The end of the Christian Era.
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I agree with Jim that Thelema is a continuation of what Christianity set out to do, but I feel it is also an emodiment, and to some extent, an amalgamation of the "Big Three" and ofcourse, the mystery traditions of the ancients.
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I just want to say thank you to a bunch of sane people. This discussion comes up in one form or another on a lot of different boards, and with the exception of one or two lone voices, the dicussion almost always degrades into a degree of hate mongering. Fueled by anti-chirstian sentiment, and a complete lack of understanding regarding the underpinnings of Christianity's influence as a predecessor to the "religion" of the new Aeon, be it Thelema, or some other upstart
Christ's only official commandment: "...is that ye Love one another"Let us all just remember to not become nominal Thelemites or worse yet Crowleyans.
Life Love Liberty Light
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93 All,
First off. I would like to thank every one for there response.
I would also like to give special thanks to Auger. He hit the nail on the head about condescending attitudes in many circles, including Christian ones! I always like to point out that there are a lot of churches and groups that are doing good work in the world. Work, which a lot of us couldn’t or wouldn’t want to do with the masses. I believe it is naïve to think that Christianity at this time doesn’t serve a specific evolutionary level. Just my thoughts.
In my attempt to reconcile Thelema and Christianity, the first thing that comes to my mind is the central mystery of each tradition.
It is my understanding that the central mystery of Christianity is the resurrection which we should first experience it through ritual and later through direct experience.
What I am not sure about is the central mystery of Thelema.So, this is my question. What is the central mystery of Thelema? Or maybe better yet, The Central Mystery of Thelema as presented by Temple of Thelema?
Love is the Law Love under Will
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@Fraterdeen said
"What I am not sure about is the central mystery of Thelema."
Every man and every woman is a star.
Often replaced by the equivalent (but less complete): Deus est homo.
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Different phrase - different intent. Deus est homo - "God is man [humanity]."
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@Fraterdeen said
"93 All,
I have a question and I am curious what everyone on this forum may think about it.
Is Thelema a continuation of Christianity or a displacement of it?
My personal opinion is that the two can be reconciled.
Love is the Law Love under Will."
It's a complex question because IMO "christianity" means the entire Church structure not just the 4 gospels. Besides did Jesus actually walk the Earth? Surely JG Frazer put a stake through that (Dying God) myth. ?IMO Wilhelm Reich has an interesting perspective on this. In his "Listen little man" he rants about why we did not listen to the simplicity in the teachings of "Jesus" but in his Mass Psychology of Facism he cites that christianity contains codes which insidiously set out to damage the psyche and unconsciously bludgeons folk into accepting the (horrors of the ) Patriarchy. In fact he cites Nazism in all it's manifestations as the natural offspring of christianity; the natural inevitable outcome.
Thelema on the other hand is the antithesis of christianity and fascism because in christianity it's all about espousing "Love" but from a totally weak and false standpoint. i.e. for Love one needs Will more to the point Love under Will so yes in a cetain sense i think Thelema rationally completes/makes real the fake message of christianity but christianity in and of itself is of the black obsolete aeon of sin guilt, masochism,dark ages and fascism.
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@gerry456 said
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@Fraterdeen said
"Thelema on the other hand is the antithesis of christianity and fascism because in christianity it's all about espousing "Love" but from a totally weak and false standpoint. i.e. for Love one needs Will more to the point Love under Will"
"This brings up an interesting discussion question: What exactly is "Love" in thelema, and how is it best expressed? What does it mean to have Love under will? In Bible translations often times Love is translated as Charity. Right or wrong, in Christianity we know that Charity is usually how love is expressed in the religion. I don't often hear of thelemic philanthropy, so how is it usually expressed or understood.
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@DavidH said
"What exactly is "Love" in thelema, and how is it best expressed?"
As best as I understand it, Love means the uniting and transcending of opposites. "Let there be no difference made among you between any one thing and any other thing; for thereby there cometh hurt."
So far, I interpret its expression in every-day life as a Taoist-like detachment from actions and experiences. "But whoso availeth in this, let him be the chief of all!"
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@jmiller said
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@DavidH said
"What exactly is "Love" in thelema, and how is it best expressed?"As best as I understand it, Love means the uniting and transcending of opposites. "Let there be no difference made among you between any one thing and any other thing; for thereby there cometh hurt."
So far, I interpret its expression in every-day life as a Taoist-like detachment from actions and experiences. "But whoso availeth in this, let him be the chief of all!""
93!
I would not think that "Detachment" is really a standard Thelemic practice. It seems more the opposite, that is a total emersion into all experience and action. Or perhaps I misunderstand your meaning of detachment?
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@DavidH said
"I would not think that "Detachment" is really a standard Thelemic practice. It seems more the opposite, that is a total emersion into all experience and action. Or perhaps I misunderstand your meaning of detachment?"
I deleted the sentence that would have clarified it. I modified detachment by saying that it wasn't one in which we deny emotion, pleasure, or pain. Crowley's versification of <em>Tao Te Ching</em> had a big impact on my understanding of Will.
Like Arjuna (I know, it's not an example from the Tao Te Ching), we might, if it be our Will, go ahead and fight our cousins and friends. We shouldn't moralize it. We needn't take pleasure in it either; go ahead and feel the horror of war and experience it to the fullest. But don't judge this experience or decision as distinct from the decision of the person who refuses to fight because it violates her Will. But this also isn't saying that all actions are equal. Actions must be in accordance with one's Will, about which most of us have no clue. Love under will.
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@DavidH said
"I would not think that "Detachment" is really a standard Thelemic practice."
I disagree. Detachment is, for example, a Buddhist or Taoist position, and a block of Crowley's writings were Buddhist-influenced for a time and Taoist-influenced later. Additionally, detachment is a characteristic of some advanced stages in the A.'.A.'., but that isn' Thelemic per se.
Thelema - using Liber L. as the guide - is much easier to describe as passionate (notwithstanding 2:22).
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@gerry456 said
"Thelema on the other hand is the antithesis of christianity and fascism because in christianity it's all about espousing "Love" but from a totally weak and false standpoint. i.e. for Love one needs Will more to the point Love under Will so yes in a cetain sense i think Thelema rationally completes/makes real the fake message of christianity but christianity in and of itself is of the black obsolete aeon of sin guilt, masochism,dark ages and fascism."
"Love under will" does not necessarily mean that, as you put it, "for Love one needs Will". It could mean, for instance, that Love is the foundation of Will.
In what way is the Love taught by Christianity "totally weak"?
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In what way is the Love taught by Christianity "totally weak"?"
No endurance. False charity. There is no scientific system of trans-ego attainment in christianity other than praying and being "moral" i.e. going to church on a Sunday and bearing with the monotonous sermon. In Thelema the boks of instruction have been laid out for those who want to work therefore it is practical and functional i.e. the antithesis of weakness / inaction.
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@gerry456 said
"There is no scientific system of trans-ego attainment in christianity other than praying and being "moral" i.e. going to church on a Sunday and bearing with the monotonous sermon."
...and the specific techniques and training of the likes of Molinos, St. John of the Cross, and St. Theresa.
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@gerry456 said
"In what way is the Love taught by Christianity "totally weak"?"
"No endurance. False charity. "
Yes, agreed for the most, but the Christian scriptures (Christ) warns against this "false charity" many times. Using some idiot who does not follow what was actually taught is like making negative comments on Thelema because of something you saw an OTO member do.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@gerry456 said
"There is no scientific system of trans-ego attainment in christianity other than praying and being "moral" i.e. going to church on a Sunday and bearing with the monotonous sermon."...and the specific techniques and training of the likes of Molinos, St. John of the Cross, and St. Theresa."
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which were formulated from reliance upon the premise of faith, piety,original sin and salvation?not method of science ; aim of religion
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@DavidH said
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@gerry456 said
"In what way is the Love taught by Christianity "totally weak"?""No endurance. False charity. "
Yes, agreed for the most, but the Christian scriptures (Christ) warns against this "false charity" many times. Using some idiot who does not follow what was actually taught is like making negative comments on Thelema because of something you saw an OTO member do.
"yes that's it! Christ in general IMO just preached he didn't really teach a systematic method like the yogis hence the "followers" of christ are left with no basis for attaining genuine self-awareness.
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@gerry456 said
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@gerry456 said
"There is no scientific system of trans-ego attainment in christianity other than praying and being "moral" i.e. going to church on a Sunday and bearing with the monotonous sermon."...and the specific techniques and training of the likes of Molinos, St. John of the Cross, and St. Theresa."
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which were formulated from reliance upon the premise of faith, piety,original sin and salvation?not method of science ; aim of religion"
I'm not sure they were, but...
A premise of faith, piety, original sin, and salvation is as a good a premise for empirical testing as any other.
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@gerry456 said
"yes that's it! Christ in general IMO just preached he didn't really teach a systematic method like the yogis hence the "followers" of christ are left with no basis for attaining genuine self-awareness.
"I remain agnostic as to whether there was an actual historic figure on whom the Christ stories were based, though I suspect there was.
If there was, then there is more than a little reason to suspect that he did indeed teach a systematic approach - but not to the public, only to his inner circle. The scriptural figure is pretty much a match for the wandering yogi of a few hundred miles further east, and that would be the pattern of the type.
