Heru-Ra-Ha, Ra-Hoor-Khuit, Hoor-Paar-Kraat, and Horus
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@kasper81 said
"Materialism: The doctrine that nothing exists except matter and its movements and modifications."
Materialism isn't a "doctrine." It's the lack of belief in any worlds other than the material one.
I've never met a single person who believes, as a matter of doctrine or dogma, that the material world is all there is. I've met scores and scores of people who are unconvinced that any other worlds exist and who therefore currently lack a belief in any worlds besides the material.
I'm afraid that trying to define materialism as a "doctrine" or a "belief" is nothing more than a clumsy attempt to make all positions whatsoever look like religions and, by implication, to suggest that "ahh, everybody's got equally unjustified beliefs in something, so it's all a wash...."
You could see why someone would try that, but it's not going to work on people who are at least partway paying attention.
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@Los said
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@kasper81 said
"Materialism: The doctrine that nothing exists except matter and its movements and modifications."Materialism isn't a "doctrine." It's the lack of belief in any worlds other than the material one.
I've never met a single person who believes, as a matter of doctrine or dogma, that the material world is all there is. I've met scores and scores of people who are unconvinced that any other worlds exist and who therefore currently lack a belief in any worlds besides the material.
I'm afraid that trying to define materialism as a "doctrine" or a "belief" is nothing more than a clumsy attempt to make all positions whatsoever look like religions and, by implication, to suggest that "ahh, everybody's got equally unjustified beliefs in something, so it's all a wash...."
You could see why someone would try that, but it's not going to work on people who are at least partway paying attention."
Anyone with any sort of philosophical education recognizes this as circular nonsense with which materialists self-justify their belief system.
A "lack of belief" based on some principle logically demands* belief *in that principle. Investigation of that principle reveals the dogma.
Anything else is just double-talking nonsense.
I mean... my freakin' god! You're actually trying to act like materialists don't have questionable presuppositions. Everyone has axiomatic presuppositions! Everyone! And absolutely all - ALL - epistemologies begin with some element of belief!
It makes me crazy how absolutely, condescendingly, and authoritatively you present a dead freaking worldview as if it has any current relevance. It's nonsensically atavistic! I can't believe you take yourself seriously.
I mean, join the freaking modern (actually post-modern) era!
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@Legis said
"I mean... my freakin' god! You're actually trying to act like materialist don't have questionable presuppositions."
I didn't say that. I said that materialists don't have a belief that the material world is all there is. They lack certain kinds of beliefs.
What "questionable presupposition" do you think that I hold, and what makes you think that it is questionable? Depending on exactly what you mean, I might even agree with you.
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@Legis said
"A "lack of belief" based on some principle logically demands belief in that principle."
Exactly.
In this context, excruciatingly humorous when a major aspect of magick is "suspension of disbelief." In other words, being able to "believe" X at will.
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@Los said
"What "questionable presupposition" do you think that I hold, and what makes you think that it is questionable? Depending on exactly what you mean, I might even agree with you."
Demonstrate self-awareness and state your presuppositions yourself.
@Los said
"I didn't say that. "
Because I'm not playing this game with you again.
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Well, going back to the original topic, as discussed earlier:
Ra-Hoor-Khuit - the "active principle".
Hoor-Paar-Kraat - the "passive principle".In my experience, these "principles" can be displayed as atavistic behavior when they become imbalanced (lacking adjustment). Does anybody agree with this? Does anybody want to discuss, from their own experience, what these behaviors may look like when there is an "active principle" imbalance?
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FWIW, I've tended, in recent years, to move away from "passive" as the description, and adopt "still."
IMHO the Twins are referenced in the phrase, "stir me or still me". They are movement (or stirring) and stillness. (And yes, of course, these both have atavistic expressions just as they can have inspired - and inspiring - expressions.)
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@Jim Eshelman said
"(And yes, of course, these both have atavistic expressions just as they can have inspired - and inspiring - expressions.)"
Thanks for the laugh, Jim. You knew exactly what I was trying to say.
I agree completely.
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I kinda missed Los
@Los said
"I said that materialists don't have a belief that the material world is all there is. They lack certain kinds of beliefs. "
Surely materialists believe that all phenomenon in the universe is explainable by physics and chemistry, no?
Surely materialists also believe that 'minds' are brains and minds are nothing more than brain activity, no?
Surely materialists believe that only humans, and perhaps some animals, have consciousness, and things like planets, stars, rocks, oceans have no consciousness, correct?
It's not beliefs that is holding this subject of materialists up, it's quite confusing it.
Materialists have assumptions about the material world that they dare not assume for anything else.
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@Los said
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@Legis said
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@Los said
"What "questionable presupposition" do you think that I hold[?]"Demonstrate self-awareness and state your presuppositions yourself."
See? Even you don't know what you meant."
How familiar is this game though...?
"You think [this]"
"I didn't say that."
"It's inherent to your thinking."
"That's the Los in your head."I know you know how to defend yourself in debate, and I have no interest in playing "talking points" and going through those same moves with you again.
The question is - are* you* actually aware enough of your own presuppositions to* attempt *to consider them objectively and own them as *choices *instead of certainties?
I doubt that you are, otherwise you'd be a little more tolerant of other choices.
Well, either you aren't aware of your presuppositions, or you're hedging on them in order to maintain your debate position. Either way, I got no respect for it.
Anyway..., between the hypocritical Peanut Gallery (whom I've watched behave in this exact same manner on this day or that) and the falsely sincere Inquisitor (who likes to act all open for discussion while keeping his friends notified about all the supposed crazy talk), I'm just not feeling it anymore.
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@Legis said
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Anyway..., between the hypocritical Peanut Gallery (whom I've watched behave in this exact same manner on this day or that) and the falsely sincere Inquisitor (who likes to act all open for discussion while keeping his friends notified about all the supposed crazy talk), I'm just not feeling it anymore."Perfectly stated. Neither you nor I require them to have understood it. It stands to reason and that is enough.
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FWIW - I enjoy the posts from Los, Legis, and Takamba. Thanks guys.
I think most of them are pretty lively and entertaining. I do agree that some of them spin around in circles and it gets tired at times...
But, for the most part, many of the comments from the discussions are pretty thought-provoking, even though everyone may disagree here and there. And I think, generally, it is useful to see many POVs - there is a lot of learning going around here for me and many other people that browse...even if it's just from a social interaction perspective...
Man, that's why I like Thelema. The diversity is fun.
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@ldfriend56 said
"Surely materialists believe that all phenomenon in the universe is explainable by physics and chemistry, no?"
I can't speak for all materialists, but I don't necessarily believe that that's the case. Perhaps there are things that humans will never be able to explain. I really don't have enough information to say.
At any rate, we were talking about what materialism is, not specific things that (many) materialists (might) believe, which is what your list of questions was trying to suggest. For example, I'm sure most materialists believe that the earth travels around the sun, but that belief isn't defining of what materialism is.
The thing that constitutes materialism is lacking belief in other worlds, on the basis of there being insufficient evidence for the existence of any other worlds. It's not a belief, not a dogma, not a doctrine, and certainly not a "religion." It's not on equal footing with supernatural beliefs.
"Materialists have assumptions about the material world that they dare not assume for anything else."
Name one, then.
I believe the material world exists, of course, because I have tons of evidence to support that. Anything extra -- claims that there are other worlds -- needs to be supported with sufficient evidence, and without it, people are more than justified in not accepting those claims.
It's that lack of belief -- that not accepting the claims about other worlds -- that constitutes materialism.
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Hey Los - thanks for engaging with me. I enjoy the sport of these sorts of discussions and learn from them.
Surely materialists believe that all phenomenon in the universe is explainable by physics and chemistry, no?
"I can't speak for all materialists, but I don't necessarily believe that that's the case. Perhaps there are things that humans will never be able to explain. "
hmmm, not sure how intellectually honest this response here is of yours, considering our last conversations and especially in a post or two above, you actually do speak for all materialists and suggest that they lack belief.
If you do not believe that physics and chemistry can explain all phenomena in the universe, you may have a very irregular definition of materialism because materialism by it's very nature is measurable. What things to you suppose that humans may never be able to explain? Spirits for example? Disincarnate intelligences? Consciousness?
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At any rate, we were talking about what materialism is, not specific things that (many) materialists (might) believe, which is what your list of questions was trying to suggest. For example, I'm sure most materialists believe that the earth travels around the sun, but that belief isn't defining of what materialism is."Materialism is the belief that all phenomenon is explainable in material measurements put forth by physics and chemistry. It is the opposite of dualism, which postulates that there is a realm of matter, governed by the laws of nature, and a realm of spirit, governed by unseen forces. Materialism is the belief that everything is physical and Materialism is a philosophical monism.
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The thing that constitutes materialism is lacking belief in other worlds, on the basis of there being insufficient evidence for the existence of any other worlds. It's not a belief, not a dogma, not a doctrine, and certainly not a "religion.""It's a philosophy, with it's own context of things which it believes to be true just like any other belief system. What sets materialism apart is the authority of science which depends upon physics and chemistry to measure physical reality and postulate what is real.
I do think you are again not being intellectually honest when you say Materialism is a lack of belief in other worlds. I assume you mean other 'realms' of existence that are beyond the material existence. Atheists, the militant kind, are often quite guilty of making this claim, saying that they have no belief in God because there is no evidence of God, and therefore only believe what their senses and measurements tell them. It's only the Theists that believe in things, not them!
You can see how the belief that all phenomena in nature and the universe must be measurable in terms of physics or chemistry is a core component of your, and theirs, belief system here, so much so you are completely unconscious of the effect of this belief system has on your own arguments. It's implicit in your very words.
"It's not on equal footing with supernatural beliefs."
Interesting metaphor, and of course a false idea. Any philosophy, world view or even just community or self view is a context of ideas that an adherent believes and accepts as true - hence, also by definition also a belief system. Of course you believe what you know to be true.
Materialists have assumptions about the material world that they dare not assume for anything else.
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Name one, then."How about the one I started with? that all phenomena in nature and the universe must be measurable in terms of physics or chemistry and all that we can say is real is that which is measurable in those terms.
Please don't try and irrationalize that you don't believe that, because you most certainly do believe that at a very deep level of your own psychology.
See - you shout it from the rooftops even more here. (lol on equal footing no doubt with religious evangelists )
"I believe the material world exists, of course, because I have tons of evidence to support that. Anything extra -- claims that there are other worlds -- needs to be supported with sufficient evidence, and without it, people are more than justified in not accepting those claims."
Please, let's not get irrational even further. Love your materialism Los do not shun it
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It's that lack of belief -- that not accepting the claims about other worlds -- that constitutes materialism."
Consider the non logic of this phrase -Your saying that what 'makes' materialism is what materialism contains, and what it contains is something that it does not have.
Clearly you see how that definition makes absolutely no sense whatsoever of materialism, yes?
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I realize that ideas like that ones I’m sharing are not always easy to grasp immediately – especially if you’ve spent years and years and years thinking that materialism and atheism are “beliefs” or positive positions – so I’ll try to be a little patient in explaining them.
The thing that qualifies a person for being a materialist – the one thing that all materialists share – is lacking a belief in any worlds besides the physical one.
In the same way, the one thing that qualifies a person for being an atheist – the one thing that all atheists share – is lacking a belief in any deities.
After that, all bets are off. An atheist or materialist can believe all sorts of things, whether for good reasons or bad ones.
Some materialists, for example, go a step further and believe (actively) that there are no worlds besides the physical one, just as some atheists go a step further and believe (actively) that there are no gods. But those beliefs are extra. The thing that makes those people materialists is their lack of belief.
So, as you can see, it’s not at all an assumption of materialism that “all things can be explained by physics and chemistry.” I’m sure there are materialists who might accept that claim, but that’s just some extra claim, over and on top of their lack of belief in any worlds besides the physical one.
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@Los said
"I realize that ideas like that ones I’m sharing are not always easy to grasp immediately – especially if you’ve spent years and years and years thinking that materialism and atheism are “beliefs” or positive positions – so I’ll try to be a little patient in explaining them."
Lol, well repeating what you wrote twice already is not really explaining anything new here and it may be a symptom of obsession rather than patience
If you want to have your own personal Idaho of Materialism that's fine, it's just not compatible with how Materialism is defined in the philosophy of science.
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@Los said
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The thing that constitutes materialism is lacking belief in other worlds, on the basis of there being insufficient evidence for the existence of any other worlds. It's not a belief, not a dogma, not a doctrine, and certainly not a "religion." It's not on equal footing with supernatural beliefs.
"Then that's your particular definition, special to you. You can go about conveniently changing the meanings of words to suit your desires (this is not the first time I've watched you do it), but it doesn't change the reality that the philosophical definition of "Materialism" was exactly quoted to you and it is what everyone else calls.
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f51/Baccus93/Materialism.jpg
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@kasper81 said
"not a doctrine?"
Not a doctrine.
People here seem not to realize that dictionaries don’t create meaning – they record usage. Entries in dictionaries may not reflect the way words are used by the actual people who hold specific positions. For example, many dictionaries still incorrectly give the definition of atheism as “the belief there is no God,” and some even still give the definition “immorality” as its second meaning.
When I’m explaining my position – and the position of substantially every materialist I’ve ever met – you can’t sensibly respond by telling me I’m wrong because my usage doesn’t line up to what some book says.
And if you want to insist I’m not a “real materialist,” then fine. Label me whatever you want: it doesn’t change the substance of my positions. The substantial issue, if you’ll recall, is that someone accused me of holding “assumptions about the material world,” and I wanted to know what that poster had in mind. But when pressed, he was unable to offer any. Another poster then claimed that I assume that “all things can be explained by physics and chemistry,” but not only do I not assume that, I don’t even accept it as true. It’s certainly not an assumption required by people who lack belief in worlds other than the physical (regardless of the label you would put on us).
" Actually Los, in terms of (1) your views and (2) your interest in Thelema and Crowley how do you connect those two, seemingly opposing elements to the following quotes which are from Liber Al, which is central to Thelema?
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There is great danger in me; for who doth not understand these runes shall make a great miss. He shall fall down into the pit called Because, and there he shall perish with the dogs of Reason.
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Now a curse upon Because and his kin!
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May Because be accursed for ever!
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Also reason is a lie; for there is a factor infinite & unknown; & all their words are skew-wise.
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Enough of Because! Be he damned for a dog!
maybe these quoted sentences actually justify your views"
Good question. And the answer is that most people misinterpret these verses as saying that reason shouldn’t be used to evaluate certain factual claims. However, these verses are not talking about evaluating factual claims: they’re talking about action.
You see, the primary thing that prevents most people from doing their Will is their own mind, and the rational faculty of the mind – while immensely useful for evaluating the world around us – tends to mislead a person into following its phantoms instead of paying attention to his Will.
For example, someone may not want to do X, but he’ll tell himself, “I ought to do X because it’s the right thing to do.” You see that because? It’s that (rational) act of talking oneself into taking an action – against one’s natural inclinations – that is anathema to Thelema.
If your actions are motivated by “reasons” generated in the mind, then you’re not acting out of the True Will, by definition. As Crowley says, it’s pointless to ask a dog why it barks. It just does because it’s the nature of a dog to bark. That’s the way it is with a True Will. There’s not a “reason” that one’s True Will is the way that it is: one just is a certain way.
The task of discovering the True Will, then, cannot be accomplished by means of the reason. A person cannot think his way to the Will. However, reason is a vitally necessary tool for helping to manifest the True Will, by evaluating the territory through which the Will is navigating.
To think of it another way, in all normal healthy uninitiated people, it is the mind – and not the Will – that runs the show. These people live in an imaginary world, where duties, obligations, morality, ideas about what “good people” should do, their conceptions of “what’s right,” etc., are real, substantial things for them. It’s these ideas that drive them, rather than their inclinations.
They are “slaves of Because.” They act because their minds tell them that such-and-such actions are the “right thing to do.”
The process of initiation – and I mean actual initiation, which is always self-initiation, not the joining of a club – entails ceasing to identify with these thoughts and shifting one’s attention more and more fully to the True Self and its inclinations.
Rather than the mind directing the show, the Will then runs the show, and the mind serves it by offering to the Will as accurate a picture of the territory as possible so that the Will can manifest in ways most pleasing to the True Self.
That’s about it in a nutshell. For more, see here: helema-and-skepticism.blogspot.com/2011/09/profiles-in-ignorance-2-misinterpreting_10.html
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