HGA
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@DavidH said
"Say a person's true will is to be a doctor. Does that necessarily mean they enjoy being a doctor? Can the true will be something that the person does not necesarilly want or like?"
I'll assume this is a convenient example and slide past spending too much time on insisting that it isn't likely someone's True Will to be a doctor - but, rather, being a doctor would be a particular expression of the more fundamental thing that is their True Will.
Shooting for the main target: Your question really boils down to, "Is a person always happy being true to themselves, acting in a way that is consistent with their own deep nature, etc.?" One would like to say that the answer is always Yes - and, in a self-aware, relatively unconflicted person, I'm convinced the answer will always be Yes. But the question of discovering True Will only exists as an issue because the majority of people are out of touch with themselves, have created adaptive behaviors etc., and often are living their lives at acute odds with their true natures.
That is, some people are sometimes uncomfortable really being themselves. I bet you can come up with several examples on your own regarding this.
As self-awareness and mindful self-honesty increase, their ability to look at this discrepancy will change.
"Also, if it is their true will and the universe is behind them, it seems that it would be easy for them to take this course, there would be little resistance."
The main source of resistence is internal. All Will is universal, but he human personality exercises a lot of Won't Power. Most of our defeats are self-defeats.
"1) If you are finding many difficulties and obstacles (not just a few, but many), is this a hint from the Universe that this path is not for you? I'm not talking about bumps in the road, but walls!"
Definitely a hint. Not definitive, but definitely a hint, or evidence in a given direction and worthy of inflection.
But remember that most walls are self-created walls. This may be because something is genuinely not right for us, or it may be for other reasons. (I have a friend in his mid-40s who is scared to death of being bored, but really would like to settle down. He continues to line up only with genuinely crazy women who make his life hell. His psychological need for these circumstances is probably not his healthiest potential self, and, from knowing him, I believe he does deeply want a settled, peaceful, loving relationship. Other pressing "hooking" behaviors have priority in his life right now, though, so he won't make the choices that would take him in a different way.)
"2) If you are doing your true will, is joy and happiness a must ingredient? Or can someone be doing what they "were meant to do" but would enjoy something else better. "
Being true to yourself is inherently joyful, free, and easy. This doesn't preclude day-to-day things - taking on more than you can handle, for example, and having the frustration, tiredness, etc.
For your second sentence - take your question out of your present context, apply it to your experience of life, and I think you'll see your answer.
Just a few things to think about. Any ideas?"
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@Jim Eshelman said
"I bet you can come up with several examples on your own regarding this.
"I bet I could too!
Thanks for all these great things to think about. For some reason this topic short circuts my brain. My main problem is that I have things I really desire to do, things I feel are my true love, and then I have things that conflict with those that seem like the "responsible" things to do.
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93 Dave and everyone else,
"1) If you are finding many difficulties and obstacles (not just a few, but many), is this a hint from the Universe that this path is not for you? I'm not talking about bumps in the road, but walls!"
I felt compelled to answer your question by referencing the movie "Pan's Labyrinth", in which the main character Ophelia is given a piece of magickal chalk. She finds herself in a bind, and draws a door in a wall that helps her escape. I felt compelled to refer this portion of the movie to you because I believe that although we may feel like we've hit a wall there is always a way to get past it; we can climb over it, run around it or even break through it. And maybe this is a lesson in and of itself that we learn through the course of our existence in our previous, current and future incarnations. Perhaps certain misfortunes or instances where one feels stuck or trapped ARE indications that the path isn't for them. I guess it really comes down to the individual and their perception of the situation.
As far as your second question, I couldn't see why anyone doing their true will wouldn't be happy, as it seems that doing one's true will is doing that which they were designed to do (if I could get away with using deisgned in this context
) But then again, I guess it does come down to the individual and their true will. Just wanted to throw some stuff out there.93 93/93
Shariyf -
@Ra-Imhotep said
"As far as your second question, I couldn't see why anyone doing their true will wouldn't be happy, as it seems that doing one's true will is doing that which they were designed to do (if I could get away with using deisgned in this context
) But then again, I guess it does come down to the individual and their true will. Just wanted to throw some stuff out there.93 93/93
Shariyf"93 Ra-Imhotep,
I remember seeing a seminar or something once by a yogi abd he said to always expect some obstacles but if you are constantly getting walls then the Universe is trying to tell you that you're on the wrong track.
As for being happy while doing the true will, I will give an example. And since I don't know what real true will is, I will stick to a mundane "true" will...or the outward, earthly manifestation of the "true will." I have met people who are doing something in life that seems so easy to them. They do it perfectly and with ease as if the universe is behind them. It is as if they were "made for this purpose." But inside they are unhappy and would rather be doing something else, perhaps something that they would never be successful at. I knew a man who was one of the best investigators, a legend, and people came from all over the world to hire him and investigators asked him for pointers. He was the investigator's investigator! But he didn't like doing it and found joy only when he ran home after it hit 5pm to play his guitar and sing, things he would never be great at!
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Interesting.
Yes, it is the things that don't come easy that we had to earn that we value the most. Perhaps that has to do with our basic need to create and learn and grow.
In L.V.X.,
chrys333 -
93,
Quote;
I knew a man who was one of the best investigators, a legend, and people came from all over the world to hire him and investigators asked him for pointers. He was the investigator's investigator! But he didn't like doing it and found joy only when he ran home after it hit 5pm to play his guitar and sing, things he would never be great at!Life (or The HGA )is the one who decides our place in the scheme of things whether we like it or not. I think the trouble is our acceptance of our assignment for this incarnation.
Just my 2 cents.Love is the Law Love under Will
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@Fraterdeen said
"Life (or The HGA )is the one who decides our place in the scheme of things whether we like it or not. I think the trouble is our acceptance of our assignment for this incarnation.
Just my 2 cents.Love is the Law Love under Will"
That was my question and it seems that people vary in opinion, which is expected. You seem to be saying that one can be doing ones "will" according the universe , hga, or what have you but not necessarily like it. Others seem to think that if you are doing your true will then you will be happy doing it ( I think). Slightly off topic, but that new book and dvd THE SECRET says that one way to know you are on the right track is by your emotions. If you feel Happy then you are on track. and at the same time you are attracting those things which make you happy.
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@DavidH said
"You seem to be saying that one can be doing ones "will" according the universe , hga, or what have you but not necessarily like it. Others seem to think that if you are doing your true will then you will be happy doing it ( I think)."
This is something that has bothered me for some time. This is a gross generalisation of course, but why is the True Will always something high and noble. I'm sure everyone knows what I'm talking about when I ask "Who cleans the toilets in the New Aeon?"
While I have heard plenty of people claiming that their True Will is to be an artist, a writer, or a poet. I have never heard anyone claim it is their True Will to be super-market shelf stacker or a road sweeper. You know, the sort of donkey work jobs that make society tick but no one actually wants to do.
From reading Crowley it seems to be clear that he saw Thelema involved a kind of Master and Slave morality. I wonder how many people feel comfortable with statements like this from Liber 101:
"Members of the Order are to regard those without its pale as possessing no rights of any kind, since they have not accepted the Law, and are therefore, as it were, troglodytes, survivals of a past civilisation, and to be treated accordingly. Kindness should be shown towards them, as towards any other animal, and every effort should be made to bring them into Freedom."
I know the above quote relates to the O.T.O. But it's still spot on with Crowley's apparent stance on a two-tier society of masters and slaves.
So the question is, is it anyones Will to be at the bottom of the pile? Or do those who have found their Will live off the backs of those who haven't?
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Heru, 93,
" You seem to be saying that one can be doing ones "will" according the universe , hga, or what have you but not necessarily like it. Others seem to think that if you are doing your true will then you will be happy doing it ( I think). Slightly off topic, but that new book and dvd THE SECRET says that one way to know you are on the right track is by your emotions. If you feel Happy then you are on track. and at the same time you are attracting those things which make you happy."
If the True Will is the expression of a Star, then it is a constant outpouring of creative Light. So, the idea that "Now I'm doing my TW" and "Now I'm not" may be how it all seems from the standpoint of the outer or superficial self (aka 'me') but it's an inadequate expression of the reality. But I do see that when my conscious self is aligned with what I believe to be my TW, then there is a sense of rightness or satisfaction there.
As I was about to write this, my car started to throw up a hairball, right onto the rug. I moved and grabbed her, much to her dismay ("Can't I have this private moment - sheesh!") and pulled her onto an area of bare floor. It was much esaier to clean up and, since the rug didn't get impregnated with cat-vomit as a breeding-ground for bacteria, safer for both of us.
Doing this was just as much an expression of my TW, I'd say, as bringing forth some soul-stirring dissertation on the Dissolution of the Dyad. It expressed my own Light, in this case, a will to maintain good order and a safe physical environment. The cat - my 'slave', I guess - didn't appreciate being grabbed in mid-heave, but both of us were the better for my actions.
Was I happy about having cat-puke to clear up? Happiness seems a slightly lame concept in relation to many life-situations. The expression 'the pursuit of happiness' was added into the US Constitution almost as an afterthought, and is not a concept embedded in the collective mind of any other nation (that I know of). Peace, human rights and dignity, right relationship with the universe, good order and so on, are basics in many countries, but I think happiness is a distorting or distracting idea in a Thelemic context, and a dumbing-down. I'm not advocating misery as an alternative,
just saying it's not the same thing as joy. Rather, it's a by-product of satisfaction or a general sense of rightness.93 93/93,
Edward
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@Edward Mason said
"But I do see that when my conscious self is aligned with what I believe to be my TW, then there is a sense of rightness or satisfaction there."
Yes - and I think that's the main point. Another way of waying it is that you will go forward in your Way by the momentum of your nature, but either in pain or joy - and the pain or joy will be the result either of consciously aligning with your Way or of resisting it.
Joy is the personality's experience of moving in (conscious or unconscious) alignment with it's Truth. Pain is the personality's experience of moving at odds with or resistent to it's innate course.
Also, since this began as a thread on the HGA, I wanted to throw in that in the early '90s I was looking for language to express the relationship between the True Will and the HGA (particularly, at the time, in the face of Crowley's observation that people wrongly confuse the Knowledge of the True Will with the K&C of the HGA). What I settled on, and what has served me consistently for myself and teaching since, is to call the True Will "the Voice of the HGA." (Not audible, of course - but, otherwise, I think the metaphor speaks for itself.)
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Frater Deen,
I got your point, but don't totally agree. It is true that we can go chase a mirage when the reality is right before us and therefore not choose what will ultimately bring us happiness.
But, what gives you joy is what gives you joy. You're wired for it, I think. Everyone on this list is wired to respond to parts of Crowley's message.
Actually, there is someone who is a brilliant physicist who became a writer. Leonard Mlodinow. He was so good he was hired to work with Feynman in Pasadena. He found out he didn't want to do theoretical physics. He wanted to write books. Of course, people were aghast, since how many people are good enough in physics to go to California and work with Feynman? Not a whole lot. How many authors are there? Lots.
This is why it is important to find your "true" will.
This investigator fellow - what he does, I am sure he is grateful for and appreciative of, but it isn't what he would do if he had a choice. He'd play the guitar.
I know of many people who are quite good at things that they actually hate to do, like book keeping, selling cars, etc. The book keeper would just like to run a small restaurant or sandwich place, and the car salesman wants to meditate in an ashram.
Are they turning their back on their gifts, and denying their dharma? Or are they fulfilling their dharma?In L.V.X.,
chrys333 -
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
There are two ways to look at this. First, most people look at the HGA as your Higher Self, which it is. It is you, but then, so am I a part of you. The HGA is seen as seperate, because it is seperate from your being, in the state of existence that you now sit. But you have to recall that you are more than just this mundane body. you exist on many levels at once. You are, in essence, already an Ipsissimus, but you have yet to accept and recognize that fact. You are already a Great White Brother, but you have yet to allow yourself to enter that fold. The only way in is to recognize for yourself that you are already that. Not in this life, but in one past this one. Once you accept the fact that you already are, then you will also understand that while the HGA is your Higher Self, a part of you, it is also something seperate. In-depth study of the Tree of Life will show you that you are One with all things, and that all division is an illusion of your mind-a faulty machine of logic....
The point of the Abra-Melin magick is to show you what you already are, but you have to reach that state, that gnosis to really understand this. Even while I say this, I say it with my mind. I know it is so, but I have yet to truly understand it. Another thing to understand is that Crowley writes in such a way that you are only going to see what your mind is capable of seeing. Point blank, the more you read his writings, the deeper you get into then and the more you understand, the more will be revealed to you....
Love is the law, love under will. -
93 All,
My apologies for the late response. I was called in to work for the last few days for an unscheduled shut down.
Quote DavidH
That was my question and it seems that people vary in opinion, which is expected. You seem to be saying that one can be doing ones "will" according the universe , hga, or what have you but not necessarily like it. Others seem to think that if you are doing your true will then you will be happy doing it ( I think). Slightly off topic, but that new book and DVD THE SECRET says that one way to know you are on the right track is by your emotions. If you feel Happy then you are on track. and at the same time you are attracting those things which make you happy.David, I work under a mechanical engineer who is one of the best I have ever worked with to date. This guy has a knowledge base that is vast, one of the best I have ever seen. He doesn't day dream (which really freaks me out personally) he is always on the job.
I personally wish, I had his ability to concentrate. He is what my company calls a Big Gun, due to his ability to walk on a job site and take over everything and fix it. Watching this man over the years, he also has the ability to step in to a crowed of people and do the same thing. His confidence in what he knows, along with his presence allows him to just take command of any given situation. It is his natural gift. But, with that being said, he is miserable with his life! Because he wanted to be an architect not an engineer.
I have told him on one occasion that he is an architect, he just works through a different medium. His only joy as far as I can tell is cooking. What amazes me is that this man was given this talent in life and he doesn't see it or care for it. My point is, if he would accept this talent as life’s gift he would be so much more happy. IMHO.
I have resolved a few of these issues in my life by Meditating on ATU-5 & ATU-14. I do my best to continually remind myself that I work for God. Life's Will, not my will but my HGA will. That is what is in control. Nothing at the personality level is running the show. So I am told and so I believe from my personal work. My work is to trust life under the guidance of the HGA ATU-14. I also, have to remind my self that my work is a necessary contribution to life. Maybe what I am getting at Dave is surrendering to an objective view of (Tiphareth) instead of a subjective one filled with emotional turmoil at the (Yesodic) level of the personally.
David, I don’t mean to get personal or change the subject but are you or have you gone through a SATURN return lately?
Quote: Heru:
Members of the Order are to regard those without its pale as possessing no rights of any kind, since they have not accepted the Law, and are therefore, as it were, troglodytes, survivals of a past civilization, and to be treated accordingly. Kindness should be shown toward them, as toward any other animal, and every effort should be made to bring them into Freedom.I know the above quote relates to the O.T.O. But it's still spot on with Crowley's apparent stance on a two-tier society of masters and slaves.
I would like to present a different point of view of the above quote. What I am hearing is that A.C. is speaking of service to humanity. By helping humanity raise it’s consciousness from a Yesodic/animal level to that of Tiphareth/human level. I don’t think he was speaking of a two-tier society. IMO.
BTW, loved the toilet and donkey work analogous. I agree whole heartily.
Quote Chris Halon:
Frater Deen,
I got your point, but don't totally agree. It is true that we can go chase a mirage when the reality is right before us and therefore not choose what will ultimately bring us happiness.Chris, this reminds me of a episode of American Idol were this contestant was horrible and was told they would be better off doing something else. I agreed! The contestant then told everyone there, that one day he would be famous not matter what they said!
Then the guy ran out to his mother in tears and told her all the terrible thing that the judges told him!
The mother then hugged him and told the guy don’t worry baby one day you will be famous no matter what any one of those mean Judges say.
This guy may have had talent in some thing but, singing was not one of them! I think this was the first time someone ever gave the guy an honest opinion of his self proclaimed talent.
If we listen to our life, our life will tell us what we are cut out to do. Not what we would like to think we are cut out to do. BTW Chris, I am also a firm believer that everything is learned. We are not born knowing anything.
Love is the Law Love under Will.
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@Fraterdeen said
"Quote: Heru:
"Members of the Order are to regard those without its pale as possessing no rights of any kind, since they have not accepted the Law, and are therefore, as it were, troglodytes, survivals of a past civilization, and to be treated accordingly. Kindness should be shown toward them, as toward any other animal, and every effort should be made to bring them into Freedom."
I know the above quote relates to the O.T.O. But it's still spot on with Crowley's apparent stance on a two-tier society of masters and slaves."
I have no reason to believe this was his general view at all. The Law is for all. But I tend to put things in perspective for myself with what a friend of mine calls the "packing peanut" theory of society. You know what packing peanuts are, right? Those styrofoam pieces that finish filling up a box so that the valued thing inside will arrive safely?
Well, to the extent that people aren't willing to wake up and get who they are - aren't willing to rise to their own truth - they exist in society primarily as packing peanuts. Those who know and do their True Will are the contents of the box that the packing peanuts are helping get delivered safely. This isn't at all a slave-master society (for example) because people are picking their level and living it.
Besides: The slaves shall serve! The difference between a slave and a servant isn't in what they are doing but in whether they do it by choice. I take the above line from Liber L. as a promise that even those who are at present slaves shall become servants - the highest designation in the Mysteries. The means for this? Knowing and doing your True Will.
"I would like to present a different point of view of the above quote. What I am hearing is that A.C. is speaking of service to humanity. By helping humanity raise it’s consciousness from a Yesodic/animal level to that of Tiphareth/human level. I don’t think he was speaking of a two-tier society. IMO.
"As you can see, we basically agree.
"If we listen to our life, our life will tell us what we are cut out to do."
Yes!
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@Jim said
"This isn't at all a slave-master society (for example) because people are picking their level and living it."
I absolutely agree Jim. You just summarized in one sentence what I was TRYING to get at all along!
@Jim said
"Besides: The slaves shall serve! The difference between a slave and a servant isn't in what they are doing but in whether they do it by choice. I take the above line from Liber L. as a promise that even those who are at present slaves shall become servants - the highest designation in the Mysteries. The means for this? Knowing and doing your True Will. "
That beautiful Jim. When it come to articulating the Law you are in the stratosphere man.
@Jim said
"Servant- the highest designation in the Mysteries."
Wow!!
@Jim said
"The means for this? Knowing and doing your True Will."
Would this include Seeing the Unity of Life
Love is the Law Love under Will
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@Fraterdeen said
"
@Jim said
"The means for this? Knowing and doing your True Will."Would this include Seeing the Unity of Life
"That's often an (immediate or eventual) side-effect. But, for the specific level I mentioned, seeing the integrating Unity of oneself is more the step.
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@Her said
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@Jim Eshelman said
"I have no reason to believe this was his general view at all. The Law is for all."Really? Crowley's commentaries on the Book of the Law positively reek of Social Darwinism.
"I made that statement for a couple of reasons.
First, I don't read his (matured) underlying position as ever being different from standing for each being doing its Will - actualized and fulfilled.
Second, in much that he wrote (especially during the '20s), there is a tendency to rhetoric bordering on the ingenuous. He was always willing to make a point for the sake of impact. For example, what looks like, "Kick the bums when they're down" (which plays better for impact), is more of, "Let the chips fall where they may." (Actually, that's real social Darwinism.)
Nothing in that suggests to me that his actual general view was a two-tier master-slave class.