Impostures
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AoD, if we're talking specifically about the masculine persona, then strongly impressing the need for a male to present himself as independent can be a part of the problem.
Society says males should be independent, and this pressure affects boys no matter what is taught in a specific home. They bring it home with them. This is precisely the pressure that serves to create the persona with its hidden insecurity and guilt about any lack of independence.
I don't think anyone can prevent the creation of the social persona. The focus of development at the teenage level deals specifically with where and how we fit or do not fit into accepted roles in society, and every teenager goes through a process of choosing which group with which to identify, dress like, think like, listen to music like, play sports (or not) like, be smart (or not) like, etc.. That's just a normal, healthy stage of development where we learn how navigate social expectations.
I don't think the goal is to try to prevent this. I think the goal is to try to give a child the tools to ultimately transcend this stage (instead of getting stuck in it permanently) so that they may eventually become conscious of the difference between the expectations of society and their own individual way of being in the world - ultimately individuating toward their own Will, yet still having the tools for successfully navigating society's demands when necessary. I think the best you can do is try to create a home where acceptance and love are always communicated regardless of the pressures of society to conform to its expectations.
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Nature doesn't have opinions. Some people are more independent than others, and that's ok.
Trying to force everyone to measure themselves against a single masculine or feminine ideal is part of the problem, as Legis points out.
I don't think he's arguing against independence.
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@kasper81 said
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Nature and the Universe want males (and females| to be independent."Soo... nature becomes this entirely interdependent ecosystem where if even the bees all die off everyone is at risk? And this is meant to "want" independence?
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AoD would you mind posting the title of the book you're referencing? As Legis and Avshalom have suggested, the thesis that it seems to be suggesting appears to be a bit reductive to say the least. I'd be curious as to how the author came to hir thesis and whether or not it has statistical/experimental data to back it up. I suspect it's just a gendered generalization based on a specific (western) societal outlook.
That humans naturally create personas seems like solid ground. That all 3.5 billion male personas on the planet share an identical root basis, regardless of cultural differences and individuality seems like a stretch. "Every man and every woman is a star" applies to all points of consciousness, not just those that have accepted Thelema. While one can assume that the vast majority of the unenlightened fall into standard societal roles and thus would follow similar cultural programming (your "accurate representation of their Ego and mental emotional states of being"), that isn't the same as proving that there is a y-chromosome cause for that programming.
As for the star that chose to be your son (and, by extension, the other young boys that you work with), I'd say your best bet is to interact with him as the individual star that he his, learn as much about his true will as you can, and aid him to find the path towards it's accomplishment all the while remembering that it is he who has to actually do the work. The simple fact that he has a mother who is aware that her society turns most individuals into robotic automatons with emotional problems will almost naturally guarantee that, as he transitions into adulthood, he will not easily fall into the automatic life.
And, if he starts heading that way... smack him upside the head and set that boy straight.
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I'll be back later, just popped in share this.
www.amazon.com/For-Women-Only-Christian-Softcover/dp/1594151121/ref=tmm_pap_title_0
The book had very solid research, in in courage you to read the reviews as well. It was a fine book in many many ways.
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I wasn't saying anything about the book's arguments (having not read it).
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@Avshalom Binyamin said
"I wasn't saying anything about the book's arguments (having not read it)."
Sorry. I was on my phone and misread the earlier parts of the thread. I was actually reacting to Takamba's mention of gender expectations, not yours but, even so, they weren't referencing the book's arguments. In light of that, I'd like to retract my earlier references to other posters and just allow this to stand on my own reading of the OP. I'm about to check out the Amazon link. I'll post a follow-up if it sparks anything.
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@Gnosomai Emauton said
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@Avshalom Binyamin said
"I wasn't saying anything about the book's arguments (having not read it)."Sorry. I was on my phone and misread the earlier parts of the thread. I was actually reacting to Takamba's mention of gender expectations, not yours but, even so, they weren't referencing the book's arguments. In light of that, I'd like to retract my earlier references to other posters and just allow this to stand on my own reading of the OP. I'm about to check out the Amazon link. I'll post a follow-up if it sparks anything."
If you think I described "gender expectations," you read my post wrong. I was describe anti-gender expectations.
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Point # 1 - I have not read the book.
Point # 2 - I will admit to a certain prejudice against a book that publishes an endorsement by Jim Daly on its dust jacket. I would like to be big enough to look past that but that sort of endorsement suggests to me a certain lack of scientific rigor in favor of the accepted script that supports a hetero-normative nuclear Christian American family.That said, from what I was able to read in the preview, I see a few red flags right off the bat:
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As far as I can tell, all of her surveys and interviews were conducted with American men, yet she extends her conclusions to "almost every man on the planet" (p.3). She then supports this belief by citing the "million copies in twenty-two different languages" as proof of how "important and... universal" the truths are (p.5). To me, this suggests the high likelihood of a cultural bias to her data. The sales numbers merely suggest that there are a million women in the world who want to know what makes men tick, not that they necessarily found the answers in this book.
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"I'm focusing entirely on how women relate to men, not the other way around. (That is also why the personal-relationship surveys did not poll gay men.)" (p.11) - Not a great basis for determining what makes men tick per se. This seems to be leaning more and more towards an analysis of the male-female transaction specific to the parts that are often hidden to women in average American relationships.
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"When I say that 'most men' appear to think a certain way, realize that 'most' means exactly that - most, not all. You or your mate may actually find that you are more like the opposite sees in some areas. The key is to sincerely look for what matters most in your man." (p.12) - And again, this is making me more and more wary of her scientific analysis of the data and more confident that she conducted a bunch of surveys, some of them utilizing proper controls and methodology, and then relied on her own Christian family-focused book-selling intuition to interpret the data in a way that rings true to the average frustrated middle-class wife and gets her to start a conversation with "her man". That seems to be the key. Once the barriers to actual conversation are broken, a couple is likely to discover new truths about each other and the typical unscientific mind will attribute that to the catalyst: this book.
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She mentions in the introduction that the new edition cites research by "brain scientists" about how men think so I'd be curious to see what that is and what it has to say.
Again, I haven't read the entire book so I'm not ready to publish but I have a feeling that these initial reactions would likely hold up. Our author's Harvard Degree is in public policy and she's now a bestselling self-help author claiming scientific certitude of deep psychological truths of gender identity without a truly universal subject group. She also leans on her Christian community values and support structures and promotes her work mainly through those channels. She knows her audience and she know how to write to their insecurities.
This is not to say that there may not be some truths buried in her 8 points, but your own observations of men that fit her paradigm perfectly and men that perfectly contradict it fits more with my own experience and suggests that men, just like women, are wildly varied creatures. In this country (US) a vast majority have been domesticated into a very narrow definition of what it is to be a man. Those of us who live on the fringes get a much better view of the full spectrum
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@Takamba said
"If you think I described "gender expectations," you read my post wrong. I was describe anti-gender expectations."
This is the post I was referencing:
@Takamba said
"The main truth is not just about men, though - even women (some women) can fall into gender expectations of behavior."
But, like I said:
@Gnosomai Emauton said
"I'd like to retract my earlier references to other posters and just allow this to stand on my own reading of the OP."
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@Gnosomai Emauton said
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@Takamba said
"If you think I described "gender expectations," you read my post wrong. I was describe anti-gender expectations."This is the post I was referencing:
@Takamba said
"The main truth is not just about men, though - even women (some women) can fall into gender expectations of behavior."
But, like I said:
@Gnosomai Emauton said
"I'd like to retract my earlier references to other posters and just allow this to stand on my own reading of the OP."
""The main truth" I was discussing wash the OP's concept "The idea in the book was that men have a part of themselves, an aspect of how they relate I suppose, that in some way makes them feel like a fraud." The main truth is that both genders in some way feel like a fraud. I think you are wrapping your own issues into a discussion about authenticity of self - no need to read a specific book to be able to discuss that topic.
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I've tried to retract my read of others' posts twice and just rely on my own read of the issues brought up in the OP but you don't want to seem to let that lie so...
@Takamba said
""The main truth" I was discussing wash the OP's concept "The idea in the book was that men have a part of themselves, an aspect of how they relate I suppose, that in some way makes them feel like a fraud." The main truth is that both genders in some way feel like a fraud."
Fine. That's not really what you wrote in the first place, but it is a sensible and defensible position. As long as you acknowledge that it is a position. Just by calling it "the main truth" doesn't automatically make it so.
As I wrote in my original post:
@Gnosomai Emauton said
"As Legis and Avshalom ** have suggested, the thesis that it seems to be suggesting appears to be a bit reductive to say the least."
In other words, to suggest (as the book does) that men are genetically wired to feel like a fraud appears to be a bit reductive. Your explanation (which I could support) is that "both genders in some way feel like a fraud." My explanation is that nobody is hard-wired to feel like a fraud. Either way, the book's thesis is reductive.
@Takamba said
"I think you are wrapping your own issues into a discussion about authenticity of self - no need to read a specific book to be able to discuss that topic."
The OP was referencing a bit of research in a specific book that suggested that men are hardwired to feel like frauds. Her anecdotal experience made her question the veracity of that claim so she turned to the forum for a discussion of it's relative merits and possible extrapolations.
Your response addressed the second half - the universality and gender-specific nature of the idea. My response focused more on the first half - the scientific reliability of the research that made the claim in the first place. These seem to be complimentary positions.
What "issues" are you referring to that you think I'm wrapping this up in?
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@Takamba said
"Wow. Please read what I wrote and don't ever reply to me again."
Your initial post suggests first that women as well as men can fall into "gender expectations of behavior"
It then takes a left turn into a discussion of "Fear...[as] a point of inauthentic behavior," and a description of your own experiences of stage-fright at a podium and your attempts at authenticity.
The only reason I mentioned you at all was your first statement that both men and women fall into "gender expectations of behavior" in support of my point that these behaviors are not sexually hard-wired. In the post where I mentioned you, I clarified that, on second look, your quote was not a direct reference to any specifics presented in the book and so I asked to retract that reference to your statement but you decided to keep it afloat.
What in my response deserves this amount of blunt rudeness from you? You've bluntly told me that I misread your post (even though I've quoted it back to you verbatim twice now) and you've bluntly insinuated that my "issues" are getting in the way of discussing your "main truth". I've done what I can to be clear and concise. I even see us as on the same basic side of the issue, just coming at it from two different directions.
Why this unjustified attack?
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@Angel of Death said
"If what this book says is true and that men have a biological impulse to feel like an imposture in their core (which I would then speculate has a source in the regenerative, reproduction biological urges). Is there anything to be done about it? Is it some program running in the background that serves a higher purpose and should not be tampered with?"
Discussion/Opinion:
"biological impulse to feel like an imposter"? That not only doesn't make sense, it's unprovable. I don't care how many surveys the author passed out...
One could make a case from higher testosterone levels that men are more biologically driven to provide the benefits of aggression: home/family/asset defense. Which..., I don't care who you are or what your religion is, if you think that your home/family/assests are not constantly protected by threat of violence, then you're just naive. Doors are easier to kick in than you'd think.
Now, it's THIS harsh reality, rather than biological drive, that makes men (generally speaking) feel like they need to make a show of strength, even if it is ultimately not true - even if they don't know how to fight, or even if they don't think they could pull the trigger.
But like I said, it is the requirements of a harsh reality that have promoted the evolution of this biology, and not vice versa. Change the requirements of reality, and this particular biological trait (high testosterone) would evolve away, being deselected from the gene pool by women who generally find aggression distasteful - except that part of them feels they need it - "need a good, strong man to protect them." After all, the imposturing is also a function of mate selection and not just a defensive show.
As long as we're speaking in unpleasant, gender over-generalizations...
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@Gnosomai Emauton said
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@Takamba said
"Wow. Please read what I wrote and don't ever reply to me again."Your initial post suggests first that women as well as men can fall into "gender expectations of behavior"
It then takes a left turn into a discussion of "Fear...[as] a point of inauthentic behavior," and a description of your own experiences of stage-fright at a podium and your attempts at authenticity.
The only reason I mentioned you at all was your first statement that both men and women fall into "gender expectations of behavior" in support of my point that these behaviors are not sexually hard-wired. In the post where I mentioned you, I clarified that, on second look, your quote was not a direct reference to any specifics presented in the book and so I asked to retract that reference to your statement but you decided to keep it afloat.
What in my response deserves this amount of blunt rudeness from you? You've bluntly told me that I misread your post (even though I've quoted it back to you verbatim twice now) and you've bluntly insinuated that my "issues" are getting in the way of discussing your "main truth". I've done what I can to be clear and concise. I even see us as on the same basic side of the issue, just coming at it from two different directions.
Why this unjustified attack?"
I won't question your reading comprehension skills, so in lieu of that, I question your relationship to the topic (issues). The OP is not wanting a discussion about a book, the OP is wanting a discussion that a book she read gave her a train of thought about. She wrote specific QUOTE "Because I work closely with young boys I am interested in finding ways to keep them authentic, to bring out (keep out?) this clean clear honest way of relating to the world. " Then she wrote about how she wanted to have this as a discussion within a Thelemic framework. So I gave her my point of the discussion, which is ABOUT AUTHENTICITY and not the book, and I pointed out that both male and female individuals can get locked into false ideas of themselves due to gender role expectations. Then you wrote a post about how gender role expectations are wrong, or not something you agree with and so forth. I saw no harm in it, it matched my belief. Then someone said something to you and you said, and I paraphrase, "Oh, no, actually I was replying to Takamba." Well, you disagreed with me? That didn't make sense because your post, although not really seeming totally to fit the discussion that was evolving, but sounded like just a point of coming in late and saying "yeah, troof!" but your response when I said "You must have read me wrong" was to quote the post I made as if you couldn't have possibly read me wrong... then your language evolved to "fine" (ie "if you say so") and you said, when I described what i wrote "thats not what you wrote in the first place." Yes, yes it is. My original input was "both genders sometimes feel like they are frauds" and this is due to "gender expectations."
Now getting back to the topic of the thread, the idea that not only males, but also females, can feel like frauds because of gender expectations (males expected to be masculine, unafraid, etc; females to be empathetic, nurturing, etc) when such things could go against their "authentic selves" (which is situational and not set in any stone) is the only thing I felt I had to say in offer to this topic.
You did misread my original message, you seem to have admitted as much, there is no reason you should create an argument with me about it.
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@Avshalom Binyamin said
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From what I've noticed--and this may be purely cultural--women invest time talking about their experiences with other women in an accepting environment. This is important, as it gives them a chance to feel normal and accepted, flaws and all. Men tend to do this less often, and male company is often more about competition than acceptance. (Obviously individual experience is more relevant than gender here).It's important that we have good friends, mentors, and role-models. There are a lot of really unfortunate ones out there, and if we're in the situation of being desperate for attention, or lacking good options, we're liable to pick poor ones."
I did want to clarify that the book did not say men owned the market on this issue. The book was written to help women understand the minds of men, andnyes I would highly suspect that it is more likely a WASP mind or at least white American successful and product of the educational system (updated Wasp
).This point that AV brings out, about the social nature of women and our instinctual nature to nurture and support each other and communicate, communicate, communicate I think is a very important distinction to be made between what goes on in the psyche of a being who is immersed in this culture that wraps layers and layers of masks on us, restricting us from simply showing our own true self all the time.
As you all who know me, I have no problem stripping myself, right down to the buff and exposing myself for scrutiny. This imposture issue, being a fraud, seems like people contorting themselves into apparrel that doenst fit. If you ever see some fat person sporting skinny jeans and a halter, with the clothes literally scarring into the skin, that's what I think of these masks we have to wear.
I would say that The Great Work, is in a very real way a sort of personal fashion designer. Every body is special and unique, and not all look best in skinny jeans. Your HGA guides you to know that with your unique features, to not restrict and co tort and scar yourself in this world the mask that you choose to show is tailor made for you and not cookie cuttered.
But back to the issue Av brought out that I wanted to elaborate on, which is how humans go about drawing a social circle about themselves that is not one formed out of desperation, and will truly support and enhance a persons unique authentic self. Women have many more options for these sorts of cutover, but from my limited experiences, mens circles seem to perpetuate the gorilla mentality....the sports events, the golf course, bars, ect.
The popular social circles that are now in place seem to be ones that reinforce negative behaviors and choice making. I know there are great clubs and organizations that men can socialize at like Masons, and local community clubs like Rotary, Lion, Moose....yet even they seem lacking in the ability to let men relax and let there guard down and take off the facades.
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@Legis said
"AoD, if we're talking specifically about the masculine persona, then strongly impressing the need for a male to present himself as independent can be a part of the...
I don't think the goal is to try to prevent this. I think the goal is to try to give a child the tools to ultimately transcend this stage (instead of getting stuck in it permanently) so that they may eventually become conscious of the difference between the expectations of society and their own individual way of being in the world - ultimately individuating toward their own Will, yet still having the tools for successfully navigating society's demands when necessary. I think the best you can do is try to create a home where acceptance and love are always communicated regardless of the pressures of society to conform to its expectations."
excellent point.
One of the most important things for to teach children is the interconnectedness of all life. Environmental Geoscience should IMO be a cornerstone of early childhood development. In this I mean that, as you all know I'm sure, demonstrating to our little ones how each species on our planet in unique and serves a very distinct purpose and how the whole balance of life will get upset if something happens to this one species.
Showing children the benefits of a misquote, and fleas open the door to acceptance and love. If the world was only filled with butterflies, what a boring place it would be.....
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@kasper81 said
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@Legis said
"AoD, if we're talking specifically about the masculine persona, then strongly impressing the need for a male to present himself as independent can be a part of the problem.Society says males should be independent,."
Nature and the Universe want males (and females| to be independent."
I strongly disagree with this statement.
I personally view every single aspect of Nuit to be interdependent.
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@kasper81 said
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@Angel of Death said
", I live in a world with men so I should try to understand them, and I am the mother of a 12.5 year old who will someday be a man and I wish to empower his as best I can.
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To elaborate on my earlier point. You have said elsewhere that you are a self-confident woman. This is all you will need to empower your boy. Women who are lacking confidence will obsess and smother their son and the consequences are not pretty."
I wanted to reply to this point right now, because I do appreciate your willingness to engage.....
In relation to my original query about the concept that deep down men feel they are inauthentic, an imposture and that in order to empower a mutally satisfying relationship a woman needs to understand a man's deep desire to be be true to himself, to accept his insecurities and be as supportive as possible....
I completely trust that my son has the courage and strength to endure, love and accept his life, and his relationships with others. I have this trust because he has me in his life and blood, and I am not simply slf confident. I am, in your face, real, raw, unbridled and blissful. I am so true to my nature that I make people uncomfortable, and I don't care.
This issue of feeling like an imposture, to me goes hand in hand with Thelema, which is right action. I am interested in practical ways to bring to life Thelema, to my Sisters and Brothers in this world. Even though this book had brief moments of religiousness, it was a fantastic read, filled with truth that I think many women should know about.
This book was a relationship guide, for lovers yet I easily see who the ideas relate to Brothers and fathers and sons as well, and for me, To understand a man POV, helps me enjoy my own life even more.