Degrees of Joy activation according to the grades
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@Frater Horus said
"As i understand Joy corresponds to 2, and ultimate Joy to Nuit, but to what degree is it supposed to be experienced in earlier grades?"
It varies. Given your use of "supposed to," I'd probably answer "not at all" - that is, it isn't an inherent characteristic of most specific grades. The biggest exception is 5=6 where the Beatific Vision is pretty hard to distinguish from joy most of the time.
But the pathway through the grades, while often joyful, is also often painful and confronting. Joy depends on individual karma.
"For instance in Netzach, there is a good amount of Joy activated."
Not necessarily. My 4=7 had a lot of happiness and a good measure of joy, but it isn't necessarily a characteristic across all people.
"Or is it very different according to individuals... maybe until HGA or supernals?"
Yes. And even after that. For example, 6=5 commonly lives up to the word "severity." And, of course, the dismantling of the Abyss isn't usually experienced as joy at all (though the consequences are).
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@Jim Eshelman said
" The biggest exception is 5=6 where the Beatific Vision is pretty hard to distinguish from joy most of the time."
Does the Beatific Vision corresponds to entrance into 6(adept "without") or to Knowledge and Conversation("within")?
Also, isnt this experience very related to what begins to be experienced before, lets say in 8? For instance some forms of Dhyana, the visions of 3=8 or the rising on the planes of 4=7 seem to have in common some kind of expansion of consciousness similar to what might be experienced during the 5=6 ritual, basically taking the astral visions as far as they can go and somehow melting them into anther form of reality, Briah(which if i'm right feels very different and have this "eternal", "impermanent" and "overwelming" although "calm" taste... somehow like meditating on Atziluth from Yetzirah...?). Ultimately isnt always a reflection of supernals which brings joy in some kind of another?
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@Frater Horus said
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@Jim Eshelman said
" The biggest exception is 5=6 where the Beatific Vision is pretty hard to distinguish from joy most of the time."Does the Beatific Vision corresponds to entrance into 6(adept "without") or to Knowledge and Conversation("within")?"
Yes, though it is deepened by the K&C.
"Also, isnt this experience very related to what begins to be experienced before, lets say in 8? For instance some forms of Dhyana, the visions of 3=8 or the rising on the planes of 4=7 seem to have in common some kind of expansion of consciousness similar to what might be experienced during the 5=6 ritual, basically taking the astral visions as far as they can go and somehow melting them into anther form of reality, Briah(which if i'm right feels very different and have this "eternal", "impermanent" and "overwelming" although "calm" taste... somehow like meditating on Atziluth from Yetzirah...?). Ultimately isnt always a reflection of supernals which brings joy in some kind of another?"
Whew, that's quite a package! <g> I think I'll limit myself to saying, (1) there is no expectation of dhyana before 3=8, and dharana isn't even examined until Dominus Liminis. (2) Of course the prior grades are starting to build inner patterns that will be of use to a particular aspirant's Great Work in 5=6. More generally, 3=8 and 4=7 are starting to build bridges between Yetzirah and Briah. (3) By "the 5=6 ritual," do you mean Liber 8, or something else? (4) I think you are attempting to over-generalize, and build up a fantasy system that fits some preconceptions.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@Frater Horus said
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@Jim Eshelman said
" The biggest exception is 5=6 where the Beatific Vision is pretty hard to distinguish from joy most of the time."Does the Beatific Vision corresponds to entrance into 6(adept "without") or to Knowledge and Conversation("within")?"
Yes, though it is deepened by the K&C.
"Also, isnt this experience very related to what begins to be experienced before, lets say in 8? For instance some forms of Dhyana, the visions of 3=8 or the rising on the planes of 4=7 seem to have in common some kind of expansion of consciousness similar to what might be experienced during the 5=6 ritual, basically taking the astral visions as far as they can go and somehow melting them into anther form of reality, Briah(which if i'm right feels very different and have this "eternal", "impermanent" and "overwelming" although "calm" taste... somehow like meditating on Atziluth from Yetzirah...?). Ultimately isnt always a reflection of supernals which brings joy in some kind of another?"
Whew, that's quite a package! <g> I think I'll limit myself to saying, (1) there is no expectation of dhyana before 3=8, and dharana isn't even examined until Dominus Liminis. (2) Of course the prior grades are starting to build inner patterns that will be of use to a particular aspirant's Great Work in 5=6. More generally, 3=8 and 4=7 are starting to build bridges between Yetzirah and Briah. (3) By "the 5=6 ritual," do you mean Liber 8, or something else? (4) I think you are attempting to over-generalize, and build up a fantasy system that fits some preconceptions."
Thanks, thats quite answers !
By 5=6 ritual i mean the one where you invoke (almost)everything there is. But now you mention it i reread liber 8 and it contains the best sum up of what i am trying to say(and you answered to): "the mystery of holyness". That's it ! -
"Degrees of Joy activation according to the grades".
Joy activation? Degrees? Why are you interested in measuring joy? And why are you interested in looking at that particular angle of the A.'.A.'. initiatory path? It gives me a bad feeling, like the system is being approached as merely a drug of sorts to induce different colors of "joy", like that's the whole point. Tell me that's a poor impression. -
From what I've seen so far doing the Work does indeed increase one's capacity for joy; it also increases one's capacity for all sorts of other things, such as sadness, grief, smugness, peace, etc etc...
Seeking out joy only makes you a slave just as much as if you were constantly seeking out illicit drugs, which would be much cheaper and less time consuming in the long run...
This springs to mind:
"PILGRIM-TALK
O thou that settest out upon The Path, false is the
Phantom that thou seekest. When thou hast it
hou shalt know all bitterness, thy teeth fixed in
the Sodom-Apple.
Thus hast thou been lured along That Path, whose
terror else had driven thee far away.
O thou that stridest upon the middle of The Path, no
phantoms mock thee. For the strideΒs sake thou
stridest.
Thus art thou lured along That Path, whose fascination
else had driven thee far away.
O thou that drawest toward the End of The Path,
effort is no more. Faster and faster dos thou fall;
thy weariness is changed into Ineffable Rest.
For there is not Thou upon That Path: thou hast
become The Way. " -
@kasper81 said
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That was my initial intolerant reaction, that the OP is anal and has too much time on his hands to be asking such a question. However I must admit , initial 3=8 vel jugorum instigates a sort of remarkable, wholesome, neurosomatic joy"I'd noticed that too, although for me it was something like the satisfaction brought about by the immediate results afforded by Jugorum. One thing I got that was probably less helpful but certainly revealing was the strangely addictive secret joy of sneaking of to cut myself when I'd said the forbidden word. It also gave me an insight into how people who cut themselves for psychological reasons get into the habit. Needless to say I use a rubber band these days
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@kasper81 said
"am not talking about repressed self-harm masochistic neuroses, but about the higher level of self-control"
You sure read a lot into that didn't you!?
For what it's worth I regard what you so kindly referred to as neurosis as a bi-product of practices undertaken that gave me a certain insight; hardly the resulting self-control, which came later I'll put it on a sliding scale for you; at the lowest manifestation we find the self-satisfaction of the neurotic, and at the upper end there is the joy of self-control. In my experience these two are not so unrelated as you might like to think.
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I'm not a 3=8, but I think there's a big difference between saying that there are more modern ways of doing a practice that have proven more effective, and saying that no one could possibly have gotten something useful out of a previous practice.
Also, every quality taken to extremes has a dark side. Self control has the dark side of neurotic over-controlling behavior (see also diseases like anorexia, which have a strong element of control involved, or the close inextricable presence of control.in BDSM practices).
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@Uni_Verse said
"There is joy in this aimless winging"
I was waiting for this to pop up. The content of the post reminded me of that chapter and so I considered if its messages had a place here. I decided not. It's my thinking that the language of LXV is speaking of specific inner operations and conflicts between different modes of the self seeking resolution/sublimation. Here I am talking about why one would tackle the A.'.A.'. system, and the flat experience of simple joy does not qualify to me as adequate motivation for undertaking the Great Work. A happy byproduct, amidst myriad difficult ones... Though the poster has yet to clarify if that's the case or only an aspect of what he's after so all this is all secondary.
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@kasper81 said
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@Archaeus said
"I'll put it on a sliding scale for you; at the lowest manifestation we find the self-satisfaction of the neurotic, and at the upper end there is the joy of self-control. In my experience these two are not so unrelated as you might like to think."I think I understand your point and I disagree.
We, me, Jim,others have been through this issue about the flawed, limited and obsolete practice of Crowley's self-punishing Jugorum practice"
Your not understanding my point.
I agree that the idea of cutting oneself seems obsolete, even barbaric to modern eyes. I have recently finished my second round of Jugorum, using the elastic band method which I'll be honest I found much less effective than the first round which I did during my Probation using a blade. This first round I file under 'understanding the nature and powers of my being' in that I certainly learned a lot about myself in that week, and I also gained considerable insight into why somebody might choose to cut themselves. (FYI once I had finished the practice I never felt the need to try it again, so it certainly wasn't the product of masochism)
But back on track: There is certainly a joy in the control aspect of Jugorum whichever method you use, although I found quite early on that this satisfaction only went as far as the intellect, but since by using the example of jugorum we are referring to Hod then that's quite alright
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@Avshalom Binyamin said
"I'm not a 3=8, but I think there's a big difference between saying that there are more modern ways of doing a practice that have proven more effective, and saying that no one could possibly have gotten something useful out of a previous practice."
Exactly that, I certainly got something useful and informative from the practice, albeit more as a side-effect. Self knowledge is always useful even if not particularly pretty.
"Also, every quality taken to extremes has a dark side. Self control has the dark side of neurotic over-controlling behavior (see also diseases like anorexia, which have a strong element of control involved, or the close inextricable presence of control.in BDSM practices)."
And this is the principle objection to Jugorum, that it can easily pander to the masochistic tendency and become an end in itself rather than a tool to further attainment, control for its own sake isn't healthy. This we what I meant by a sliding scale as far as control is concerned.
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@Macsen Melinydd said
""Degrees of Joy activation according to the grades".
Joy activation? Degrees? Why are you interested in measuring joy? And why are you interested in looking at that particular angle of the A.'.A.'. initiatory path? It gives me a bad feeling, like the system is being approached as merely a drug of sorts to induce different colors of "joy", like that's the whole point. Tell me that's a poor impression."I dont see it in such a way. But maybe it can be interesting for you observing yourself how seeing such in my words.
To answer you, for me the path is not even a choice, it just happens. Chosing to undertake or not the work is not a question, only thing i can do is accept. From this there is joy not imagined before, for sure, as well as many sufferings.
The "good" part is joy seems more and more stable and from core, whereas sufferings are getting more superficial. Because the identifications change in that way along the path.
It is tearing up the old person to unveil the new. Tearing hurts but joy awaits on the otherside.
Interesting though how suffering interacts with this. How much suffering is needed? I think it took me a lot in many ways and that now i'm beginning to "let go" any identifications and ways of consciousness that cause suffering, as far as i am conscious of(meaning it may happen again several times on higher planes).
By "letting go" i mean i take them as they are and as such let them go from where they came from, which is not me. As this is felt and not only thought, as the point of vue goes above that which is controlable by such thought and identifications mecanisms, i can now function in everyday life in "peace", which is maybe more accurate than "joy" at this point.
It is a real life changing experience as it strips off most identifications and thought mecanisms you were unconsciously dealing with.
I've just "awaken" today from a very special 30 hours plus long "dream" where all this got clearer. In this so long dream it was like everything i ever thought or experienced, even initiation itself, was put in front of the eternal and stripped off the illusions. Then only Nuit remained, and myself as a naked conscience.
Even the last two beliefs i thought unshakable were shaken. At one point i thought i was becoming mad. I screamed "no ! no way ! this cant be real ! noooo!!!" like my ego fought his last breath, and then i let it go as i felt i would either die or become mad if i didnt let go. It felt like the ego had nothing to grasp on anymore, it was very scary. This was half way. Then it felt like i became a storage device for the supernals and that i was "charged" with the eternal after having been stripped off the illusions.
Now it feels i'm hearing the great silence behind forms and words and that it attracts me more than anything alse. There is nothing more important than getting closer to this, or, more precisely letting it getting closer to me, as it seems to require more of a passive attitude towards it. The active part consists of keeping yourself attuned to a precise passive receptiveness.
So to sum up how it relates to Joy, i'd say now more than before there is Joy only in the eternal, and below it is sorrow. Because below is duality. But once you have "charged" enough of the above , attuned to it, and forgiven enough the below, so you can avoid identifications, you can "walk through the fire" without being burnt !
It is something very new and surpising, impressive, for me witnessing such power, simpleness and perfection from passivity. I used to challenge myself with "stupid" yoga games... one of them being performing stuff for 24hours straight. I did this for at least 7 different things, most of them exhausting. Something which had never crossed my mind though, was to do nothing for 24hours.
So, it finally happened by itself. Something interesting is i have a total blank part. There are maybe 8 hours missing completely of my memory. There i cannot say what happened. "nothing" is the only word that comes to the mind. Nothing !"i am what i am"