Ye shall gather store of women .
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@Labyrinthus said
"Men and women are very different creatures. One report tells us that the male human has more genetic similarity to a male gorilla than he does the female human.
"I just don't agree with you on that. The line is so arbitrary and artificial.
"I think the political correctness about what it is okay to say about the female has gotten ridiculous. How is it misogynistic to observe a group of moody women and say those are moody women. Answer: It isn't (misogyny)."
I agree. But it would be if you generalized that to all or most women. (I think I gave my own example recently: Walking through Harlem for the first time, I noticed [no surprise] that nearly everyone on the street was Black. But, in some circles, my observing that out loud would be met with a frown or tongue-lashing for my insensitivity. That's nuts.)
"The Age of Stupidity that started in the 1960's and spawned groups like NOW is coming to an end."
Yup, back to disagreeing with you, since I hold most of what emerged from the '60s (and NOW in particular) in very high regard.
"Why is it okay for women to generalize about the negative side of the male all day long but when men comment accurately about some negative characteristic of the female population in general it is misogyny?"
The words that fall short, and therefore become technically bigoted, are "female population in general." It's the generalization that is offensive (and usually grossly inaccurate).
"One of my sisters is a definite casualty of that era. She went into academia and chose the career path and did cancer research all her life. Now at 60 she looks back and says, "I wish I had gotten married and had kids".
"And, who knows, if it had gone the other way she might have looked back and said, "I wish I'd done that cancer research I'd wanted."
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@Jim Eshelman said
"And, who knows, if it had gone the other way she might have looked back and said, "I wish I'd done that cancer research I'd wanted.""
She probably would have. I still think she would have been MUCH happier as a mom and she does too.
She now realizes the fact that she has a uterus and it is a more compelling reality to her than some contrived career path.@Jim Eshelman said
"The words that fall short, and therefore become technically bigoted, are "female population in general." It's the generalization that is offensive (and usually grossly inaccurate)."
Nope. There is nothing bigoted about making a generalization. Accurate generalizations can be made. It is only offensive or seems inaccurate to those in denial. Inaccurate ones can be made too. But to label all generalizations as bigoted is illogical.
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@Froclown said
"
Also I am basing what I have said here off of my own experiences with several women who are diagnosed Bipolar.
"well that's a biased opinion if I ever saw one.
You don't need to summon devils, they are always calling you, all you need to do is step down and fraternise with them on their level, (and by devils i don't mean women, more like disordered nephesh). -
@Labyrinthus said
"Nope. There is nothing bigoted about making a generalization. Accurate generalizations can be made. It is only offensive or seems inaccurate to those in denial. Inaccurate ones can be made too. But to label all generalizations as bigoted is illogical."
Agreed with the first sentence as written. It's not in the making of the generalization, but in its application to those outside of the original observation group, that the problem lies.
The basic nature of bigotry, its defining characteristic, is the presumptive applying to Person X characterizations that may or may not be true of X, but are believed to be true of some set that shares some other characteristic of X. That is, it leads to enthymemes.
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"Why is it okay for women to generalize about the negative side of the male all day long but when men comment accurately about some negative characteristic of the female population in general it is misogyny?"
I dont think it is ok at all, but it seems as if the culture we are immersed in leaves people feeling inadequit and that they need to lift them selves up ( so to speak) by knocking others down. Negative characterization and generalizations tend to do exemptlify this, and IME are not signs of balance and harmony, but usually indicate some sort of dis-ease.
I know from my personal trials that I have made false generalizations, and not just about sexy things. I am always grateful when I am brought to attention to this. I remove myself from situations and people that make sweeping generalizations.
I do dare say as well, that since this worlds reality is heavily male influenced and run, most women do not DARE say anything negatively about men at all. The ones who do dare to challenge the status quo are usually attacked and run out of dodge-so to speak.
I do not think that anyone should have to negatively characterize anyone, sex, age, race, species at all...IMO it only reflects negatively on the one doing it in the first place.....But of course....Your milage may vary....
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93
A blanket statement is exactly that, a blanket, something to comfort a child or cover up something you don't want to look at too closely.
It takes courage and clarity to take everything as a thing in itself, indivisible, and see it/him/her for what they are, without the lenses of social conditioning, Freudian phantasm to distort it.93 93/93
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@Jim Eshelman said
"The basic nature of bigotry, its defining characteristic, is the presumptive applying to Person X characterizations that may or may not be true of X, but are believed to be true of some set that shares some other characteristic of X. That is, it leads to enthymemes."
Well, now you are simply talking about bigotry by itself which is beside the point.
Enthymemes happen. Not much to be done about the fact that sometimes one thing will lead to another. Driving a car can lead to negative outcomes that are not possible if one never got into a car in the first place. Yet, despite possible negative outcomes most people still choose to drive.
Generalizations may not be as useful as a car but they can serve a purpose.
Cops use these all the time. They know most serial killers are white males. Pretty negative thing too. (Is that bigotry?)
Heh. I just thought of further uses... but that is also politicized and this is drifting enough already.
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In general, most generalizations a flawed.
And most people aren't like most people anyway.
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@Veronica said
"most women do not DARE say anything negatively about men at all. The ones who do dare to challenge the status quo are usually attacked and run out of dodge-so to speak.
"Say WHAT!?
No way that is even a little bit true. There is even a name for this once near chronic behavior -- "man-bashing". It was so bad that it became a joke of a caricature in itself.
Here's a good one;
*Man Bashing - Funplex > Gender. ... The man bashing will stop when you men
figure out how to treat women with the respect and common courtesy we deserve! **
*I don't know what universe you live in but in my world women challenge the status quo all the time with no undo negative consequences whatsoever.
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Having spent a fair amount of time in the middle east, (and Yorkshire
) I'm inclined to agree with Veronica.
IN many parts of the world women are indeed treated like slaves, kept out of sight or covered up so that men do not have to deal with there own sexuality. -
@Jim Eshelman said
"In general, most generalizations a flawed.
And most people aren't like most people anyway."
What does that mean? Sounds just plain wrong. Otherwise well crafted generalizations can appear to be flawed when they are expected to be something they are not. To point out how the generalization fails to account for an individual characteristic is like saying an apple is not a watermelon. Senseless.
No one is saying that everyone is the same. Why state the irrelevant obvious? To obfuscate, if you ask me.
The neurotic aversion to something as simple as a 'generalization' among liberals is something to behold. This sort of logic and discourse is why Savage has concluded that Liberalism is a mental disorder, and Denis Prager calls the psychology/philosophy emerging on the Left from the sixties "The Age of Stupidity"
Simple, obvious observations are falsely labeled in a negative light (words like bigot are used) because it is politically incorrect. Jim, you are averse to most political correctness but in this matter you have succumbed.
Men and Women are VERY different. Genetically, chemically, hormonally, ==> temperament, behavior.... It may be politically incorrect, but its true. Half a century of Leftist denial hasn't changed that.
I highly recommend folks tune into Prager's male-female hour. You might learn something.
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@Labyrinthus said
"
@Jim Eshelman said
"In general, most generalizations a flawed.And most people aren't like most people anyway."
What does that mean? Sounds just plain wrong."
It's a self-busting commentary on the strengths and weaknesses of generalizations.
"Otherwise well crafted generalizations can appear to be flawed when they are expected to be something they are not."
If you don't qualify them when stating them, then they come across as absolute, invariable statements. Yes, you have to use language better, saing things like, "More often than not," and "In cases I've seen," etc. Otherwise, they are nearly always factually wrong.
"To point out how the generalization fails to account for an individual characteristic is like saying an apple is not a watermelon. Senseless."
Wrong. It's good use of language.
You can't say, "People named Labyrinthus have green hair" and have it be a right unless you've done a 100% survey. You can, however, say, "Anyone I've ever known named Labyrinthus has had green hair," or some other qualifying remark - that returns it to a statement of your experience.
"\The neurotic aversion to something as simple as a 'generalization' among liberals is something to behold."
They do tend to be the foundation of a lot of bigotry, not to mention simply wrong information. (I tend to give conservatives the benefit the doubt and assume that their greater tendency to flat statements is a result of poorer education and bad rearing, rather than diminished mental capacity or moral corruption.)
It's just intellectually and linguistically sloppy! That's why I categorize it as an education issue. If I were grading an English paper, I'd mark it red on the basis of construction.
"Simple, obvious observations are falsely labeled in a negative light (words like bigot are used) because it is politically incorrect. Jim, you are averse to most political correctness but in this matter you have succumbed."
If I take you at your word - read exactly what you right and interpret it as you say it - and you persist in making flat statements without qualifications or allowing for exceptions - then I must conclude that you mean what you say.
To say, in English, "Women are a pain!" actually means "All women are a pain always." That's what the language means.
"Men and Women are VERY different. Genetically, chemically, hormonally, ==> temperament, behavior.... It may be politically incorrect, but its true. Half a century of Leftist denial hasn't changed that."
The majority of differences are socialization. The remainder of the differences are negligible other than for the specific issues of sexual reproduction and matters immediately attached to that. It's science, not denial.
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@Froclown said
"By nature women only care about babies, being the center of attention and stirring up drama."
I agree, to a point.
In the same way, men might be said to be a mere collection of base desires, revolving around the basic necessities of food, sex, and shallow conquest.
There are higher and lower types of our species, and the higher type of male distinguishes himself by cultivating detachment and his latent divinity.
Yet I must say, (at the risk of sounding like the Advocate's Advocate), I have yet to meet a Woman who did not wear her attainments like a badge of glory. Likewise, those who make progress in the spiritual realm tend to be cold, manic, and austere. In my experience.
I've had a string of relationships with girls who fall into the category of "bipolar." It is still wonderous to me that these creatures did not destroy me in their fits of passion. While I have little patience for the type of woman described by Froclown, at the same time I retain a healthy respect for Womankind in the ideal.
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"Likewise, those who make progress in the spiritual realm tend to be cold, manic, and austere."
Hey! I resemble that remark.....
I always though my coldness came from my longitude and latitude
my mania, well from the root man....
and well austere....from Saturnian influences.....
JK
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@Jim Eshelman said
"You can't say, "People named Labyrinthus have green hair" and have it be a right unless you've done a 100% survey."
That isn't a generalization then, but more of an assessment. If you say that, "in general people named Labyrinthus have green hair" and if it is for the most part true it is accurate and can be useful generalization to those wanting to know something about hair color. The fact that it is not 100% true in all cases is what distinguishes a generalization from an absolute statement of fact.
To say that "women in general are more moody than men" is a generalization and it is accurate. To say, "I know a woman who is like an emotional rock and a man who suffers giant mood swings" is totally irrelevant and does not compromise the integrity of the generalization at all. But I have noticed there are a LOT of people out there who cannot understand this.
If my son comes to me for advice about his wife's mood swings I can console him with the general observation that this is true for a large percentage of the gender and suggest he learn how to deal with it like most men do.
Generalizations can be useful and be used for good. -
Agreed, when they are well stated, as in this last post.
