Why did Crowley reject Buddhism and Bennett reject Thelema?
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Edward, it's funny (in that coincidental sort of way) that you should choose these exact words in your response! First, your experience more or less sums up my own regarding my prolonged reservations about Crowley. Secondly, you mention how you kept getting drawn back to the Tree of Life. Same with me! Thirdly, you mention I can't decide because I already have. This last point I take perhaps in a slightly different way than you meant it: I have read a lot recently about the fact that we already have what we need; we simply have to let go of what we don't need. This really "rang a bell" with regards to the ideas of self-annihilation. I've been reading a lot of Vedanta and Buddhism along with my Qabalah studies and it seems clear they are all talking about the same thing: one who does not live, does not die; the One immortal Self exists not in life or death, but both and none. The past and the future exist in the unmanifest; the manifest is ever-decaying and ever becoming. When a tree dies, the life force has simply left the husk; just as the material tree continues to exist, though bereft of its life force, the life force also continues to exist. It does not die because there is no death. One can not point to death, one can only point to the act of dying.
What I find in common with all these teachings, is something which must be unavoidable and therefore already part of me, whether I can realize it or not. To quote from an Amazon list:
"They all say the world we perceive is an illusion, everything is “empty” but that there is a Ground of Being or Mind Itself or Nature of Mind that is both luminous and cognizant—the Source of emptiness, The Supreme Source: The Fundamental Tantra of the Dzogchen Semde. This parallels the Kabbalistic view of the emanations of the Sephiroth and is also consistent with the general Vajrayana practice of viewing the world as a Buddha field and people as deities."
This goes along with the Crowly's concept of treating every interaction as a direct communication with God. I know I'm not supposed to do this until I'm a Master of The Temple or something, but I've been doing it anyway.
Finally, I just want to express one last thing, which may not be obvious from the things I have said in the past or the manner in which I continue to post. I no longer have any real reservations about Thelema or Crowley that I can think of! I constantly turn to AC's work for inspiration and clarification. But, the fact is, his work is groundbreaking yet in a mostly derivative way; he is commenting on other religious traditions he assumes the reader to already be familiar with. And so, I do not study other religions because I don't trust Crowley, but so that I can understand him! It is funny, but he is often totally incomprehensible to me until I have gone and read several other books which are much more thorough, methodical and elaborate in their explanations. Then, I will come back to something of Crowley's and say, "OH, THAT'S WHAT HE MEANT!" You know, it may be a 4 line poem from the Book of Lies or something, that made absolutely no sense the first time I read it, but suddenly those 4 lines condense a whole lot of book larnin' into one simple thought that is easy to meditate on.
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@Draco Magnus said
"93, RF,
The point I am seeing is that Thelema supercedes all these laws, rules, principles and precepts. It is all encompassing, and the simplest. That is what I appreciate."
I guess this really is the heart of it. Knowing his incredible brainpower and desire to cut through b.s. to reduce Reality to its simplest Truth, I guess this is all his disagreement boils down to. So, he did away with what he saw as unnecessary, while a guy like Bennett saw the usefulness of the precepts and other Buddhist trappings.
... A thought just occured to me: if from now on, I do only what feels right to me (rather than following some commandments or precepts), what my conscience tells me is "right," would my life become easier? There is a "little voice" in everyone (except maybe sociopaths) that is quite easy to ignore... I've never made the experiment of always doing what "feels right" to me, otherwise I probably would never be employed anywhere for longer than a few weeks.
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93,
ReddFezz said:
"This goes along with the Crowly's concept of treating every interaction as a direct communication with God. I know I'm not supposed to do this until I'm a Master of The Temple or something, but I've been doing it anyway. "
I'm sure none of us is capable of doing that until we're 8=3 (or at least in a high Adept grade), simply because we aren't consciously aware enough of all that's going on. There's too much mental reactivity going on for us to be that observant.
But I think anyone with any level of serious aspiration would be taking note of obviously significant things, and recognizing certain patterns or rhythms. That's a key part of any spiritual work. So I wouldn't think anyone is "not supposed to be doing this."
93 93/93,
Edward
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93,
"I don't like the idea of leaving a part of me behind. I understand, at least very simply, the idea of transcending the ego when crossing the Abyss. But it strikes me that if one were to cross the Abyss and surrender, that all those elements of you that are below, would be left without Life. They truly would be shells."
Honestly, at least in my own experience, it is nowhere near that "cerebral." I mean this is armchair theory to talk about it. But up close the level of decision isn't 'surface' stuff, it's pretty profoundly deep.
On the bright side, I don't think most people run into this until it's possible for them anyway. I think if a person went into that experience and couldn't continue they would be left insane in varying degrees; too far in without completion I think they'd die. That was my overwhelming feeling upon reflection after it, in any case (I am certainly no expert on these topics).
Anyway my point is I don't think there is any need to worry about it, because I don't think there is any kind of conscious decision or intellectualization you could come up with now, in planning, that can begin to touch the deeper parts of you at that point.
93 93/93,
RC -
@Redd Fezz said
"This goes along with the Crowly's concept of treating every interaction as a direct communication with God. I know I'm not supposed to do this until I'm a Master of The Temple or something, but I've been doing it anyway."
Just a small aside: I think it's a common misconception that "treating every interaction as a direct communication with God" is identical with taking the Oath of the Abyss. Crowley's Oath of the Abyss had 10 points, of which this is one. But this practice comes from the Golden Dawn, and has been recommended to ordinary aspirants by people ranging from Ann Davies to Louis Culling. -
@gmugmble said
"Just a small aside: I think it's a common misconception that "treating every interaction as a direct communication with God" is identical with taking the Oath of the Abyss. Crowley's Oath of the Abyss had 10 points, of which this is one. But this practice comes from the Golden Dawn, and has been recommended to ordinary aspirants by people ranging from Ann Davies to Louis Culling."
Excellent point. I'd like to fine-tune it.
That wasn't Crowley's Oath of the Abyss. That was his Oath of the 8=3 Grade of Master of the Temple. Different things.
And yes, that particular clause - Clause 10, referring to Malkuth - describes a process that is extremely active earlier. It's common as a central feature of 5=6. (I'm tempted to say it's nearly universal, but we're cautious discussing anyone else's 5=6 process.) It's a natural p.o.v. in 1=10, in fact.
I remember early on in my A.'.A.'. work that I felt an internal pressure to commit to interpreting each phenomenon as a particular dealing of God with my soul. The pressure was strong, and was matched by a fear of prematurely hurling myself into the Abyss. Soror Meral praised my good sense but made clear that the fear had served its purpose as an alarm mechanism and I didn't need it any longer. "Don't take an oath," she chuckled. "Just do the practice."
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Don't take an oath," she chuckled. "Just do the practice.""
Oh, yes. That too Actually, at one point I turned Crowley's whole 8 = 3 oath into a sort of 10 commandments. It didn't seem dangerous since I wasn't taking an oath, just encouraging myself to adopt certain attitudes.Since I've derailed this thread (I didn't mean too -- the preceding discussion was quite interesting and valuable to me), let me bring something else up. Ann Davies says somewhere (probably her book on the tarot) that when you "treat every phenomenon as a dealing of God with your soul", the soul in question is nephesh. I suppose is could be nephesh, ruach, or even neshamah at different stages of the game.
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The word "soul" in that phrase does mean Nephesh - even in the 8=3 oath.
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@JPF said
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@Jim Eshelman said
" The pressure was strong, and was matched by a fear of prematurely hurling myself into the Abyss. "Is it possible to do such a thing?"
Yes. One can, for example, start dismantling the ego (or one's linkages to it) before it is fully developed and matured. It's possible to go the Nietzsche route of hurling oneself into the void without having an unequivocal link to the Supernal - something that is corrected when the K&C of the HGA is full and secure before the approach.
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JAE, 93,
"hurling oneself into the void without having an equivocal link to the Supernal "
Did you mean to use 'equivocal' here? If so, could you expand on why you used that adjective?
93 93/93,
Edward
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I absolutely meant to type 'equivocal.' Of course, I also meant to put un- in front of it. I suppose I'll go back and do that right now.
(I do write most of this stuff while doing three other things at once, and get interrupted a lot. I've already stopped and handled two micro-crises between these two paragraphs. So it's usually "fingers on blurt mode.")
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JAE 93,
You've just never mastered constructive goofing off.
93 93/93,
Edward
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@JPF said
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@Jim Eshelman said
" The pressure was strong, and was matched by a fear of prematurely hurling myself into the Abyss. "Is it possible to do such a thing?"
Yes. One can, for example, start dismantling the ego (or one's linkages to it) before it is fully developed and matured. It's possible to go the Nietzsche route of hurling oneself into the void without having an unequivocal link to the Supernal - something that is corrected when the K&C of the HGA is full and secure before the approach."
Did you mean "Nietzsche"?
I like this post a lot Mr. Eshelman, it warns against the spiritual equivalent of a drug-induced dementia/addiction due to inadequate preparation and understanding. It is most important to "know thyself" BEFORE undertaking any great spiritual measures; Liber E, etc.. -
@Jim Eshelman said
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@JPF said
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@Jim Eshelman said
" The pressure was strong, and was matched by a fear of prematurely hurling myself into the Abyss. "Is it possible to do such a thing?"
Yes. One can, for example, start dismantling the ego (or one's linkages to it) before it is fully developed and matured. It's possible to go the Nietzsche route of hurling oneself into the void without having an unequivocal link to the Supernal - something that is corrected when the K&C of the HGA is full and secure before the approach."
Ah. Now that I consider it, it seems that a great deal of "psychedelic casualties" fall into this category. It also seems that a great many mental illnesses can be explained by this phenomenon.
And Nietzche is an excellent example. His letters from after his madness illustrate the term "dismantled ego" perfectly.
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I think I need to correct some of the posts. Alan Bennet was NOT a tibetan buddhist...he was a thai buddhist which is a completely different way of practice. There are no gods that are worshipped. And it is a very simple and clear path, if I met crowley I wouldnt want to get wrapped up in his ego trips either lol. Anyway the main text of buddhism is the dammapada which is a short text that everyone really should read. Its pretty sad that most buddhist schools do not use that text even though it is the most authentic buddhist text.
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93
@darrene2002 said
"Alan Bennet was NOT a tibetan buddhist...he was a thai buddhist"
Bhikku Ananda Metteyya studied and received ordination in Myanmar. Both Thai and Burmese Buddhism are Theravada but there are differences.
@darrene2002 said
"Anyway the main text of buddhism is the dammapada which is a short text that everyone really should read. Its pretty sad that most buddhist schools do not use that text even though it is the most authentic buddhist text."
Only in the Pali Canon, and therefore to Theravada Buddhism. Mahayana and Vajrayana are considerably different paths from the original Theravada, and each have their own rich literary traditions.
93 93/93
A.
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@seekinghga said
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I like this post a lot Mr. Eshelman, it warns against the spiritual equivalent of a drug-induced dementia/addiction due to inadequate preparation and understanding. It is most important to "know thyself" BEFORE undertaking any great spiritual measures; Liber E, etc.."Quite right. I had to renounce intoxicants for some time after a Nietzche-like experience. Luckily, after a long period of spirtual penance, I've come back to my faculties. Some haven't been quite so lucky.