Chaos Magick
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@Redd Fezz said
"Sasha, sorry, I deleted that before your response but not fast enough, I guess. I sounded a bit harsh and I do think kids involved in any magical path are probably fooling themselves for quite a while with the occasional miraculous surprise of accomplishment. Chaos magick being what it is makes it rather hard to decipher success from failure, imo."
Ha! We right on top of each other in this thread. Anyway... Don't think I don't have my critiques of the chaos magic community. And I don't say that as an outsider looking in.
@Redd Fezz said
"I think most of the big-name Chaotes started out in G.D. styled systems and THAT is why they understood where Spare was coming from."
And the fact that younger, at least, American chaos magicians don't start off with it, don't understand it, and even poo-poo it annoys me. One of my criticisms of the US chaos scene. All "paradigms" are equal and "everything is permitted" - except for the Golden Dawn and, to a lesser extent, more explicitly Thelemic approaches. Grrrr... Of course, I greatly generalize with this, but the setiment exists quite strongly. And, yes, I have said this repeatedly within the chaos scene, so I'm not just bashing people behind their backs.
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@sasha said
"And the fact that younger, at least, American chaos magicians don't start off with it, don't understand it, and even poo-poo it annoys me. One of my criticisms of the US chaos scene. All "paradigms" are equal and "everything is permitted" - except for the Golden Dawn and, to a lesser extent, more explicitly Thelemic approaches."
Yes, especially since Ray Sherwin, who created IOT with Pete Cararoll said this:
"...The difficulties of running such an order soon became apparent. What seemed simple to us, both in concept and technique, was not simple to people who had not suffered the bizarre and arbitary intricacies of what is now referred to as 'traditional magick.'"
source: www.chaosmatrix.org/library/chaos/texts/sher2.html
This, in my opinion, confirms that Chaos Magick
evolved from traditional magic. Certainly, Ray and Peter were traditionalists, based on the above quote. Spare didn't bother to lay out formulae too extensively because it was up to each individual to create his own system, which is what IOT was attempting to do from the beginning. Maybe Spare learned this idea of the 'personal system of sorcery' from the old witch who supposedly taught him... it reminds me of what Crowley said about each person having to create his own unique Qabalah. I'm so glad I bought Stephen Mace's "Stealing The Fire From Heaven" while it was still in print, by the way. 
It seems odd to me that Crowley came to think of Spare as a 'black brother' simply because he did not accept Thelema. -
93
on chaos magick i personal think its black magick, due to from what i have heard says that it does not believe in an HGA and therefore they dont use magick to help thereselves become closer to there HGA.
but remember this is just my opinion due to what i have heard, everone has the right to do there will.
93s
fr418
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@bethata418 said
"on chaos magick i personal think its black magick, due to from what i have heard says that it does not believe in an HGA and therefore they dont use magick to help thereselves become closer to there HGA."
You bring up an interesting point I was thinking about discussing myself: rejection of the concept of the HGA.
The interesting thing about the original "chaos magicians" is that they for the most part evolved from Thelema. While Ray and Peter may have formed IOT, which really influenced the most people, Ramsey Dukes is credited with writing one of the "ur texts of chaos magick" with S.S.O.T.B.M.E. first published in 1974 and, man, that is a brilliant piece of writing. I wouldn't be surprised if he influenced Ray and Peter. SSOTBME is so smart, it takes where Crowley left off being smart: it applied the sword of analysis to everything and came up with the basic mindset that underlies Chaos Magic: "Nothing is true, everything is permitted" as Hassan I Sabbah supposedly said or "I slept with Doubt and woke up with a virgin" as Crowley said. If something seems very definitely true, break out the jackhammers and annihilate it. Analysis can destroy the entire world.
Obviously, it would take extreme willpower to deny oneself the luxury of any fixed beliefs, but in all actuality, it does make sense in a universe based on probability. Ancient formula used probability to square the circle (22, 7) and with the discovery of quantum mechanics we are forced to accept the universe is, at it's basic, probability. Not fixed truths.
So, the philosophy does make some sense.
The interesting thing is, with such intelligent, dedicated and focused people behind the evolution of the "93 Current" into what is now called "Chaos Magick," you have people who succeeded in contacting their Holy Guardian Angel and came to different conclusions than Crowley. Ramsey Dukes seems to have found it utterly depressing and not what he expected at all. Ray Sherwin certainly takes the romance right out of it. And Peter Carroll, who was at once all for it, now sounds totally against it. Carroll says, "The further I look into the concept of Augoeides or True Will, the more my opinion hardens against the idea. One can certainly perform operations to achieve it, but I now consider it unwise to do so as it merely bloats one of our component selves to demonic size, at the expense of our full humanity. Crowley was certainly a man of varied and often extreme achievements. More of a mystic rather than a magus, in the sense that he neglected results magic. He was also a bully and an exploiter and an incorrigible self publicist. Although he attracted many interesting people to himself, the best of them seemed to break with him rather quickly. I rather fancy that I would have found him fascinating for a while, but that we would have ended up fighting after a while."
from: www.philhine.org.uk/writings/ess_petecint.htmlRegarding "black magic," as Carroll points out, Crowley spoke against black magic enough, yet certainly it would seem some of his actions fall under that category. Advertising is black magic. That's what I do for a living. That's what Crowley did when he used 150 pseudonyms to publish the Equinox. One could categorize his wartime propaganda as black magick. But, there are many little details of his life that would fall under "black magick" and yet this is the man who made K&Cw/HGA the focal point of his magical world.
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Just as an FYI the IOT as done by Carroll and Sherwin was little more then a tag name for themselves and their friends. It wouldn't be until the mid 80s, long after Sherwin moved on to other things, that the IOT would be recormed as the Magical Pact of the Illuminates of Thanateros by Carroll and Frater VD.
Sherwin was an interesting character. His background was with Scientiology and Thelema while Carroll was more interested in trying to hammer out his own personal approach to magic which was definately flavored by Thelema and Spare as interpreted by Grant.
Chaos magic is a discipline and technique driven approach to practical magic adapatable to nearly any system of belief and metaphysical orientation. Most of the people who have been most influenced by the approach, and have in turn influenced it, do not refer to themselves as "Chaos Magicians" as their primary identity any more then a British novelist would refers to themselves as an "English Speaker."
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As Ray said in the above link, the IOT got out of hand rather quickly, which is why he left. Naturally, it began as a loose group of friends, but surprisingly, it turned into something beyond what was intended.
@BlackSun9 said
"Most of the people who have been most influenced by the approach, and have in turn influenced it, do not refer to themselves as "Chaos Magicians" as their primary identity"
There's probably a whole bunch of reasons for this, but I haven't actually seen any other popular terms besides "chaos magician" other than maybe "psybermage" which is just as awful, if not worse. I think chaos is thought of as the "formless mother" and with this core concept, it seems "chaos magician" is the default pigeonholing if you're going to market your ideas, at least.
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@bethata418 said
"on chaos magick i personal think its black magick, due to from what i have heard says that it does not believe in an HGA and therefore they dont use magick to help thereselves become closer to there HGA."
But this only makes sense within the context of Thelema - and maybe the Golden Dawn. The philosophy of chaos magic argues against using the standards and goals of one system as absolute truth to judge another system. Of course, you don't have to accept that. But I think it makes great sense. Who cares if an HGA really exists or not, as long as we can get the results? If we can't look at the HGA/Will concept, at least as understood in Thelema, and see a reason to pursue it independent of any belief in its reality, then I don't see much point in pursuing it at all. And I don't see any reason why anyone else should ever believe us if we do think an HGA really exists.
Regardless, I interpret Crowley's definitions of magic to mean that any act at all, not just explicitly magical ones, that doesn't conform to one's True Will (again, assuming it exists at all) counts as black magic. So almost everything most of us do probably counts as black magic. I can see this sort of idea as somewhat useful as a reminder to stay focused on one's Will, but not in any moral sense or in a prohibitory sense. I, personally, don't ever talk about black, grey, white, etc. magic. It has too much moralistic and judgemental baggage for me.
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I agree, Sasha. While I am focusing more and more on preparing to at least get more friendly with my HGA and I sure do hope this happens for me, at the same time, I am left with the same doubts I had when I first tip-toed into magic: namely, how would you ever KNOW if a demon/angel/spirit/entity is lying or what its motives are. Or even if it is truly an external entity at all.
The only conclusions I came to were that:
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Paul Foster Case's advice makes a lot of sense: the HGA will always act in your favor, but it never flatters and it never cajoles, it never demands and it can be downright critical. That bit of helpful advice does make a lot of sense.
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Crowley's analysis of Aiwass was enough to prove to himself that it was something external. But, you could also use the "I am the master making the grass green" line of thought to propose that the entire world is in Crowley's (or mine or yours) imagination and therefore Aiwass is no more external than anything else in the "All Is One" philosophy. Crowley does make a joke somewhere that it doesn't matter to him "whether the Universe itself is anything more than a nightmare created by his own imprudence in the matter of rum and water," so it seems that he would agree with the basic premise of Chaos Magick.
In fact, doesn't the clashing of the infinitely great and the infinitely small, according to Crowley, put every man at the center of the Universe? And doesn't that mean everyone is really quite separate in their perception? And isn't one's perception his Reality? If I allow thoughts about the HGA to trickle into my sphere of awareness and influence my Reality, am I choosing to believe this? If someone else chooses not to, does that make them wrong?
If one "crosses the abyss" and enters a realm where everything is both true and untrue simultaneously, what does that say about True Will? As Carroll quoting Spare says, "the root of every emotion is also its opposite." As Siddhartha said, "Desire is the cause of sorrow"... perhaps that is why some people, having discovered their True Will are profoundly disappointed and disillusioned?
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Redd Fezz said:
"Peter Carroll, who was at once all for it, now sounds totally against it. Carroll says, "The further I look into the concept of Augoeides or True Will, the more my opinion hardens against the idea. One can certainly perform operations to achieve it, but I now consider it unwise to do so as it merely bloats one of our component selves to demonic size, at the expense of our full humanity...""
I've always ignored Chaos magick because of what I see as an aura of pretentiousness, with the Chaotic magicians displaying little sense of humor. This passage sounds like someone trying to 'incorporate' the HGA or an aspect of it into his existing personality structure. That would, without doubt, bloat one of our component selves to demonic size. The idea of the HGA as something like a very large balloon on a string comes to mind when I read Carroll's comment.
I would imagine the K&C comes primarily as a result of a particular practice extended over a very long period of time, and constantly disrupting that process would lead to a very poor or negative result, as described.
Edward
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A few insights I've learned from people practicing chaos magick is that it is a very advanced system for psyche deconstruction. Obviously this is coming from those that truly use the system for its intended purpose and not the 'kids' that think it's cool to have the moniker of chaos magicians.
As I understand it by using a number of magickal formula, or systems, as one's personal practice over time one learns that the systems themselves are a means to an end and not the end in and of itself. This leads to an understanding that all our beliefs are anchored on shifting sands, that nothing is really as it seems. The only way to really understand this is from an experiential / transcendent point of view, which is developed as one constructs and deconstructs various belief systems. This in turn leads to a trancendent understanding / experience of how the metaphysical mechanics of the universe work which in turn gives the chaos magician insight into how he / she can shape reality to his / her personal will.
One of my friends who has practiced chaos magick said it is the most effective and direct magick for influencing and shaping your reality to your will. Notice that there is no mention of the Great Work involved. Some of those practicing chaos magic are using it to further the Great Work, but many involved are using it for the purpose of sorcery - use of magick to further their own personal goals - and have no desire to realize their HGA.
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Nick, 93,
" As I understand it by using a number of magical formula, or systems, as one's personal practice over time one learns that the systems themselves are a means to an end and not the end in and of itself. This leads to an understanding that all our beliefs are anchored on shifting sands, that nothing is really as it seems."
Wouldn't that be true of all the systems? One day, we find we're just not in Kansas anymore. This would be standard in all schools of Buddhism, I'd have thought, to cite just one example. Are the Chaos people just reinventing the chakra? Or maybe failing to do so?
93 93/93,
Edward
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@Edward Mason said
"I've always ignored Chaos magick because of what I see as an aura of pretentiousness, with the Chaotic magicians displaying little sense of humor. "
I've been turned off by the aura of pretentiousness, too, and while I do see what you mean about "displaying little sense of humor," at times, they are the exact opposite, as they don't take anything seriously and make a big joke out of reality, especially other people's "reality maps."
However, in the above quote that irked you, if you think about it long enough, it might start to sound different. The Abramelin Operation seems to stress the psyche until it "snaps" and produces the intended effect, so who's to really say what's truly going on here and whether or not Carroll was more or less successful than Crowley regarding K&C of the HGA? If we're judging by actions, how would we determine who was less of a "black magician?"
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@Edward Mason said
"Wouldn't that be true of all the systems? One day, we find we're just not in Kansas anymore. This would be standard in all schools of Buddhism, I'd have thought, to cite just one example. Are the Chaos people just reinventing the chakra? Or maybe failing to do so?"
Yes, I would agree that the purpose of many esoteric formulae is to have the practitioner come to experience things as they really are. Most of these systems are focused on a spiritual persuit. As I have been lead to understand chaos magick it doesn't have one particular focus such as accomplishing the Great Work. Rather the focus is to make the practitioner more efficient at reaching his or her personal goals. At least this is the view of those that I have spoken to regarding chaos magick. I've only spoken to a few, and don't have first hand knowledge so I may be very wrong in my understanding of chaos magick's intent. I believe there are individuals on this list that do have some first hand experience and they might be able to 'enlighten'
us a bit more. -
93,
Redd Fezz said:
" who's to really say what's truly going on here and whether or not Carroll was more or less successful than Crowley regarding K&C of the HGA? If we're judging by actions, how would we determine who was less of a "black magician?" "
I don't think it's really an issue of black magicians, so much as one of black brothers. What you're describing here is someone who has made sure his/her ego remains firmly in place. In Crowley's case, I find strong evidence in his writings that he really knew what he was talking about, even if his outer personality was never perhaps fully conformed to the K&C. Though even there, like you I'm hesitant to lay on judgements.
Still the real transition to the K&C (I believe) involves a difficult period of dissolution of the outer structures of the psyche. If the Chaos magician feels he/she can grant him/herself permission to disrupt that process at any time ... then that process is disrupted. The result may be greater consciousness or greater power, or great sex, but it can't be 'the real thing'.
Standardised practices can seem very silly, and man, can they get boring. But the very fact of practicing attunes the psyche to accepting the idea of not having to be in control.
93 93/93,
Edward
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Nick, 93,
You said:
" I have been lead to understand chaos magick it doesn't have one particular focus such as accomplishing the Great Work. Rather the focus is to make the practitioner more efficient at reaching his or her personal goals. "
Sure, and the magician is presumably exploring some aspect of True Will by going through all this, even if he/she rejects the value of the TW or the K&C. So, depending on the practitioner, it may or may not be a useful activity, at least in a limited time-frame.
I can't be bothered to explore Chaos Magick too deeply, because I wonder what value personally - i.e., egoically - chosen goals had for anyone involved in magick. I've avoided the few people I've met who claim to be into Chaos, simply because I didn't feel sympatico with them.
The only reasons I have for posting on this topic are (a) I think the idea that Chaos Magick is related to Thelema is confusing some people because the statements of some practitioners in both areas can seen similar, and (b) I think that constant disruption of consciousness and the perpetually generated environment in which it operates is unlikely to bring anyone to a useful understanding or to greater happiness.
93 93/93,
Edward
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I'm inclined to agree with everything Edward just said. The only reasons I've personally ever really wanted to learn about the occult were to know what the hell life was all about and, hopefully, knowing this or coming closer to learning this, would give me a secure enough grounding to cut out an enjoyable niche for myself that wasn't plagued with worry, guilt or too much doubt.
Yes, I want to know God, essentially, first and foremost, whether it's a clockworks God or whatever. I think I have come closer to understanding-- and I do think Chaos ideas have helped, actually -- REMEMBER: Austin Osman Spare is said to have been able to do ANYTHING... and he chose to do NOTHING!
Another important "Chaote," Ray Sherwin, was absolutely militant about his schedule/ritual in the "Book of Results."
So, right there, you have two very important "chaos magicians" who don't 'fit the bill' regarding "chaos magicians." I have every reason to believe the "big names in Chaos" seriously focused on K&C w/HGA or serious Knowledge, in general, in the case with Spare. Spare, Sherwin, Carroll, Hine and Dukes are no slouches.
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@Edward Mason said
"Still the real transition to the K&C (I believe) involves a difficult period of dissolution of the outer structures of the psyche."
Yes, that can particularly occur in the Dominus Liminis stage - or, of course, in any preliminary stage where something needs to be shaken loose. But, all the lead-up having been done, Dom Lim particularly is a time when layers are peeled back (to change the more common metaphor).
But the K&C itself is integrative - dissolving, but not disintegrating, singularizing and differentiating rather than diffusing etc.
Then again, for each person the preliminary requirements and the actual nature of the experience will be unique. I speak, at best, of the general case.
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law
@sasha said
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@bethata418 said
"on chaos magick i personal think its black magick, due to from what i have heard says that it does not believe in an HGA and therefore they dont use magick to help thereselves become closer to there HGA."But this only makes sense within the context of Thelema - and maybe the Golden Dawn. The philosophy of chaos magic argues against using the standards and goals of one system as absolute truth to judge another system. Of course, you don't have to accept that. But I think it makes great sense. Who cares if an HGA really exists or not, as long as we can get the results?"
Let us not forget Crowley's own words:(Liber ABA page 151(book four part 3 chapter 2))
@Uncle Al said
"He who became the Master Therion was once confronted by this very difficulty. Being determined to instruct mankind, He sought a simple statement of his object. His will was sufficiently informed by common sense to decide him to teach man "The Next Step", the thing which was immediately above him. He might have called this "God", or "The Higher Self", or "The Augoeides", or "Adi-Buddha", or 61 other things --- but He had discovered that these were all one, yet that each one represented some theory of the Universe which would ultimately be shattered by criticism --- for He had already passed through the realm of Reason, and knew that every statement contained an absurdity. He therefore said: "Let me declare this Work under this title: 'The obtaining of the Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel'", because the theory implied in these words is so patently absurd that only simpletons would waste much time in analysing it. It would be accepted as a convention, and no one would incur the grave danger of building a philosophical system upon it.
With this understanding, we may rehabilitate the Hebrew system of invocations. The mind is the great enemy; so, by invoking enthusiastically a person whom we know not to exist, we are rebuking that mind."
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Great post, AC! I didn't realize that... even sounds like Crowley didn't believe in his HGA..??? But, clearly he did. He even goes so far as to claim Aiwaz an external entity. I guess he never convinced Regardie of this, but he himself was convinced.
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law
@Redd Fezz said
"Great post, AC! I didn't realize that... even sounds like Crowley didn't believe in his HGA..??? But, clearly he did. He even goes so far as to claim Aiwaz an external entity. I guess he never convinced Regardie of this, but he himself was convinced."
I don't remember where he wrote it (if someone does please remind me I would like to quote it from the source) but the Beast wrote somewhere in his writings something to the effect of "such a man believes a thing not because it is true, but because it must be believed to be true for the purpose of the act".
Those are the words of a Magus. The Magus has seen beyond all realities and may pick and choose from realities as he sees fit. He understands the unreality of all reality tunnels. He is the great weaver. Weaving reality (illusion) for all those around him.