Thelemic Pantheon
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@sasha said
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@Jim Eshelman said
"I disagree that the Babalon archetype discriminates at all - Her essential nature is to receive all."You mention archetypes. Does this mean that you refer to Babalon in a manner separate from Binah or its position above the abyss?"
No, nothing like that was meant. (In fact, quite the contrary is implied by the word "archetype"
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@Jim Eshelman said
"No, nothing like that was meant. (In fact, quite the contrary is implied by the word "archetype"
)"I should have said, "refer to Babalon in a manner BROADER THAN as a correspondance with Binah and relation to her position above the abyss". Though I don't know if that makes a difference to your response, Jim - though it does for Dshoemaker's.
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@sasha said
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@Jim Eshelman said
"No, nothing like that was meant. (In fact, quite the contrary is implied by the word "archetype" )"I should have said, "refer to Babalon in a manner BROADER THAN as a correspondance with Binah and relation to her position above the abyss". Though I don't know if that makes a difference to your response, Jim - though it does for Dshoemaker's."
I still think that the answer is the same I gave... though I must admit that, all of a sudden, I'm not at all sure I know what you are saying on this point. (For example, plugging in what I think you're saying doesn't make any difference in how I read David's answer.)
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93,
I'm lost, too. Are we being over-specific here?
Binah is the principal point of contact for Babalon - I think that's clear. Much of her symbolism is Binah-ic; she is supra-rational, being of Understanding, rather than a concept that can be neatly summarised within intellectual categories.
But there are also valid reasons for assigning her to Netzach (her seven-pointed star being one) and Malkuth (which is exalted to sit upon the throne of Binah, and is also the place of manifestation of the Shekinah). She gets around, as Whores do.
I think there's also some confusion over the term 'archetype'. in Thelemic Qabalah, we tend to use this term as a synonym for what is indicated or hinted at by the magical image of each sephirah - a Child or King in Tiphereth, a Warrior in Geburah, etc.
But archetypes tend to be 'wild cards' - they work within certain rules determined by their primary characteristics, but those are the archetypes' rules, not 'ours'. At least, they're not the rules of the realms of Assiah/manifestation and Yetzirah/formation where we humans hang out in our conscious or near-conscious lives.
I also recall an interesting discussion on Evalna once about the different conceptions of archetypes according to Qabalists, and according to Jung.
I have to wonder if Babalon, or Chaos, or any of 'The Pantheon Gang' are really as sephirothically constrained as we seem to be saying.
93 93/93,
Edward
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@Edward Mason said
"But there are also valid reasons for assigning her to Netzach (her seven-pointed star being one) and Malkuth (which is exalted to sit upon the throne of Binah, and is also the place of manifestation of the Shekinah)."
Without arguing against any of the aboe, let me mention that the 7-pointed star is also specifically a Binah symbol, and that (from The Vision & the Voice) there is a daughter of Babalon that fits better. (On the other hand, for most purposes Babalon is indistinguishable from Shakti and Shekinah, and Shekinah has the higher/lower Binah/Malkuth thing and... etc., as you said.)
"I think there's also some confusion over the term 'archetype'. in Thelemic Qabalah, we tend to use this term as a synonym for what is indicated or hinted at by the magical image of each sephirah"
"Indicated or hinted at by the magical image." I like that. It's the backdoor approach to the way I usually define it, viz., that an archetype is a root idea Itranscendant to the Yetziratic level) which has the capacity to generate symbols to express it. I think that "capacity to create symbols" idea is the main point - no symbol itself is an archetype.
To put it another way: Words are the language units of the Ruach. Symbols are the language units of Nephesh (subconsciousness actually reads symbols as directly as ego-consciousness reads words). Archetypes are the language units of Neshemah.
"those are the archetypes' rules, not 'ours'. At least, they're not the rules of the realms of Assiah/manifestation and Yetzirah/formation where we humans hang out in our conscious or near-conscious lives."
Right, because those things are simply individual expressions (nearly inferences) of (some aspect of) the archetype.
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@dshoemaker said
"In one method of attributing the sephiroth to the Four Worlds, Chokmah and Binah are in the World of Briah. This is quite explicitly the realm of the "archetypes". So, there is no conflict in simultaneously seeing Babalon as an archetype, as well as a "trans-Abyss" concept."
I thought Atziluth, rather than Briah, was the Archetypal World. Have I got that wrong, or are you employing a different meaning?
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@zeph said
"I thought Atziluth, rather than Briah, was the Archetypal World. Have I got that wrong, or are you employing a different meaning?"
Atziluth is called the "archetypal world" by Qabalists - all of whom are pre-Jung or copying those that are pre-Jung.
But "archetype," as it has come to be used over the last seven decades or so as a consequence of Jung, doesn't refer to an Atziluthic level but, rather, to a Briatic one.
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Coming back to this general topic: am I the only person around who has had trouble accepting Ra Hoor Khuit?<p>
He emerges from the most difficult of the Book of the Law's three chapters, and then proceeds to tell us a whole load of apparently nasty stuff. Yes, I appreciate this Chapter has levels of meaning, and some of those have gradually become clearer to me with time. But his role as Master of Revolutionary Upheaval makes him not exactly .... cuddly. If I'm confused or unsure what to do, he might help me see through the confusion, but there is nothing (that I see) that addresses the initial state of fear around (or perhaps causing) my confusion.<p>
Realigning (or un-crushing) an Universe is worthy work, but it seems to call for a complete commitment before we can get any real understanding of what we've committed to.Edward
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@Edward Mason said
"He emerges from the most difficult of the Book of the Law's three chapters,"
I used to think so... but, on close reading, Chapter II seems much nastier to me. That's the "kick the homeless in the teeth when they ask for spare change" chapter, for example
"But his role as Master of Revolutionary Upheaval makes him not exactly .... cuddly."
Hoor-paar-kraat fills that role much better, I think. The two halves of Heru-Ra-Ha do serve different roles.
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JAE, 93,
I see your point about the Second Chapter - it can seem cold and disdainful - though it doesn't embrace the warlike symbolism the way Chapter III does.
Hoor-Paar-Kraat... cuddly...? Well, I admit I've never tried snuggling up to him...
But then, I've never really seen him in this role. He seems more a dark, silent embrace than a hug - a place of temporary safety, perhaps?
I think what I'm trying to say here is that I've always felt that Thelema shuts us out when we feel tired, weak, dispirited or just unsure. It's only 'there' for us when we are energised, confident, or alert. I personally can't be like that all the time.
I'm not disparaging confidence energy, etc. If so, Chapter II ('pity not the fallen') would tell me I'm out of the game anyway. But at times it seems as if we have to become Thelemites <i>despite</i> what the Book says: that it offers us minimal help in reaching the threshold of what it reveals.93 93/93,
Edward
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@Edward Mason said
"Hoor-Paar-Kraat... cuddly...? Well, I admit I've never tried snuggling up to him...
But then, I've never really seen him in this role. He seems more a dark, silent embrace than a hug - a place of temporary safety, perhaps?"I credit him with every aspect of the Child archetype. He's the golden solar child with a broad smile and open arms, and He's the the Christ child and infant Gautama and every other high-calibre Divine Child idea there is.
He's the Child whose aeon this is
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JAE, 93,
Maybe I'm hung up on the "Ra Hoor Khuit is the active part, Hoor Paar Kraat is the passive part" idea. Passive aspects don't hug you, in my own view of things. They just sorta look at you.
I'm trying to relate the idea of Silence, which is a very real idea for me, with childlike behaviour. Silence isn't cold or hostile for me - I find it welcoming, and I welcome it. But I've never really seen or imagined it as a form of 'hugging,' except in a rather distant or 'metaphysical' (non-physical, unemotional) way.93 93/93,
Edward
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Nuit is the experience of not being separate from anything else which
is basically Monism, i.e. Agape.Hadit is the experience of being separate from everything else with
Unique purpose, i.e. Thelema.Ra Hoor Khuit, their Child, is the Consiousness of being Itself and Nuit
and Hadit at the very same time which opens up a whole new Universe
of Expression that was never before possible.Nuit --- Hadit --- Ra Hoor Khuit!
Agape=Thelema=93=418.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Hoor-paar-kraat fills that role much better, I think. The two halves of Heru-Ra-Ha do serve different roles."
I've never been completely clear on this dual aspect of Heru-Ra-Ha beyond the active/passive nature. I seem to remember Jim saying that Hoor-paar-kraat is the feminine side of Heru-Ra-Ha. But how can that be if Hoor-paar-kraat is Hadit?
Where does HPK fit in the IHVH formula? Yod or Heh final? Or is it an aspect of Vau?
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@Her said
"I've never been completely clear on this dual aspect of Heru-Ra-Ha beyond the active/passive nature. I seem to remember Jim saying that Hoor-paar-kraat is the feminine side of Heru-Ra-Ha. But how can that be if Hoor-paar-kraat is Hadit?"
Hadit is quoted as saying, "Who worshipped Heru-pa-kraath have worshipped me..." Is this the same as saying Hadit is HPK? I've never been sure that it is.
To me it says something more like, "Who has worshipped * Silence has known me [Hadit]." (Or, in another sense, acknowledging that, in different ways, they can each serve as a symbol of Kether.)
"Where does HPK fit in the IHVH formula? Yod or Heh final? Or is it an aspect of Vau?"
Several ways to look at it, including the second half of Vav - but as the negative phase of the child, if you are busy populating YHVH, then the suitable attribution would be Heh-final.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Hadit is quoted as saying, "Who worshipped Heru-pa-kraath have worshipped me..." Is this the same as saying Hadit is HPK? I've never been sure that it is."
How about 2:49 were Hadit clearly identifies himself as "a babe in an egg." In his commentary on this verse Crowley states that this symbolism is classic HPK. It's quite clear that an common identity between the two gods is being pointed at, but to what end? In many respects Hadit and HPK seem to be identical. Both are concealed and hidden. Both are unknown and unmanifest? Why the double duty?
Is HPK a lower analogue of Hadit?
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Yup, classic HPK. And yes, identity, but perhaps not identity in the same sense as in Assiah; e.g., in the sense that Nuit and Hadit also share identity. The common terms show similarity of characteristics.
But you can't reduce that to mathematical formulae in the same way that you can people in Assiah. E.g., the syllogism would fail (however logical) to argue Hadit = HPK, HPK is half of Heru-Ra-Ha, therefore Hadit is half of Heru-Ra-Ha.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"I disagree that the Babalon archetype discriminates at all - Her essential nature is to receive all"
Yes, she receives all, but discriminates a lot about the devotion asked in return.
Babalon is the supreme, the more woman of all women; and, for any woman, there are only three types of persons: the one who gives her money to be received by her (trick, or john), the one she receives to have fun and with whom she spends money (gigolo), the one she receives because she's in love with him and to whom she gives money (pimp).
The spiritual analogy with the general "attitude of Life" towards the vulgar, the aristocrat and the initiate, or with the tasks of men of earth, lovers and hermits, is quite evident... -
Merlin the Sorcerer wrote:
"for any woman, there are only three types of persons: the one who gives her money to be received by her (trick, or john), the one she receives to have fun and with whom she spends money (gigolo), the one she receives because she's in love with him and to whom she gives money (pimp)."
May we take it then that the only ways you yourself ever relate to women are (1) when you pay for sex; (2) when you agree to split the costs but not offer to pay everything yourself, and (3) when you take money off women?
Edward
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Not really : as you know, what you are writing is the qlipothic degenerescence (the excrement) of what I was trying to explain, but it's fun.
In fact, I was only using the general "whore" imagery. Just an analogy; but, of course, had I known that raw womanhood was making you nervous, I would have taken salt, water and bread; or salt, mercury and sulphur; or Mem, Aleph and Shin; or Nephesh, Ruach and Supernals; or Animal, Human and Divine; or Black, Red and White; or Niflheim, Mitgard, Asgard; etc, etc, etc.
Nevertheless, ifever you have ever been to a restaurant with a girl friend, you know that there are only three ways to have the bill paid.