HGA
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I have often heard Thelemites use the HGA and "higher Self" almost interchangeably. Today I read this from Magick Without Tears, which seems to go directly against this idea:
Crowley:
"I have tended rather to elaborate this theme, because of the one personally important question which arises in more recent letters; for I believe that the Holy Guardian Angel is a Being of this order. He is something more than a man, possibly a being who has already passed through the stage of humanity, and his peculiarly intimate relationship with his client is that of friendship, of community, of brotherhood, or Fatherhood. He is not, let me say with emphasis, a mere abstraction from yourself; and that is why I have insisted rather heavily that the term "Higher Self" implies "a damnable heresy and a dangerous delusion."It it were not so, there would be no point in The Sacred Magic of Abramelin the Mage."
He seems rather clear and calls this a damnable heresy and dangerous delusion. Any comments?
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law
@DavidH said
"I have often heard Thelemites use the HGA and "higher Self" almost interchangeably. Today I read this from Magick Without Tears, which seems to go directly against this idea:
Crowley:
"I have tended rather to elaborate this theme, because of the one personally important question which arises in more recent letters; for I believe that the Holy Guardian Angel is a Being of this order. He is something more than a man, possibly a being who has already passed through the stage of humanity, and his peculiarly intimate relationship with his client is that of friendship, of community, of brotherhood, or Fatherhood. He is not, let me say with emphasis, a mere abstraction from yourself; and that is why I have insisted rather heavily that the term "Higher Self" implies "a damnable heresy and a dangerous delusion."It it were not so, there would be no point in The Sacred Magic of Abramelin the Mage."
He seems rather clear and calls this a damnable heresy and dangerous delusion. Any comments?"
Neo: But Morphius, the oracle told me.....
Morpheus: She told you exactly what you needed to hear. Some day you'll realize what I have realized. It is one thing to know the path and quite another thing to walk it. -
Crowley said different things to people according to grade. Compare what he says in MWT (written for total beginners) to what he said in the Scholion to Liber Samekh (written for the 5=6 A.'.A.'.).
Not that these settle anything
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Can someone help in explaining the difference between K&C of the HGA and that of union with Binah/crossing the abyss? Is there a comparison to another religion/system using different words? I have read some people descibe the K&CofHGA as union with "God." If this is the case, what is higher than that? Or is the crossing the abyss actually union with "God" and the HGA is something "lower?"
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@David said
"Can someone help in explaining the difference between K&C of the HGA and that of union with Binah/crossing the abyss? Is there a comparison to another religion/system using different words? I have read some people descibe the K&CofHGA as union with "God." If this is the case, what is higher than that? Or is the crossing the abyss actually union with "God" and the HGA is something "lower?""
Tough to summarize briefly, but I'll try to answer the question along the lines it was asked.
Higher than "Union with Everything" is "Union with Nothing." The "Everything" is, of necessity, ultimately a projection. (This doesn't mean it isn't real, just that one has (so far) no capacity to directly experience that Reality.) One shouldn't let the fact that this is a projection interfere with one's giving the entirety of one's being to it so far as possible. (In fact, the focusing of the whole of oneself onto a single point is a big part of the technique. It is easier to give up everything at once when it's already been prebundled into a single thing!)
There comes a time - years or even incarnations later - when one outgrows even that projection. Having poured the whole of oneself into a single thing, in its abdication one gives up all that one is and has into an Infinite that is far better expressed by Zero - by NOTHING! - than by anything at all.
For comparison to other systems - that which precedes the attainment of Tiphereth is what St. John of the Cross called the first (or lesser) Dark Night of the Soul. The second, or greater, is that which precedes the attainment of Binah. (Or, alternately, St. John may not have reached that level. He may have been writing of Tav and Paroketh instead of Paroketh and the Abyss. But it's analogous in any case.)
In the A.'.A.'. scale of things, the full attainment of Tiphereth is samadhi. (By this I mean that, though that definition usually isn't given, the usual definitions or descriptions of samadhi exactly fit the characteristics of opening to Briatic consciousness which - in the A.'.A.'. scheme of things - occurs as Dominus Liminis ripens into Adeptus Minor.) But crossing the Abyss - entering Nothing - is Nirvana.
PS - Nu alone knows whether I would answer this the same way on any other occasion!
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@DavidH said
"Very helpful Jim, thanks. I was wondering, besides the Dark Night of the Christian mythos, could they be said to correspond as:
HGA= Christ consciousness
Binah= Communion of Saints"I don't have an answer for that. (I suppose I'm insufficiently familiar with the formal use of C of S in the orthodox mass.)
I'm also uneasy with "Christ-consciousness" in the absence of a definition - but I think I'd say that this is exactly what people (especially in occult and metaphysical communities, as distinct from religious communities) mean when they use the C.C. term. It's a common equivalency used.
My only hesitancy is that if I say Yes, then we are defining two unknowns by terms for which we have no agreed definitions
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I've often wondered about a person's true will. First of all, is not the ultimate true will of each person to do the great work? But besides that, for this question I am refering to a person's true will in their present incarnation and perhaps even a mundane true will if there is such a thing.
Say a person's true will is to be a doctor. Does that necessarily mean they enjoy being a doctor? Can the true will be something that the person does not necesarilly want or like? Also, if it is their true will and the universe is behind them, it seems that it would be easy for them to take this course, there would be little resistance. For example, there are things I love to do that I'm not all that good at and could never be a pro at them. Other things I find easy and just "fell" into them but don't enjoy them all that much.
I guess I have two questions.
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If you are finding many difficulties and obstacles (not just a few, but many), is this a hint from the Universe that this path is not for you? I'm not talking about bumps in the road, but walls!
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If you are doing your true will, is joy and happiness a must ingredient? Or can someone be doing what they "were meant to do" but would enjoy something else better.
Just a few things to think about. Any ideas?
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@DavidH said
"Say a person's true will is to be a doctor. Does that necessarily mean they enjoy being a doctor? Can the true will be something that the person does not necesarilly want or like?"
I'll assume this is a convenient example and slide past spending too much time on insisting that it isn't likely someone's True Will to be a doctor - but, rather, being a doctor would be a particular expression of the more fundamental thing that is their True Will.
Shooting for the main target: Your question really boils down to, "Is a person always happy being true to themselves, acting in a way that is consistent with their own deep nature, etc.?" One would like to say that the answer is always Yes - and, in a self-aware, relatively unconflicted person, I'm convinced the answer will always be Yes. But the question of discovering True Will only exists as an issue because the majority of people are out of touch with themselves, have created adaptive behaviors etc., and often are living their lives at acute odds with their true natures.
That is, some people are sometimes uncomfortable really being themselves. I bet you can come up with several examples on your own regarding this.
As self-awareness and mindful self-honesty increase, their ability to look at this discrepancy will change.
"Also, if it is their true will and the universe is behind them, it seems that it would be easy for them to take this course, there would be little resistance."
The main source of resistence is internal. All Will is universal, but he human personality exercises a lot of Won't Power. Most of our defeats are self-defeats.
"1) If you are finding many difficulties and obstacles (not just a few, but many), is this a hint from the Universe that this path is not for you? I'm not talking about bumps in the road, but walls!"
Definitely a hint. Not definitive, but definitely a hint, or evidence in a given direction and worthy of inflection.
But remember that most walls are self-created walls. This may be because something is genuinely not right for us, or it may be for other reasons. (I have a friend in his mid-40s who is scared to death of being bored, but really would like to settle down. He continues to line up only with genuinely crazy women who make his life hell. His psychological need for these circumstances is probably not his healthiest potential self, and, from knowing him, I believe he does deeply want a settled, peaceful, loving relationship. Other pressing "hooking" behaviors have priority in his life right now, though, so he won't make the choices that would take him in a different way.)
"2) If you are doing your true will, is joy and happiness a must ingredient? Or can someone be doing what they "were meant to do" but would enjoy something else better. "
Being true to yourself is inherently joyful, free, and easy. This doesn't preclude day-to-day things - taking on more than you can handle, for example, and having the frustration, tiredness, etc.
For your second sentence - take your question out of your present context, apply it to your experience of life, and I think you'll see your answer.
Just a few things to think about. Any ideas?"
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@Jim Eshelman said
"I bet you can come up with several examples on your own regarding this.
"I bet I could too!
Thanks for all these great things to think about. For some reason this topic short circuts my brain. My main problem is that I have things I really desire to do, things I feel are my true love, and then I have things that conflict with those that seem like the "responsible" things to do.
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93 Dave and everyone else,
"1) If you are finding many difficulties and obstacles (not just a few, but many), is this a hint from the Universe that this path is not for you? I'm not talking about bumps in the road, but walls!"
I felt compelled to answer your question by referencing the movie "Pan's Labyrinth", in which the main character Ophelia is given a piece of magickal chalk. She finds herself in a bind, and draws a door in a wall that helps her escape. I felt compelled to refer this portion of the movie to you because I believe that although we may feel like we've hit a wall there is always a way to get past it; we can climb over it, run around it or even break through it. And maybe this is a lesson in and of itself that we learn through the course of our existence in our previous, current and future incarnations. Perhaps certain misfortunes or instances where one feels stuck or trapped ARE indications that the path isn't for them. I guess it really comes down to the individual and their perception of the situation.
As far as your second question, I couldn't see why anyone doing their true will wouldn't be happy, as it seems that doing one's true will is doing that which they were designed to do (if I could get away with using deisgned in this context
) But then again, I guess it does come down to the individual and their true will. Just wanted to throw some stuff out there.
93 93/93
Shariyf -
@Ra-Imhotep said
"As far as your second question, I couldn't see why anyone doing their true will wouldn't be happy, as it seems that doing one's true will is doing that which they were designed to do (if I could get away with using deisgned in this context
) But then again, I guess it does come down to the individual and their true will. Just wanted to throw some stuff out there.
93 93/93
Shariyf"93 Ra-Imhotep,
I remember seeing a seminar or something once by a yogi abd he said to always expect some obstacles but if you are constantly getting walls then the Universe is trying to tell you that you're on the wrong track.
As for being happy while doing the true will, I will give an example. And since I don't know what real true will is, I will stick to a mundane "true" will...or the outward, earthly manifestation of the "true will." I have met people who are doing something in life that seems so easy to them. They do it perfectly and with ease as if the universe is behind them. It is as if they were "made for this purpose." But inside they are unhappy and would rather be doing something else, perhaps something that they would never be successful at. I knew a man who was one of the best investigators, a legend, and people came from all over the world to hire him and investigators asked him for pointers. He was the investigator's investigator! But he didn't like doing it and found joy only when he ran home after it hit 5pm to play his guitar and sing, things he would never be great at!
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Interesting.
Yes, it is the things that don't come easy that we had to earn that we value the most. Perhaps that has to do with our basic need to create and learn and grow.
In L.V.X.,
chrys333 -
93,
Quote;
I knew a man who was one of the best investigators, a legend, and people came from all over the world to hire him and investigators asked him for pointers. He was the investigator's investigator! But he didn't like doing it and found joy only when he ran home after it hit 5pm to play his guitar and sing, things he would never be great at!Life (or The HGA )is the one who decides our place in the scheme of things whether we like it or not. I think the trouble is our acceptance of our assignment for this incarnation.
Just my 2 cents.Love is the Law Love under Will
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@Fraterdeen said
"Life (or The HGA )is the one who decides our place in the scheme of things whether we like it or not. I think the trouble is our acceptance of our assignment for this incarnation.
Just my 2 cents.Love is the Law Love under Will"
That was my question and it seems that people vary in opinion, which is expected. You seem to be saying that one can be doing ones "will" according the universe , hga, or what have you but not necessarily like it. Others seem to think that if you are doing your true will then you will be happy doing it ( I think). Slightly off topic, but that new book and dvd THE SECRET says that one way to know you are on the right track is by your emotions. If you feel Happy then you are on track. and at the same time you are attracting those things which make you happy.
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@DavidH said
"You seem to be saying that one can be doing ones "will" according the universe , hga, or what have you but not necessarily like it. Others seem to think that if you are doing your true will then you will be happy doing it ( I think)."
This is something that has bothered me for some time. This is a gross generalisation of course, but why is the True Will always something high and noble. I'm sure everyone knows what I'm talking about when I ask "Who cleans the toilets in the New Aeon?"
While I have heard plenty of people claiming that their True Will is to be an artist, a writer, or a poet. I have never heard anyone claim it is their True Will to be super-market shelf stacker or a road sweeper. You know, the sort of donkey work jobs that make society tick but no one actually wants to do.
From reading Crowley it seems to be clear that he saw Thelema involved a kind of Master and Slave morality. I wonder how many people feel comfortable with statements like this from Liber 101:
"Members of the Order are to regard those without its pale as possessing no rights of any kind, since they have not accepted the Law, and are therefore, as it were, troglodytes, survivals of a past civilisation, and to be treated accordingly. Kindness should be shown towards them, as towards any other animal, and every effort should be made to bring them into Freedom."
I know the above quote relates to the O.T.O. But it's still spot on with Crowley's apparent stance on a two-tier society of masters and slaves.
So the question is, is it anyones Will to be at the bottom of the pile? Or do those who have found their Will live off the backs of those who haven't?
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Heru, 93,
" You seem to be saying that one can be doing ones "will" according the universe , hga, or what have you but not necessarily like it. Others seem to think that if you are doing your true will then you will be happy doing it ( I think). Slightly off topic, but that new book and dvd THE SECRET says that one way to know you are on the right track is by your emotions. If you feel Happy then you are on track. and at the same time you are attracting those things which make you happy."
If the True Will is the expression of a Star, then it is a constant outpouring of creative Light. So, the idea that "Now I'm doing my TW" and "Now I'm not" may be how it all seems from the standpoint of the outer or superficial self (aka 'me') but it's an inadequate expression of the reality. But I do see that when my conscious self is aligned with what I believe to be my TW, then there is a sense of rightness or satisfaction there.
As I was about to write this, my car started to throw up a hairball, right onto the rug. I moved and grabbed her, much to her dismay ("Can't I have this private moment - sheesh!") and pulled her onto an area of bare floor. It was much esaier to clean up and, since the rug didn't get impregnated with cat-vomit as a breeding-ground for bacteria, safer for both of us.
Doing this was just as much an expression of my TW, I'd say, as bringing forth some soul-stirring dissertation on the Dissolution of the Dyad. It expressed my own Light, in this case, a will to maintain good order and a safe physical environment. The cat - my 'slave', I guess - didn't appreciate being grabbed in mid-heave, but both of us were the better for my actions.
Was I happy about having cat-puke to clear up? Happiness seems a slightly lame concept in relation to many life-situations. The expression 'the pursuit of happiness' was added into the US Constitution almost as an afterthought, and is not a concept embedded in the collective mind of any other nation (that I know of). Peace, human rights and dignity, right relationship with the universe, good order and so on, are basics in many countries, but I think happiness is a distorting or distracting idea in a Thelemic context, and a dumbing-down. I'm not advocating misery as an alternative,
just saying it's not the same thing as joy. Rather, it's a by-product of satisfaction or a general sense of rightness.
93 93/93,
Edward
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@Edward Mason said
"But I do see that when my conscious self is aligned with what I believe to be my TW, then there is a sense of rightness or satisfaction there."
Yes - and I think that's the main point. Another way of waying it is that you will go forward in your Way by the momentum of your nature, but either in pain or joy - and the pain or joy will be the result either of consciously aligning with your Way or of resisting it.
Joy is the personality's experience of moving in (conscious or unconscious) alignment with it's Truth. Pain is the personality's experience of moving at odds with or resistent to it's innate course.
Also, since this began as a thread on the HGA, I wanted to throw in that in the early '90s I was looking for language to express the relationship between the True Will and the HGA (particularly, at the time, in the face of Crowley's observation that people wrongly confuse the Knowledge of the True Will with the K&C of the HGA). What I settled on, and what has served me consistently for myself and teaching since, is to call the True Will "the Voice of the HGA." (Not audible, of course - but, otherwise, I think the metaphor speaks for itself.)