"Kill/Fill" - not "Kill Bill"
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@LAShTAL said
"Frater Superior of the OTO has today published a very substantial third paper and extensive appendices explaining the decision to implement a change to Liber CCXX.
www.lashtal.com/forum/index.php?topic=6188.msg76917;"
Paul, thanks for cross-posting this here and sharing it with us.
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@Alrah said
"
Of course... he's assuming that the original paraphrase of the Stele says 'kill me'...(It doesn't, but I have to respect the confidentiality of my source about this at this time, and I'm afraid I cannot say further right now. All in good time... so be in good cheer! I am!
)"Are you implying that the "Vellum Book" exists, and you know who has it?
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"Distrust any explanation whatsoever. Disreali said: Never ask anyone to dinner who has to be explained. All explanations are intended to cover up lies, injustices, or shames. The Truth is radiantly simple."
Liber al II:30, with new commentary:
Anyway; been away for a while doing my own thing, I come back to the whole kill/fill thing even more certain that the whole thing is rubbish, as a friend of mine said: A fish rots from the head first. I have withdrawn my support from (C)OTO and will be attending to my own work without being disturbed by their antics.
The slaves shall serve.
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Archaeus,
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
@Archaeus said
""Distrust any explanation whatsoever. Disreali said: Never ask anyone to dinner who has to be explained. All explanations are intended to cover up lies, injustices, or shames. The Truth is radiantly simple.""
Thank you for that quote; best quote ever. I can't stand these "walking brains" (scholars, bureaucrats, politicians etc.) invoking "because" all the time - and getting away with it! - fooling the ordinary man for being "intelligent", when the case often really is severe retardation!
These "air-heads", "Rainmen" whatever; are destroying the world as a whole.
The cure is simply not to argue; not to listen. My former psychopathic boss; my Master and teacher learned me all about this skill. I used to come to her with this "problem", and she talked and reasoned for a while, and finally I left the room with this good feeling - only to find out a week later, that the problem remained and that I was still angry...
That's why there is a point in time when I simply stop listening, because if you do listen you are "lost" in the pit called because...
EDIT: Oh yes, about the matter at hand: It is so simple, the most simplest thing in the world, but these "masterminds", these "air-heads" fail to understand simple logic:
YOU CAN MAKE AN ARGUMENT OUT OF BOTH PERSPECTIVES - "TO CHANGE OR NOT TO CHANGE"... THIS MAKES THE CHANGING FROM "FILLME" TO "KILLME", TO BE NOTHING BUT A VERY "VAGUE" AND "SPECULATIVE" CASE - SINCE THE OPPOSITE IS JUST AS TRUE!
THIS IS THE MOST SIMPLE LOGIC THAT EVEN A SMALL CHILD CAN UNDERSTAND - BUT THE "INTELLECTUAL" - THE "AIR-HEAD" FAILS HORRIBLY IN THIS...
Love is the law, love under will.
Peace
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"I've read it. He says Crowley must have 'forgot' that the 'fill me' in the Evocation of Bartzabel was really a 'kill me'. In other words - he's defending a two typo theory.
"So according to this, Crowley was Mr. Magoo and not the Magus of the Aeon.
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@Metzareph said
"
"I've read it. He says Crowley must have 'forgot' that the 'fill me' in the Evocation of Bartzabel was really a 'kill me'. In other words - he's defending a two typo theory."So according to this, Crowley was Mr. Magoo and not the Magus of the Aeon."
Basically! According to Gunther lineage then Crowley was forgetful, negligent, and was a chess master with a bad memory (that's a first!). Or he was overworked, too drug addled to cope, lazy (that explains K2 then..).
I chalk it up as psychological projections on their part. HB makes a mistake with kill & fill so Crowley must have made a mistake. HB is overworked while editing the Holy Books so Crowley must have been overworked. HB forgets to make footnotes so Crowley must have been forgetful and negligent too. Crowley took cocaine at times (such interesting effects on the ego)... is this why HB cannot really imagine himself wrong on this issue despite all the evidence to the contrary? Actually, I would seriously like to know if HB has a drug problem.
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I got about 8 pages into H.B.'s third document, and do plan on going over some remarks within it, when time permits. For now though, I would like to point out a statement made in his second argument.
That is, "I am grateful to the the Officers of the A.'.A.'. for consenting to the release of part of this ritual material. This was done in the public interest, so as to further our
understanding of Crowley’s intention with Liber Legis". - H.B.If someone wouldn't mind helping me understand English, saying "the Officers of the A.'.A.'." implies one of two things: 1) ALL of the Officers of the A.'.A.'., or 2) THE Officers of the A.'.A.'. (as in, the 'main ones'). Maybe it implies a third thing. If someone would please help me understand this not-so-subtle wording, I will be grateful. As I said, even though English is regrettably my first and only fluent language, I still have a hard time understanding what may appear to others as "clear".
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Has anyone noticed that the scan of the handwritten MS of the Evocation of Bartzabel, contains a correction by Crowley at the top of the page? The correction is written in a heavier pen, which suggests Crowley checked the MS and corrected it after he had written it. The point being that he had the opportunity to correct the 'fill me' if he'd considered it a typo - and he didn't.
@Az - I think what HB means by the phrase "The Officers of the A.'.A.'." is "The Officers of THE A.'.A.'." Gunther, Wasserman and Breeze typically take the attitude that their A.'.A.'. is the* one and only* and have even had the temerity to suggest that lineages such as the Soror Meral A.'.A.'., or the McMurtry lineage, or the Motta lineage currently run by Ray Eales, should all change their name and not call themselves A.'.A.'. anymore!
What can we say about such rank egotism? Well... here's a picture!
http://i963.photobucket.com/albums/ae111/alrah/Loto_zpseac97ac0.jpg
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" I think what HB means by the phrase "The Officers of the A.'.A.'." is "The Officers of THE A.'.A.'." Gunther, Wasserman and Breeze "
I'm guessing that they are the creators of Liber Vesta as well?
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Azidonis - I believe the talk given by James Wasserman last December answers you question about the officers of the A.'.A.'. referred to by HB. According to Wasserman there are only 3 officers. Here is the transcript of his speech.
"James Wasserman speaking on Dec 16th 2012 at the 'Swirling Star Lodge', Florida.
"To begin with lineages...
In July of 1976, Motta and Grady declared magical war on each other. The head of the O.T.O. and the praemonstrator of A.'.A.'. each said "No" for the first time in our history. Crowley had worn the unified crown of both orders until his death in 1947. He passed that on to Karl Germer. If we date the Thelemic OTO to 1912, when Crowley joined and formed the English speaking OTO, the alliance between OTO and A.'.A.'. was a matter of course for half a century, and as far as we know the question of division or conflict between A.'.A.'. and OTO never once arose between 1962 and 1976. There were no such things as A.'.A.'. lineages.
During their negotiations in July of 1976, Grady accepted Motta's assertions of headship of A.'.A.'. If Motta was stating it Grady assumed it must have been true! Who else would dare make such a statement? Grady certainly never said anything like "Well, Howdy Marcello I'm Grady McMurtry from the Jane Wolf lineage, and I'm happy you're saying hello from over there in the Karl Germer line. Uhuh. The entire modern concept of A.'.A.'. lineages came about after the show down between these two leaders in 1976 and I know this because I was right in the middle.
Grady was absolutely clear about the relationship between OTO and A.'.A.'. He wrote in a July 21st 1976 letter to Motta that A.'.A.'. is the flaming heart of OTO. On the other hand, Grady was careful never to claim A.'.A.'. leadership, while fiercly defending his legitimate authority as head of the OTO. Motta never expressed any interest in the OTO, he repeatedly said he had no interest in the OTO, until he learned that Crowley had willed the copyrights to the OTO.
People today, listening to claims of a McMurtry lineage of A.'.A.'. or a Phyllis Seckler lineage of A'.A.'. simply have no idea how totally off the wall, such claims are, when viewed against both the spiritual reality of A.'.A.'. and the tradition of OTO.
I believe there is one A.'.A.'. with one set of officers; one praemonstrator, one imperator, and one cancellarius. Just as there is one OTO, with one outer head, one treasurer and one secretary. We have at last been able to dispense with such inane characterizations as 'the Caliphate OTO'.
If you have affiliated yourselves (I hope no-one in this room has) but if you have affiliated yourself with one of the outlying groups bragging about A.'.A'. lineages, you might consider correcting your mistake sooner rather than later. There is no shame in sincerely searching for truth; learning that you have been temporarily mislead by false claims, and using that as a learning opportunity to make better informed decisions. Believe me, we have all had to do it." "
I think it's important to point out that this account appears to make some assertions that are not supported by the evidence, or are presented in such a way that do not reflect an accurate picture of what went on during that period of time.
That Grady McMurtry did not claim leadership of the A.'.A.'. is really not surprising since his wife at the time, Phyllis Seckler, was his A.'.A.'. superior. Apart from Wasserman's bald assertions there is no evidence that Grady accepted Motta as headship of the A.'.A.'. It's far more likely that Grady said something long the lines of: if he want's to head his own A.'.A.'. down in Tennessee it's nothing to do with me. The idea that Grady would acknowledge Motta as THE HEAD of A.'.A.'. and thus the superior of both himself and Phyllis is frankly ridiculous, and even in the fleetingly unlikely event that he did so, it was not his call to make.
As for the statement that "Motta never expressed any interest in the OTO", Motta still believed he was the head of the OTO in July 1976. He was extremely paranoid and suspected some subterfuge in the matter of Germer's Will. It was at this time that Wasserman, Daniel Gunther and Richard Gernon deserted Motta and flew to California to take Minerval initiations in the OTO. Then on the 26th July 1976 Grady was recognized by the Superior Court of the State of California as the "Duly constituted and authorised representative of the Ordo Templi Orientis", and this so infuriated Motta that he decided to establish his own OTO in the United States and he immediately began filing papers through his A.'.A.'. branch in Tennessee to begin a corporation known as the Society Ordo Templi Orientis, more commonly known as SOTO.
So this idea that there was any kind of gentleman's agreement resolving a 'magical war' in which the spoils were divided up and Grady got the OTO while Marcello got the A.'.A.'. is pure fantasy fiction. Really - Mr Wasserman has missed is true calling and robbed the world of fiction writing of a very inventive and imaginative mind.
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"Motta never expressed any interest in the OTO, he repeatedly said he had no interest in the OTO, until he learned that Crowley had willed the copyrights to the OTO."
There is a difference between claims regarding the OTO and claims regarding the AA. Two very different orders with very different purposes.
This whole thing (including the Fill/Kill debacle) boils down to control and not the "spiritual reality of A.'.A.'. nor tradition of OTO".Also, Liber Vesta... seriously?
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@Metzareph said
"This whole thing (including the Fill/Kill debacle) boils down to control and not the "spiritual reality of A.'.A.'. nor tradition of OTO"."
Agreed. There cannot be anything less spiritual that trying to change and subvert the words of a Magus of the Aeon for your own purposes. These people are politicians... old politicians at that! And I think what these people don't understand is how media savvy and educated the young people of today really are - how able they are as a generation to see through the spin.
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@Azidonis said
"That is, "I am grateful to the the Officers of the A.'.A.'. for consenting to the release of part of this ritual material. This was done in the public interest, so as to further our understanding of Crowley’s intention with Liber Legis". - H.B.
If someone wouldn't mind helping me understand English, saying "the Officers of the A.'.A.'." implies one of two things: 1) ALL of the Officers of the A.'.A.'., or 2) THE Officers of the A.'.A.'. (as in, the 'main ones'). Maybe it implies a third thing. If someone would please help me understand this not-so-subtle wording, I will be grateful."
As the imprimaturs on the recent Equinox volumes he released would testify, there are three people that he regards as the A.'.A.'. Chiefs.
For myself, I would call them Chiefs of a particular lineage. In the past, Bill has said that my book, The Mystical & Magical System of the A.'.A.'. is flawed specifically because it speaks of lineages, and I've gone on to say that if that's the worst criticism I get, I'm happy to embrace the role of tolerant pragmatist
Regardless, he has his point of view, and I'm sure that's where he's coming from.
I also respect his not publishing the excerpt from a confidential A.'.A.'. initiation ritual without some such justification. That would create a far worse new precedent.
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Regarding Grady's "accepting" Motta's claim of leadership in A.'.A.'....
The context was a law suit over ownership of the mundane property called O.T.O. and its various holdings. The correct legal defense response to Motta's assertion would have been something along the lines of, "That matter isn't before this court," or even (presuming Motta was trying to link the two), "That's irrelevant to the present action."
That's the attorney's proper response. Grady's would have been some form of, "Sure, whatever."
On Motta vs. other leadership... I abide by our formal neutral answer here:
helema.org/aa/index.htmlSeparately, I add only the interesting facts that about a month before Germer's death, he affirmed in writing that Motta was no more than a 1=10, whereas a decade earlier he had affirmed (and discussed in lengthy correspondence) that Phyllis was at least a 5=6. If (note the 'if') these were the only two choices on who was "the member of the A.'.A.'. highest in rank (and then in seniority)" at Germer's death, it seems an easy choice.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Separately, I add only the interesting facts that about a month before Germer's death, he affirmed in writing that Motta was no more than a 1=10, whereas a decade earlier he had affirmed (and discussed in lengthy correspondence) that Phyllis was at least a 5=6. If (note the 'if') these were the only two choices on who was "the member of the A.'.A.'. highest in rank (and then in seniority)" at Germer's death, it seems an easy choice."
indeed it stands, Jim! Phyllis was far more advanced than Motta. However, I think in the rebuttal there is a danger of being forced into a false position due to the falsities of the claimant.
The only point I wish to make is probably a new one to you (whilst being old to me). But I believe you will recognize the providence as it's not the first time I have spoken of the subject, but I hope this will provide extra clarity.
I assert that the only head of any A.'.A.'. lineage is Crowley himself.
I also assert that the inspiration for the A.'.A.'. came from the work of Florence Farr when she sought to establish 'the Sphere', and that the A.'.A.'. is a direct successor of the Sphere conceptually, and I channel that from my own lineage.
Thus - we should not judge the A.'.A.'. as if it were a mundane organisation shaped with a pyramid power structure. We must look to the Sphere. There can be no head but Aleister Crowley as the Magus of the Aeon. There can be no 'true lineage' - as members of the Sphere will arise across the formal boundaries of lineage just as they do across the artificial boundaries of countries. Or they may arise from no known lineage as they will. The current will die, and be reborn, and live again, and die again.
And I know you know this in your heart Jim, as did your teacher, as did Jane Wolf, as did Crowley, and as did a thousand initiates afore these.
Today, a young man wrote to me and asked me where he could find a proper affiliation with the A.'.A.'. I wrote him this reply, which I think is pertinant generally to everyone that would seek an education from the A.'.A.'. :
93 Dear XXXXX, I believe you must have misunderstood the article.
There is no real head of the A.'.A.'. except perhaps Aleister Crowley as the Magus of the Aeon, and the only test of whether an A.'.A.'. is proper or not is whether they teach the material that A.C. placed in the public domain from the very beginning, and whether they produce Adepts and foster the cultivation of new Magisters (i.e. the accomplishment of the two main tasks of every magician).
You see, unlike organisations such as the OTO which has a pyramid structure and is concerned with mundane and worldly things like power and influence (as is the nature of all such pyramid organisations) - the inspiration for A.C.'s 'A.'.A.'. arose from a little known of group within the old Golden Dawn that was called at that time 'The Sphere'.
The members of the Sphere were purely interested in individual spiritual progression and work. The true A.'.A.'. are the successors of The Sphere and it may not be ruled by the mundane concerns of the pyramid organisations, but neither does it deny the validity of such organisations. It's initiates may derive from the Yellow, White and the Black schools of Magick and Philosophy without any one school dominating the other, but rather they counter-balance each other as interlocking parts of the whole. You will never find these true initiates as members of only one branch or mundane lineage, and you may find them as members of no known lineage at all.
If you are with a group claiming it is A.'.A.'. and it asks you for money, or does not tailor it's education to you as an individual, or if it is overly concerned with group work and social dynamics rather than providing you with a mentor that can fast track your spiritual progression, then I would advise you to look for another group. If you find yourself in a situation where you are censored or threatened, or abused in any way, shape or form and you feel guided by your Angel to do so - then leave. But if you are looking of some kind of status symbol to identify with which will please your ego and think there is any group that does not have it's faults and it's flaws, and is some type of 'one and only' then I shall not encourage you further along that pointless path.
If you want to truly affiliate with the A.'.A.'. or the Sphere, then look within yourself. YOU are the proper A.'.A.'. and how much work you do to manifest that as a light to your brothers and sisters of the OTO, who are still seeking refuge from their discontent and 'aloneness' is up to you. Your ultimate work at the moment is to resolve the matter of the duality between the Self and the Not-Self, and to come into your own. People can help you along the way, but they cannot do the work for you.
Best of luck Brother,
A .'. 93 93/93.
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@Alrah said
"
The only point I wish to make is probably a new one to you (whilst being old to me). But I believe you will recognize the providence as it's not the first time I have spoken of the subject, but I hope this will provide extra clarity.I assert that the only head of any A.'.A.'. lineage is Crowley himself."
Not new, and I've entertained it (and even used it) at times. No need to go off-topic to elaborate now, but I'm not averse to what you say, at least in certain applications. - Although, in the sense that I think you mean it, I probably would say Aiwass instead.
From a private paper internal to the Soror Estai lineage, authored by Soror Meral and me, from a section discussing the A.'.A.'. traditional office of Praemonstrator-General:
"Inasmuch as there is, at present, no world head of A.'.A.'., Aiwass (“93”) is regarded by the Sor. Estai lineage as the functional Praemonstrator-General. This may be changed in the future should one of the Adepts of the lineage who is of the 7=4 Grade be appointed to this Office by the Silver Star. Nonetheless, it being the firm policy of this lineage that there is no world head, it is not anticipated that even a Praemonstrator-General recognized in this lineage would assert, or attempt to assert, General Authority over the Order outside of the lineage. (This note is incorporated herein by agreement of Sor. Meral and Fra. Aur Heru as an instruction for those who come after.)"
I have no objection to the idea that Crowley's G.D. Praemonstrator and initiating Hierophant had an influence on the A.'.A.'. formation, though I probably wouldn't go much further than that - and I'm not sure that I care where the "inspiration" came from. (I can as easily, and at least as accurately, joke that Vivekananda is the inspirer, and have often joked that when he died in 1903 he changed his name to Aiwass and looked around for his next assignment.) - But I get why that distinction is important to you.
(Starting to get OT on the rest, so I'm being careful not to engage it.)
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@Azidonis said
"That is, "I am grateful to the the Officers of the A.'.A.'. for consenting to the release of part of this ritual material. This was done in the public interest, so as to further our understanding of Crowley’s intention with Liber Legis". - H.B.If someone wouldn't mind helping me understand English, saying "the Officers of the A.'.A.'." implies one of two things: 1) ALL of the Officers of the A.'.A.'., or 2) THE Officers of the A.'.A.'. (as in, the 'main ones'). Maybe it implies a third thing. If someone would please help me understand this not-so-subtle wording, I will be grateful."
As the imprimaturs on the recent Equinox volumes he released would testify, there are three people that he regards as the A.'.A.'. Chiefs.
For myself, I would call them Chiefs of a particular lineage. In the past, Bill has said that my book, The Mystical & Magical System of the A.'.A.'. is flawed specifically because it speaks of lineages, and I've gone on to say that if that's the worst criticism I get, I'm happy to embrace the role of tolerant pragmatist
Regardless, he has his point of view, and I'm sure that's where he's coming from.
I also respect his not publishing the excerpt from a confidential A.'.A.'. initiation ritual without some such justification. That would create a far worse new precedent."
Thanks for the reply. I have been content to view them in the same way for quite some time, although I have at times in the past (falsely) hoped for some sort of union between lineages.
It does seem that they are out to commit only themselves as "THE A:.A:. lineage", which I know beyond all doubt to be a complete and total lie.
And that all of this is being put "on the back of the A:.A:.", as it were. That particular 'lineage' (if it can even be called that!), is a clear indication of fraud, in my humble opinion.
Not even Motta stooped so low... or did he? I don't remember hearing of him doing so.
As for your book, I don't care what the say - the masterpiece that you presented was far more worthy of Class B than Gunther's trash, and I'm really trying to put that nicely.
@Metzareph said
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There is a difference between claims regarding the OTO and claims regarding the AA. Two very different orders with very different purposes.
This whole thing (including the Fill/Kill debacle) boils down to control and not the "spiritual reality of A.'.A.'. nor tradition of OTO"."This appears true, unfortunately. And to be quite honest, it's sickening.
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I've written a critical review of HB's recent third article, which is available to read on Scribd.
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@Alrah said
"I've written a critical review of HB's recent third article, which is available to read on Scribd.
Liked the article.
Unfortunately, no articles or discussions are going to change H.B.'s mind. At the moment, he's just gathering information and objections, and doing his best to come up with as solid of a case as possible - but the outcome of that case will continue to be in favor of "kill" in his eyes, no matter how much anyone reasons with him.
And then there are people who are "on his side" no matter what he chooses - a quaint little Bill Breeze army.
He wants it to be "kill". He wants a (c)O.T.O. and a (c)A:.A:.
What he fails to realize is that a (c)A:.A:. is impossible.
So, let the B.B. continue to reason and 'debate', and do as much as he can to confuse the symbols. It ultimately means nothing more than him spreading a big stain across the pages of Thelema that will last until it is removed, for all things are impermanent.
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@Azidonis said
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@Alrah said
"I've written a critical review of HB's recent third article, which is available to read on Scribd.Liked the article.
Unfortunately, no articles or discussions are going to change H.B.'s mind. At the moment, he's just gathering information and objections, and doing his best to come up with as solid of a case as possible - but the outcome of that case will continue to be in favor of "kill" in his eyes, no matter how much anyone reasons with him. "
Cheers. I felt that the 220 good folk that have signed the petition so far deserved something a little more substantial from me than Facebook soundbites.
The last time HB made an error like this was when he “corrected” Magick (Liber ABA) (1994 and later editions) to change their original readings of “kill me” to “fill me”. He is able to admit that he was woefully misguided in this, and hopefully he will have learned enough caution from making that mistake to admit to himself that he may be making another in exactly the same vein.
Frater HB needs to learn the proper use of the logical AND statement, instead of overusing the logical OR... and I suggest it may improve his meditations and be a boon to his GW as well. Just imagine the sort of knots the poor fellow is likely to get into if he applies the logical OR instead of the AND to the dualism of the Self vs. the NOT-Self.