A documents to proper conformity to their ideal form (each has one, based on a set of criteria perhaps spoken and published, perhaps never mentioned to the public), this is an element of that promulgation, and few others than the torch-bearers of the prophet's Will have any business trying to manage this.

Jason R

@Jim Eshelman said

"
@Jason R said
"With all due respect Jim, what do you mean by you guys? "

You and Alrah have dropped into personal attacks.

I don't care who started it, who is trying to defend themselves, or who insists on getting the last word. None of the above is acceptable.

"I defended myself."

So stop it. Defending yourself by attacking back is an attack, and you can get kicked off this site for that as much as for picking a fight in the first place.

"So I don't think I am doing anything but making sure my points are recorded, and it is perfectly clear I in no way being sexist. I think it fair to point out that she is making unfair accusations."

Sure. You say, "That is an inaccurate, unfair accusation.""

Oh and so if I had simply stopped and ignored her first accusation you would have given her a skull or pointed out she was unfairly calling me a sexist? This is BS! I simply refuse to participate then in this forum, if I am forced to ignore someone attacking me, allowing them to say whatever they want without any ability to defend myself. That is simply unfair.

Alrah

@nigris said

"where it pertains to the Kill/Fill controversy, if you wonder how and why it may be that a strict hierarchy is 'Thelemic' in character, you're not alone, and one may take from certain military and quasi-masonic aspects of this social structure that its intention is to advance the principles, ideas, and doctrines of Thelema so conceived. if this includes refining Class A documents to proper conformity to their ideal form (each has one, based on a set of criteria perhaps spoken and published, perhaps never mentioned to the public), this is an element of that promulgation, and few others than the torch-bearers of the prophet's Will have any business trying to manage this."

That's a very interesting (and disturbing) idea nigris...

Are you saying the motta branch (springing from a strongly influenced Catholic land)... are Thelemites of the wool? ... i.e. - externally Thelemic yet internally Christian and subverting Thelema and it's Holy Texts from within?

nigris

@Azidonis said

"
@nigris said
"
"with one clear and central argument against the change. ..."
it's a top-down heirarchy (Old AEon). its incentives are only partly informed by A.'.A.'. standards (insofar as those who are affiliated to this initiatic club are actually connected to the Third Order). it isn't a democracy!! did you notice what happened when there were objections to 'reforms' made within the order previously?"
Oh, do tell! What happened "when there were objections to 'reforms' made within the order [A:.A:.] previously", and what were those objections and reforms?"
"NOT the AA, the OTO." additionally, i'd like to address this conflation and confusion somewhat. not only is there a (fairly ridiculous at this point since most of the realistic disputants have all but dropped their cases as far as i can see, but real) dispute about what one might mean by 'O.T.O.', but also a very real confusion about to what "the A.'.A.'." refers.

you'll see mention made of various branches, or lines, or instantiations, or some other more peculiar and particular faction or facet of "the A.'.A.'.", and yet there are both more (Great White Brotherhood (GWB) franchises, Third Order contacts, or Celestial Master extensions) and less (one student per contact; no social events or functions; no actual rosters) complications to the mention of it at all. terrestrial history of what is called the A.'.A.'. starts with what was initiated by George Cecil Jones and Aleister Crowley, but its aftermath and its various outlets or wider scope of operation is usually too ambiguous and broad to specify with any accuracy.

the interest by some of cementing certain A.'.A.'. franchises to their order (OTO or other) is both strategic and subject to propagandizement for purpose of affiliation. there are reasons for a consideration of secrecy surrounding it, and all GWB manifestations, and one might compare references to it in public zones to a kind of 'encrustation' sliding from Third Order to Second Order (compare the inclusion of the GD interior to the A.'.A.'. as indicated by the essay 'One Star in Sight'). arguably social strife surrounding these is an indicator that the individual providing this is compromised, possibly helping to taint that about which they are speaking. contention amongst these, supposed, is a total disclosure of their disconnection from the Hidden Masters (whatever name they go by).

Alrah

@nigris said

"
@Azidonis said
"
@nigris said
"it's a top-down heirarchy (Old AEon). its incentives are only partly informed by A.'.A.'. standards (insofar as those who are affiliated to this initiatic club are actually connected to the Third Order). it isn't a democracy!! did you notice what happened when there were objections to 'reforms' made within the order previously?"
Oh, do tell! What happened "when there were objections to 'reforms' made within the order [A:.A:.] previously", and what were those objections and reforms?"
"NOT the AA, the OTO." additionally, i'd like to address this conflation and confusion somewhat. not only is there a (fairly ridiculous at this point since most of the realistic disputants have all but dropped their cases as far as i can see, but real) dispute about what one might mean by 'O.T.O.', but also a very real confusion about to what "the A.'.A.'." refers.

you'll see mention made of various branches, or lines, or instantiations, or some other more peculiar and particular faction or facet of "the A.'.A.'.", and yet there are both more (Great White Brotherhood (GWB) franchises, Third Order contacts, or Celestial Master extensions) and less (one student per contact; no social events or functions; no actual rosters) complications to the mention of it at all. terrestrial history of what is called the A.'.A.'. starts with what was initiated by George Cecil Jones and Aleister Crowley, but its aftermath and its various outlets or wider scope of operation is usually too ambiguous and broad to specify with any accuracy.

the interest by some of cementing certain A.'.A.'. franchises to their order (OTO or other) is both strategic and subject to propagandizement for purpose of affiliation. there are reasons for a consideration of secrecy surrounding it, and all GWB manifestations, and one might compare references to it in public zones to a kind of 'encrustation' sliding from Third Order to Second Order (compare the inclusion of the GD interior to the A.'.A.'. as indicated by the essay 'One Star in Sight'). arguably social strife surrounding these is an indicator that the individual providing this is compromised, possibly helping to taint that about which they are speaking. contention amongst these, supposed, is a total disclosure of their disconnection from the Hidden Masters (whatever name they go by)."

The Florence Farr lineage would speak of the sphere in contrast to mundane organisations (like the OTO) that derived their power from pyramid structures. It is the same idea as you set out above and more current or known of in GD lineages. The sphere is one that has no circumference, and so is more of a movement like Thelema, or like the GWB, or that transmitted from the traditions. The sphere promotes the balance, seeks the peace and furthers evolution or (r)evolution - depending upon the circumstances and they may hedge their bets too. It has no formal lodges or order but it is the true power at work upon the face of the Earth.

Karel McCoy

Hi I am new on this page. Salutations! There is a theme running through the kill fill "thing" that is evident to me. That is that, even those who are in agreement initially, resort to a dog scrap, and it is beyond disturbing. Although we have differing opinions, looking at us all "fighting as brothers" Makes me think of children trying to gain some authority and it is annoying. Civility is lost. Language limited. Ideas swamped. When we could be debating this emotive issue with at least some decency, decorum. All I can see is your a d... No, it's you, you are an as...... This is not about personal attack. But it has become so. And where do you think that will lead? I know where. But it is not a place anyone can move from or grow with. It is called Stalemate. Argue! I do! But please, not to insult each other. Even if you feel insulted yourself. You are my Brothers and Sisters, and I hold you in high regard. Be considerate, show how evolved you are. I also can say... shit fuck dick arse. But I choose not to.
Sister Karel
Sr. I.O