Heru-Ra-Ha, Ra-Hoor-Khuit, Hoor-Paar-Kraat, and Horus
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This is what you are 'expounding' lol
http://i.imgur.com/Fdp5aav.png
You also may try and upgrading your skepticism to it's proper place
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I have fun with this guy, I really do
Los
"When I’m explaining my position – and the position of substantially every materialist I’ve ever met – you can’t sensibly respond by telling me I’m wrong because my usage doesn’t line up to what some book says."
Lol - your usage does not even align with what Materialism says. It's not a matter (pardon the pun!) of some hot debate about what constitutes Materialism. It's a pretty clear understanding in philosophy and amongst materialists.
The problem with your usage in this thread is that
a.)it's contradicting to the actual tenets of materialism.
b.)Your definition of materialism is solely dependent upon defining what it does not believe, a rather odd way to define something. It's as if Thelema could be defined as a body of philosophy and religion that does not accept Jesus Christ as lord and savior. While true, it really doesn't tell us much of anything about Thelema that is not also true about Buddhists, or Hindus, or Raelians.
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@ldfriend56 said
"It's not a matter (pardon the pun!) of some hot debate about what constitutes Materialism. It's a pretty clear understanding in philosophy and amongst materialists."
Now that we have the definition nailed down:
Can we talk about this idea in light of the gods, as referenced by Crowley in Magick without Tears? Specifically, the ones mentioned in the OT...
@Crowley said
"We see and hear them, usually (in my own experience) as the result of specific invocation. Less frequently we know them through the sense of touch as well; sometimes their presence is associated with a particular perfume. (This, by the way, is very striking, since it has to overcome that of the incense.) I must very strongly insist, at this point, on the difference between "gods" and "angels." Gods are macrocosmic, as we microcosmic: an incarnated (materialised) God is just as much a person, an individual animal, as we are; as such, he appeals to all our senses exactly as if he were "material."
But everything sensible is matter in some state or other; how then are we to regard an Angel, complete with robes, weapons, and other impedimenta? (I have never known a god thus encumbered, when he has been "materialised" at all. Of course, the mere apparition of a God is subject to laws similar to those govering the visions of angels.)"
Specifically, what is Crowley saying when he says that Gods are "material?" That we can measure "gods" (like Horus) through physics and chemistry? Does that even sound plausible?
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@Frater 639 said
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@Crowley said
"I must very strongly insist, at this point, on the difference between "gods" and "angels." Gods are macrocosmic, as we microcosmic: an incarnated (materialised) God is just as much a person, an individual animal, as we are; as such, he appeals to all our senses exactly as if he were "material."""But everything sensible is matter in some state or other; how then are we to regard an Angel, complete with robes, weapons, and other impedimenta? (I have never known a god thus encumbered, when he has been "materialised" at all. Of course, the mere apparition of a God is subject to laws similar to those govering the visions of angels.)"
Specifically, what is Crowley saying when he says that Gods are "material?" That we can measure "gods" (like Horus) through physics and chemistry? Does that even sound plausible?"
I don't read it that way. He speaks of gods having incarnated - which seems to mean, born as humans - and as otherwise materialized - sounds like a very "dense" invocation that, bringing the God down the planes, gives it attributes of the lower planes - and he distinguishes it from a "mere apparition."
I'm responding on the fly, before heading out the door. I just wanted to distinguish those three elements in the quotes.
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@Jim - Frater69
Interesting, I never looked at this very deeply before this.
My take away is that Crowley referenced Gods as becoming material because human beings are gods (or at the very least the potential of gods) as our role of inheritance in the body of nuit to her service, i.e. human or human like sentience, intelligence, creativity, and most importantly intention (true will) is (edit: a maybe to me) the creative component and organizing principle of the material (time and space) universe.
Actually a nice conclusion, at least for me personally, to this discussion
Thank you once again, truly - this forum has proven to be remarkably helpful in my inner processing
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@ldfriend56 said
"@Jim - Frater69
Interesting, I never looked at this very deeply before this.
My take away is that Crowley referenced Gods as becoming material because human beings are gods (or at the very least the potential of gods) as our role of inheritance in the body of nuit to her service, i.e. human or human like sentience, intelligence, creativity, and most importantly intention (true will) is (edit: a maybe to me) the creative component and organizing principle of the material (time and space) universe.
Actually a nice conclusion, at least for me personally, to this discussion
Thank you once again, truly - this forum has proven to be remarkably helpful in my inner processing"
I appreciate the Frater 69. A nice Chariot reference -- I'm honored.
This is pretty close to what I take away from it. The gods are Us -- at least, the only vehicle we have to manifest these qualities on the material plane, while being able to write about it (a Work in progress). I truly believe this is what Crowley was trying to say when he wrote that passage.
Thank you for your contributions, oldfriend56. Always an absolute pleasure from the bottom of this heart.
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ha! funny it came out that way
So I guess coming full circle then, back to the actual topic of this thread.
I guess a few of us at least can conclude with the idea - the 'Gods' are, in material form, humans.
Ra - Hoor - Khuit & Hoor-Par-Kraat, being twins and conjoined, are universal down to every individual yet it also the 'Soul and Spirit' of the collective of humanity (their God State which we can call forth). This actually clarifies some of my previous work in this area.
Hmmm - nice to be able to summarize this so simply
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los = someone interested only in winning a debate.= learns new ways to gain the upper hand =will say anything to win said debate= is worthless to engage.
los also = someone with very very low level understanding of anything.low does not mean not of value just not to be regarded highly.
los-t?
in that pit
because because because! ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhahahahahahahaactive=lingam
passive/still=yoni
unoin=sexual congress of self
hpk=cup to be filled
rhk=sword/will to be expressed
heruraha=unspeakable being/ipsissimus
0=2 -
FWIW I think these thread about Thelemic 'Gods' be it the aspects of Horus, Had, Hadit, Nu, Nuit etc are important ones and though old ground is often covered, new ideas, however small or subtle, usually emerge. I know personally that my understanding and conceptualisation of these ideas has evolved hugely over the years and continues to do so. It would have been nice to keep this thread (and quite a few others for that matter) on topic instead of the whole materialism thing (again) and the infantile bickering (again). This stuff is important and it matters and this is one of the very few places I have ever come across where there is a huge potential for some very bright and dedicated people (and I include the people who's contributed to this thread) to help each other and help Thelema. If there is a 'meaning of life' it is service and I fail to see how putting someone down or trying to puff yourself up is being of service to anything. We are Brothers and Sisters and while the word of the Law is Thelema the importance of Love and particularly Agape cannot be understated. This post sounds a bit lovey dovey, new age hand holdy, which makes me a little uncomfortable as I am a Thelemite and it is Force and Fire of the new Aeon that pumps the blood through my body, but, as I said, FWIW
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Here is my drawing of Heru-Ra-Ha
It is based on ancient Egyptian art of composite, 2-headed gods.www.facebook.com/templeofthelema/photos/a.460279055138/10156176792060139/?type=3&theater