Thelemic Materialism (Thelemic Philosophy)
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In the threads that Los has graced the forum with his appearance and insight, I find an individual who can do nothing more but bait others for attention.
I wonder what sort of person this Los might actually be to spend so much of his time and energy trying to conjure some form of passive-aggressive attention from other members of the forum.
I'm not trying to instigate a fight, I'm simply pointing out what is painfully obvious.
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From what i remember it originally started with some member, cant recall his name he changed it every time he came in..
He'd become a part of Los's collective fan base, i recall a section on another site where he'd gone complaining to Los that 'they' had banned him.. whoever "they" were.
The Admin of this site hadnt banned him because he merely disagreed (as Los's presence here bears that out) but because he was becoming hysterical.
Actually before that Los had stated that this forum's membership mainly consists of a bunch of complete fruitcakes and he'd informed his readers that he'd never post here, he believes though that forum is great food for his stand up routine that he offers his readers.. he's quite an upbeat guy actually.
Meh, as far as i'm concerned he's ok.. until he starts using bad testimony and pseudo science and expects to get away with it, when caught out he regresses to juvenile tactics to draw attention to himself.. the conversation then becomes rather amateur at best. -
In my opinion Los has a blind spot the size of the Himalayas as to his own intention of being here.
What can be said for him is that he seems to be honestly convinced that he has found "the truth" about ontological materialism and the philosophy of thelema - while, again imo, he has not understood either perspective beyond some very basic and superficial foundations.
I get the picture of someone who is very lonely - even when in a crowd - and have found myself asking if he has Aspergers (nothing against people who have it, but it would fit his style) when looking at his copy-and-paste way of debating issues.
Concerning the passive-agressive attention seeking, I guess that is his intention. Subconsciously.
Regards,
Sychological Simon
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Come on, everybody posts for attention, no? Jesus. We're human. If we don't want responses, we can go write in a journal.
Attention is a basic biological and psychological need -- I'm glad the ubermensch (that doesn't need any attention) can let me know that oxytocin and vasopressin are terrible things...talk about a gaping hole in lack of self-realization AND epistemology rooted in materialism.
Attention-seeking seems to have negative connotations, when it is part of what makes us alive, human, animal, lovely, motivated, etc. Its value is probably best judged by the person seeking the emotional connection, if they care to examine themselves, and see what they take away from it and the effects it has on them. Also, it takes two to tango (sometimes more) - especially on the forum!
As far as the posts here -- I hate to break it to everyone, but Rush Limbaugh is an entertainer as well. And I don't think Rush takes himself that seriously. Whatever Los' motivations are, he's willing to put on that hat because some people find his brand of controversial opining extremely appealing. It's not like everybody is ignoring him...
Just look at the last three OT posts. They are leveled at Los' motivations...so it definitely seems like his posts are entertaining...so much that we see offerings aimed at his psychological and physiological constitution. To me, it's just as disturbing that people choose to profile someone's motivations with self-righteousness and extremely limited information.
THAT BOYS GOTTA DEMON I TELL YOU LETS GET EM.
Probably best to keep any psychological and physiological assessments about a given person confined to a clinical setting, and not just based on posts aimed at entertaining via the use of sensationalism and (sometimes) logical fallacies. I think Los' posts are wildly entertaining from a rhetorician's standpoint -- but, then again, I don't take rhetoric/semantic gymnastics personally or seriously.
How can I? I work in the public sector...
I think it's amazingly funny -- Los only seems to take the extreme divergent viewpoint when somebody else is just as passionate in the other direction. The world needs the skeptic as well as the idealist IMHO -- preferably in the same body...
Anyway, I apologize for the (mostly) OT post. I just abhor witchhunts -- probably has something to do with my opinion about Christist attitudes.
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Hi,
Can only answer for my own motivation ...
@Frater 639 said
"Come on, everybody posts for attention, no? Jesus. We're human. If we don't want responses, we can go write in a journal.
Attention is a basic biological and psychological need -- I'm glad the ubermensch (that doesn't need any attention) can let me know that oxytocin and vasopressin are terrible things...talk about a gaping hole in lack of self-realization AND epistemology rooted in materialism."
I did not mention critically that he wants attention and responses (I want that too or wouldn't, for example, post here
), but that he doesn't seem to be aware of his own motivations. Don't know if you have to be superhuman to observe something like that.@Frater 639 said
"Attention-seeking seems to have negative connotations, when it is part of what makes us alive, human, animal, lovely, motivated, etc. Its value is probably best judged by the person seeking the emotional connection, if they care to examine themselves, and see what they take away from it and the effects it has on them. Also, it takes two to tango (sometimes more) - especially on the forum!"
Actually, agreed.
@Frater 639 said
"Whatever Los' motivations are, he's willing to put on that hat because some people find his brand of controversial opining extremely appealing. It's not like everybody is ignoring him..."
I found his reasoning interesting, even fascinating, though not entertaining, at first, until he began to turn himself into knots and his answers started to seem a copy-and-paste job from the sceptic's manual to me ...
@Frater 639 said
"Just look at the last three OT posts. They are leveled at Los' motivations...so it definitely seems like his posts are entertaining...so much that we see offerings aimed at his psychological and physiological constitution. To me, it's just as disturbing that people choose to profile someone's motivations with self-righteousness and extremely limited information."
So you have now taken it upon yourself to profile the profilers based on self-righteousness and extremely limited information, that'll teach them?
@Frater 639 said
"THAT BOYS GOTTA DEMON I TELL YOU LETS GET EM."
Nah. I at least never did want a witchhunt on Los. Even defended him when some people suggested he was just trolling. And, reaction begets counter-reaction, and when Los gives, he will have to be ready to take some, too, no?
@Frater 639 said
"Probably best to keep any psychological and physiological assessments about a given person confined to a clinical setting, and not just based on posts aimed at entertaining via the use of sensationalism and (sometimes) logical fallacies. I think Los' posts are wildly entertaining from a rhetorician's standpoint -- but, then again, I don't take rhetoric/semantic gymnastics personally or seriously."
Well, it's not as if he would have gotten a DSM diagnosis by his critics now. Though, as said, I am getting a whiff of Aspergers. Which does not have to be a bad thing at all. Did you know Einstein has been suspected to have been one due to his brain structure (analysed when dead) and personal mannerisms (when alive)? So.
@Frater 639 said
"I think it's amazingly funny -- Los only seems to take the extreme divergent viewpoint when somebody else is just as passionate in the other direction. The world needs the skeptic as well as the idealist IMHO -- preferably in the same body..."
He just doesn't argue his point of view very well when looked under the hood. Perhaps I would want to be entertained better.
@Frater 639 said
"Anyway, I apologize for the (mostly) OT post."
Apology graziously accepted.
@Frater 639 said
"I just abhor witchhunts -- probably has something to do with my opinion about Christist attitudes."
Concerning the witchhunts, agreed, but no one is starting any as far as I can see.
I have not often in my life been accused (?) / been attributed (!) "Christist attitudes". Actually, that's a first
Well, OK, if it sticks ...Regards,
Tongue-in-cheek Simon
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@Simon Iff said
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@Frater 639 said
"Come on, everybody posts for attention, no? Jesus. We're human. If we don't want responses, we can go write in a journal.Attention is a basic biological and psychological need -- I'm glad the ubermensch (that doesn't need any attention) can let me know that oxytocin and vasopressin are terrible things...talk about a gaping hole in lack of self-realization AND epistemology rooted in materialism."
I did not mention critically that he wants attention and responses (I want that too or wouldn't, for example, post here ), but that he doesn't seem to be aware of his own motivations. Don't know if you have to be superhuman to observe something like that."Haha. But, actually, I think he is very aware of his motivations. I guess either one of them (aware vs. oblivious) is a judgment based on his actions from an online presence, no? A forum presence that seems to be aimed at controversy, etc. but has an underlying effect IMHO -- and an aspect of that effect is a display of how the intellect can be confounded using logic and rhetoric. Crowley talked about the same thing...
@Simon Iff said
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@Frater 639 said
"Whatever Los' motivations are, he's willing to put on that hat because some people find his brand of controversial opining extremely appealing. It's not like everybody is ignoring him..."
I found his reasoning interesting, even fascinating, though not entertaining, at first, until he started to turn himself into knots and his answers started to seem a copy-and-paste job from the sceptic's manual to me ..."I'm not debating the quality of the arguments, but the emotional reactions on all sides are entertaining - even after people apprehend the pattern of the content. You say fascinating, I say entertaining.
@Simon Iff said
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@Frater 639 said
" Just look at the last three OT posts. They are leveled at Los' motivations...so it definitely seems like his posts are entertaining...so much that we see offerings aimed at his psychological and physiological constitution. To me, it's just as disturbing that people choose to profile someone's motivations with self-righteousness and extremely limited information."
So you have now taken it upon yourself to profile the profilers based on self-righteousness and extremely limited information, that'll teach them? "Just to be clear, YOU are the one that leveled a DIRECT implication involving someone's psychological and physiological constitution (twice). My observation was in relation to* my reaction* to the general act of choosing to judge anyone from extremely limited information - and, honestly, self-righteousness isn't that bad, when taken in perspective.
We all profile, sure...we make assessments and compartmentalize...it's a great way to economize energy and, as you know, it's a part of our biology...but would I publicly post a pseudopsyche evalution about someone on the forum? Nope. Would I go further and seriously consider another's motivations, based on the evaluation? Nope.
If I did, I might publicly post about certain people's persecution anxiety and extrapolate the motivations for their reactions. Just kidding.
@Simon Iff said
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@Frater 639 said
"THAT BOYS GOTTA DEMON I TELL YOU LETS GET EM."
Nah. I at least never did want a witchhunt on Los. Even defended him when some people suggested he was just trolling. And, reaction begets counter-reaction, and when Los gives, he will have to be ready to take some, too, no?"Sure. And he does. But I've never seen him pretend to diagnose someone or insinuate they have an underlying behavioral condition...
@Simon Iff said
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@Frater 639 said
"Probably best to keep any psychological and physiological assessments about a given person confined to a clinical setting, and not just based on posts aimed at entertaining via the use of sensationalism and (sometimes) logical fallacies. I think Los' posts are wildly entertaining from a rhetorician's standpoint -- but, then again, I don't take rhetoric/semantic gymnastics personally or seriously."
Well, it's not as if he would have gotten a DSM diagnosis by his critics now. Though, as said, I am getting a whiff of Aspergers. Which does not have to be a bad thing at all. Did you know Einstein has been suspected to have been one due to his brain structure (analysed when dead) and personal mannerisms (when alive)? So."I'm getting a whiff of something else.
On the other point, I do think that "abnormal psychology" and some atypical brain structures are indicative of a type of evolution -- much of the medical community wants to box these conditions up and "treat" them. It could be argued it is because they don't fit in with our atavistic economic system and antiquated social contract. I think we're on the same page here...
@Simon Iff said
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@Frater 639 said
"I just abhor witchhunts -- probably has something to do with my opinion about Christist attitudes."
Concerning the witchhunts, agreed, but no one is starting any as far as I can see.I have not often in my life been accused (?) / been attributed (!) "Christist attitudes". Actually, that's a first Well, OK, if it sticks ..."I wasn't accusing YOU of anything. I was saying that what appears to be a witchhunt reminds me of people huddling together and persecuting others for unpopular opinions. That is the "Christist attitude" that I was referring to. If you don't have that attitude, then that statement does not apply to your behavior, right?
Simon, always a pleasure. I mean that sincerely.
Now, I'm afraid we're way OT...PM me if you want...or we can play dueling banjos all night (I'm pretty sure we both know the "not that!" game
). But, it won't change my opinion of you; which, for the record, is one of very high-esteem. Again, I mean that sincerely. Always enjoy your posts... -
meh.. he's ok.
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@Frater 639 said
"Simon, always a pleasure. I mean that sincerely.
Now, I'm afraid we're way OT...PM me if you want...or we can play dueling banjos all night (I'm pretty sure we both know the "not that!" game
). But, it won't change my opinion of you; which, for the record, is one of very high-esteem. Again, I mean that sincerely. Always enjoy your posts..."Hey, no hard feelings, I did mention tongue-in-cheek at the end
Cheers to you too, I am actually a confrontative person, have had to learn (with difficulty) to get along with people who have a need for harmony, and can be felt to come down harsher as intended due to me rarely saying "imo" - this goes without saying.
But, seeing as Los is a confrontative person too, he should be able to take it, and I actually value people's ability to confront (including Los's). If people play social games or do the silence act, I can much less with this than the other way around (I don't mean you, btw!) The latter shows hidden insecurity and hidden weakness to me. Los seems to be, at least, brutally honest as far as I mean to "get" him, if misguided in my eyes, and that is a rare quality in people.
Well, end of self-experiential session contribution.
Tongue-whereever-you-want-it,
Simon
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As ever, when supernaturalists cannot address the substance of my arguments, they become desperate to talk about anything else, and usually the easiest anything else to talk about are the wild fantasies that they evidently have about me.
In case anyone forgot, there's an interesting discussion to be had about whether all positions stem from axioms -- in the same sense of the word "axiom." The last part is what's important here. As I said above, I wouldn't deny that my engagements with the world, ever since I was born, started from the position that my senses connect me to reality, but as I argue above, I don't really see that as a choice, nor do I see it as indemonstrable.
Seen from that perspective, if you want to call it an "axiom," it's a very, very different kind of "axiom" than "Consciousness is the root of all" or "God exists." That is, I don't see those latter points as necessary or demonstrable in the slightest.
Feel free either to address the argument or to continue to have these bizarre fantasies about me. I'm sure the result will be entertaining either way.
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Senses = reality
Got it
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@Avshalom Binyamin said
"Got it"
You'll forgive me if I'm skeptical....
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supernaturalist.. me?
omg ive been found guilty by association
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Some dance to remember.http://www.e-tarocchi.com/crowley-thoth/images/swords2.jpgSome dance to forget.
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So many times, as I read what I read, I see others reducing this debate to the argument of two irreconcilable perspectives, which are seen in simple terms as the "spiritualist" versus the "materialist."
When it comes to my own place in it, this is not the correct reduction.
I don't argue against Materialism altogether. In fact, I have on more than one occasion pointed others to the work of IAO131, who describes himself as a naturalist. He has an excellent understanding of the gods and experiences of Thelema from a psychological perspective and has written many excellent articles.
I do disagree with him ...myself understanding the spiritual realm as both real and highly psychological in nature... but he doesn't go around saying that Thelema should be rid of all those who do come from a more "spiritualist" direction.
Since someone has shown up on the forum who does express the opinions that those who are more "spiritualist" in their perspective are "fruitcakes" and that Thelema is most properly understood as being against such "nonsense," I oppose him as I admit the weaknesses of my own argument and point to the unadmitted (or unknown) weaknesses of his own. Both perspectives have weaknesses. This is nothing new to me.
For me, this debate is not most properly reduced to "spiritualist" versus "materialist."
For me, this debate is most properly reduced to "inclusivist" versus "exclusivist."
I am not attempting to win a victory for my own more "spiritualist" perspective. I am attempting to prevent a strong, confident, rhetorical voice from convincing others that one perspective alone can and should be victorious.
Whether or not I should be concerned at all for the philosophical weaknesses of others is a question I constantly confront within myself. However, I ultimately must consider my own counsel alone in the area of whether and how I attempt to help whatever brothers and sisters may be behind me on this particular aspect of the path.
I cannot seem to resist the compulsion to ensure that they understand that there is no reason to be made to feel ashamed of the more "spiritualist" of their perspectives. At some point, however, I probably will have to excuse myself and leave them to learn directly from such a confrontation themselves.
93
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@Legis said
"So many times, as I read what I read, I see others reducing this debate to the argument of two irreconcilable perspectives, which are seen in simple terms as the "spiritualist" versus the "materialist."
When it comes to my own place in it, this is not the correct reduction.
I don't argue against Materialism altogether. In fact, I have on more than one occasion pointed others to the work of IAO131, who describes himself as a naturalist. He has an excellent understanding of the gods and experiences of Thelema from a psychological perspective and has written many excellent articles.
I do disagree with him ...myself understanding the spiritual realm as both real and highly psychological in nature... but he doesn't go around saying that Thelema should be rid of all those who do come from a more "spiritualist" direction.
Since someone has shown up on the forum who does express the opinions that those who are more "spiritualist" in their perspective are "fruitcakes" and that Thelema is most properly understood as being against such "nonsense," I oppose him as I admit the weaknesses of my own argument and point to the unadmitted (or unknown) weaknesses of his own. Both perspectives have weaknesses. This is nothing new to me.
For me, this debate is not most properly reduced to "spiritualist" versus "materialist."
For me, this debate is most properly reduced to "inclusivist" versus "exclusivist."
I am not attempting to win a victory for my own more "spiritualist" perspective. I am attempting to prevent a strong, confident, rhetorical voice from convincing others that one perspective alone can and should be victorious.
Whether or not I should be concerned at all for the philosophical weaknesses of others is a question I constantly confront within myself. However, I ultimately must consider my own counsel alone in the area of whether and how I attempt to help whatever brothers and sisters may be behind me on this particular aspect of the path.
I cannot seem to resist the compulsion to ensure that they understand that there is no reason to be made to feel ashamed of the more "spiritualist" of their perspectives. At some point, however, I probably will have to excuse myself and leave them to learn directly from such a confrontation themselves.
93"
Enjoyed many of the ideas presented in this post. Much of it echoes my own understanding. Thanks.
I find the rebuttal to both "sides" of this thread are captured quite succinctly in this passage from Liber 333:
@Crowley said
" CHINESE MUSIC
“Explain this happening!”
“It must have a ‘natural’ cause.”
“It must have a ‘supernatural’ cause.” >>>>>>>>>>>>> Let these two asses be set to grind corn.May, might, must, should, probably, may be, we may safely assume, ought, it is hardly questionable, almost certainly—poor hacks! let them be turned out to grass!
Proof is only possible in mathematics, and mathematics is only a matter of arbitrary conventions.
And yet doubt is a good servant but a bad master; a perfect mistress, but a nagging wife.
“White is white” is the lash of the overseer: “white is black” is the watchword of the slave. The Master takes no heed.
The Chinese cannot help thinking that the octave has 5 notes.
The more necessary anything appears to my mind, the more certain it is that I only assert a limitation.
I slept with Faith, and found a corpse in my arms on awaking; I drank and danced all night with Doubt, and found her a virgin in the morning.COMMENTARY (ΜΕ)
The title of this chapter is drawn from paragraph 7.
We now, for the first time, attack the question of doubt.
“The Soldier and the Hunchback” should be carefully studied in this connection. The attitude recommended is scepticism, but a scepticism under control. Doubt inhibits action, as much as faith binds it. All the best Popes have been Atheists, but perhaps the greatest of them once remarked, “Quantum nobis prodest haec fabula Christi”. ["How we are helped by this fable of Christ!"]
The ruler asserts facts as they are; the slave has therefore no option but to deny them passionately, in order to express his discontent. Hence such absurdities as “Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité”, “In God we trust”, and the like. Similarly we find people asserting today that woman is superior to man, and that all men are born equal.
The Master (in technical language, the Magus) does not concern himself with facts; he does not care whether a thing is true or not: he uses truth and falsehood indiscriminately, to serve his ends. Slaves consider him immoral, and preach against him in Hyde Park.
In paragraphs 7 and 8 we find a most important statement, a practical aspect of the fact that all truth is relative, and in the last paragraph we see how scepticism keeps the mind fresh, whereas faith dies in the very sleep that it induces."
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The 'materialists' are by proxy entangled.
Spiritualists soar to the sky!
Both have their place, are needed
It is the one who denies that liesWish I could find my Book of Lies
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@Uni_Verse said
"The 'materialists' are by proxy entangled.
Spiritualists soar to the sky!
Both have their place, are needed
It is the one who denies that liesWish I could find my Book of Lies
"hermetic.com/crowley/libers/lib333.html
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@Legis said
" I [...] point to the unadmitted (or unknown) weaknesses of [Los' argument]."
No, you don't. You baldly assert that my arguments have weaknesses -- just like that guy above baldly asserts that I have "blind spots" -- but you (like he) are never able to demonstrate that this is the case, in the same way that I (easily) demonstrate above that your arguments are laughably invalid.
"I am attempting to prevent a strong, confident, rhetorical voice from convincing others that one perspective alone can and should be victorious."
"Attempt" all you like. Call me when you can actually demonstrate your claims with anything more than bald assertion.
By the way, it's been way more than a dozen posts on this thread since I pointed to a specific topic of conversation -- the axiomatic basis of philosophical positions -- that we could pursue if you were actually interested. You're clearly not interested in having a serious conversation, since you've run shrieking away from real conversation, only to indulge in a kind of embarrassing bluster.