How to respond to Crowley-bashers?
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I've been running into pagans/magicians/wiccans who hate Crowley and dismiss all of his work because of some of his personal behavior.
How do you respond to this?
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The same way I respond to any hater...
Do What Thou Wilt......
It's not my job to convert or change anyone, I got my own stuff to take of.
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What a disappointing conversation-stopper!
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Oh, sorry.....
When I encounter hatred in life I make one of two assessments,
What is the likelihood of me being able to round house clock em upside the head and knock some sence into them with my smooth ninja moves.....Or not.
I'm pretty good at being a ninja, but it seems that no matter how hard I crack em upside the head, they still get up as ignorant as ever.
How have you been responding?
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@AliceKnewI said
"How do you respond to this?"
With success.
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@AliceKnewI said
"I've been running into pagans/magicians/wiccans who hate Crowley and dismiss all of his work because of some of his personal behavior.
How do you respond to this?
"I discuss the personal behaviors of Bill Clinton, John Lennon, JFK, Marilyn Monroe, Gerald Gardner, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, and any other "hero" they prefer (including Kasper81 and his prescription regimen); and then I hand them a stone.
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I usually shoot smack and have sex with them.
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Personally, I agree with the first answer. I nearly always ignore them. Or, if they're openly trying to pick an argument, I give a conversation-stopping answer such as: Shrug, say either that they don't have their facts right or (depending on my mood in the moment) that they are confusing the author with the work, and then - this is important! - I walk away.
'Cause here's the main point: If someone isn't interested in listening and being changed, then there is no conversation to have. Most people saying this sort of thing aren't ready to learn anything, they're interested in making a statement and not having it contradicted. Until they are (implicitly or explicitly) inviting input from you, you will be wasting your time and looking needy and pathetic. However, if there is a small part of them actually wanting to hear something, then walking away usually draws that out (if anything is going to).
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Actually the couple times it's come up recently, the person had no idea that I study Thelema; we are at an event at the local occult bookshop and she just brought it up out of the blue: what an evil man Crowley was, he treated women badly, she won't have anything to do with thelema, etc. I said "That's a bit simplistic." or something to that effect, and then the host of the meeting diverted the discussion in a different direction, which I appreciated. I wasn't needing to start a big battle, but I didn't feel right sitting there not saying anything at all.
I kinda wish I had something cool and witty to say.
The other person was a facebook acquaintance, and I did "walk away" figuratively speaking, I shut off notifications from her, without getting into any discussion. She wasn't addressing her remarks to me, they were just on her wall, and I knew it would just be one of those stupid facebook fights that go nowhere, so I shut her off and withdrew.
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Try these:
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Oh, they were uptight in Edwardian times. Today he'd seem like most of my friends.
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Isn't it wonderful how far we've come? In his day her got crap from people for being such a feminist.
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(This one is from Marion.) Wow, so it's not just the Christian Right that has uptight moralistic bigots!
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@Jim Eshelman said
"1. Oh, they were uptight in Edwardian times. Today he'd seem like most of my friends."
Comparatively speaking I am a bigger asshole than Crowley ever was, yet most people consider me a prety nice guy
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Most people with a casual opinion about Crowley only know what was said about him by the gutter press, or authors who were intentionally assasinating his character. They probably don't realise that this is where their information has come from so maybe bring it to their attention. Ask them why as a Pagan or occultist they are swallowing nonesense from the Christian Right elements in the press.
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You could always ask them why they feel the way they do about it him.
I think a more interesting question to engage in would be what bothers you about people who are Crowley bashers
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I don't know anyone who doesn't have depraved, selfish, immature, hypocritical aspects in their personality.
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I resemble that remark!
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That's half of what I love about you, Jim.
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Crowley has the desired effect, they're just not paying attention to themselves
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Bite them in the neck!
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I don't think Crowley would have really cared at all so if they're trying to attack his character it doesn't really matter. If they're attacking the practices that you want to talk about then you can talk about the practices and Crowley doesn't have to come into it.
I found this really cool essay on him by Phil Hine in Prime Chaos:
"Madness and suicide trailed in his wake. Scandal dogged his footsteps, yet he was not dragged down by the failures of his fellows. His modern-day admirers seek to explain his contradictions and justify his acts of moral outrage. Yet Crowley was interested in neither explanations or justifications. The fact of his existence was enough. With the absorption of a child playing his own game, the rules known only to himself, he wandered the world, immune to disaster and oblivious to the possibility of failure."
The rest of the essay starts on p. 28 (zalbarath666.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/phil-hine-prime-chaos.pdf), I found it really well-written and just fucking cool.
"At no point does he seem to be saying "this isn't the real me." He does not argue his position or distance himself from his life, he presents himself with a matter-of-factness which both attracts and repels."
I think Regardie said he considered Crowley an avatar of Pan. You can't argue with Pan, he is what he is.
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On this general note, a few days ago I got into a conversation with a kindly old gentleman while perusing this forum in a cafe I frequent in godforsaken Agoura Hills. We were chatting about this and that and he asked what I was doing on the computer. At a loss for words, I made a mistake I usually don't make and I told him the truth, phrasing it thus: I am conversing on an internet forum that has to do with the Occult, or more specifically "Scientific Illuminism." I talked about how this included yoga, meditation, personal development, and so forth, and how the word "Occult," merely meant "hidden." At this point his soft, rheumy blue eyes started a bit, and he went back to his own table. Returning with a look of concern, he asked if I had ever read the Bible. I laughed heartily (turning a few heads) and proceeded to explain that my mother had made me write out the Book of Proverbs a number of times in my youth. I proceeded to let off a few bits of Bible History that would have rattled a seminary student. I explained further that I thought all religions and systems of thought had something to teach us, from Hinduism to Rastafarianism to whatever. He didn't quite agree with this, but we proceeded to have a genial conversation anyways, turning to other things.
I have had hour-long conversations with Irish priests in convertibles about the merits of comparative religion, and I've been denounced in public as a Heathen for reading "The Book of Thoth." I react always with candor, bemusement, and on rare occasion, pure, undiluted wrath.