Faith
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I believe there is no room for faith in Thelema. It is science and Thelema deals with facts. Crowley was not an obscure figure who supposedly rose from the dead.he was real man with issues like all of us. That's what makes Thelema so wonderful Beautiful and intelligent. Aiwas gave us The Word, Crowley gave us the facts the exact way it was dictated. Not one word changed. Facts,, not stories. Faith is for the blind,,we as Thelemites can see,whether its pretty or not. 93/93 93 AGAPE.. Frater Nocturnus
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@damian blackthorn said
"I believe there is no room for faith in Thelema. It is science and Thelema deals with facts."
I hve to take a moment to disagree with this.
There is a tendency for people to confuse (a) Thelema, (b) the work and practices of Aleister Crowley, and (b) the A.'.A.'.. Though these overlap, one shouldn't confuse one with the other.
For example, principals of the A.'.A.'. put out a journal called The Equinox which adopted the motto, "The method of science, the aim of religion." That's not even an A.'.A.'. motto per se - it's the motto of The Equinox. It does, however, overlap with the A.'.A.'.'s self-description (under the founders of the modern system) as Scientific Illuminism.
Even here, that shouldn't be confused with Thelema. At the time that A.'.A.'. foundation was established, The Equinox began publication, and that motto was adopted, Crowley hadn't accepted Thelema. They were taking a strict Scientific Illuminism approach that made no public mention of Thelema and held even The Book of the Law back until Second Order!
Thelema is the philosophy the A.'.A.'. currently employs, but the two shouldn't be confused. It's just the current fad (for a few centuries
).Thelema per se is no more a science than, say, Shintoism is a science.
"Faith is for the blind,,we as Thelemites can see,whether its pretty or not."
This, of course, depends on how you define "faith." I define it as the language of Neshamah, in which case it is the essence of what we're all about. I suspect you are using it to mean, "Just believe, fucker, don't ask for proof, don't think about it," etc.; and I would agree with you that this sort of thinking isn't likely to produce very good results.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"I define it as the language of Neshamah, in which case it is the essence of what we're all about."
I would certainly say that in the 'hierarchy' of words, the idea of Faith is pretty high up there.
A kind of thing that occurs all the time without you really thinking about it. When you try to, the attempt to understand it gunks up its conscious meaning.
My first reading of the Law was also my first encounter with the concept. Reading the book, I found exactly what I was looking for. Faith, whispered in my ear all the answers. But! That does not mean I understood them all, I simply have Faith (and what she told me).
There is my "everything is meaningless" shtick, but that is objectively.
I am all about the subjective!
eye
ee
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Jim, would this also apply to Mathers' prefatory remarks in The Scared Book of Abramelin the Mage being:
"an encouragement to that most rare and necessary quality, unshaken faith;"
"for of all hindrances to Magical action, the very greatest and most fatal is unbelief, for it checks and stops the action of the Will."
"the absolute necessity of unshaken faith in order to produce a Magical effect."
TIA,
Mike
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@Nudor said
"Jim, would this also apply to Mathers' prefatory remarks in The Scared Book of Abramelin the Mage being:
"an encouragement to that most rare and necessary quality, unshaken faith;"
"for of all hindrances to Magical action, the very greatest and most fatal is unbelief, for it checks and stops the action of the Will."
"the absolute necessity of unshaken faith in order to produce a Magical effect.""
I can't speak for what Mathers meant. But I will give an opinion on the above.
He appears to be using "faith" in the common sense, in which it means confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing, etc. While this has value, it isn't what I was talking about. He seems to mean, more or less, confidence and perseverance.
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So it seems then there are three definitions of faith.
Blind faith (embracing without discrimination)
Faith (certainty)
and True (enduring) Faith (means of direct perception through Neshamah)
Most people assume the first, but this discussion is about the third. The faith I mentioned from Mather's introduction must be of the second type, faith as certainty. (One can't go in blind...)
But my new question generated from this discussion is, does the True enduring Faith (perception) relate in any way to True Will. Or to push it further, is it True Will?
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93,
Nudoro wrote:
"But my new question generated from this discussion is, does the True enduring Faith (perception) relate in any way to True Will. Or to push it further, is it True Will?"
I think we only express True Will when Faith is active, or via a Faith-based perception. To the extent we are tuned into Neshamah, that governs how True (real, connected, grounded, complete) our expression of the Will is.
Otherwise, we are just expressing mundane will, or at least confusing egoic ideas with True Will intuitions.
The real problem for most of us is that such Neshamah/Faith-based action can't be made subject to reason, or we are back in Ruach-based action. That is valid in many situations, of course, but it will be "Half-True Will" at best. We are, in such circumstances, using reason in the sense: "If Will stops and cries Why, invoking Because, then Will stops & does nought." (AL II, v 30)
93 93/93,
EM
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The Biblical concept of 'Faith', or 'the Faith' (pistis) corresponds to the modernistic sociological term 'Worldview'. It simply implies one's perceptions, beliefs, and views concerning the nature himself and the world around him.
Every human being has a 'faith'. The meaning is that simple and that profound.
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Ive always regarded "Faith" as an active force in the human reperatoire. Faith is something you use in order to not fall into a despair situation.
I have faith that the company I work for will not close so I still care about the products I produce. As example.
In this context it would be the same as passive prayer and excercising some form of will.
I could be extremely ignorant of course as I have barely read anything. -
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
Hate to get all autobio on such a pure discussion, but this leads to a practical question: If one has little faith (in the sense that Jim is describing), how does one acquire more? What about zero faith?
I can now reach a state of mild faith in what I'm doing magically, but it was a long baren road. And, in my case, it required a catalyst of physical evidence to get the ball rolling.
I still struggle when doing daily practices to get into the proper attitude. My default setting is a sort of childish "prove it" attitude, which effects greatly the work I'm trying to do. Obviously, building a relationship with the Neschamah would be key, but the effectiveness of the practices that are supposed to accomplish this seem to be related to the amount of faith present to begin with. (Practicing the non-acceptance of gifts seems to help a little.)
Any thoughts on the most effective way to escape this negative feedback loop?
Love is the law, love under will
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
Well, looks like I certianly killed that post.
Seriously, no one wants to venture any advice on the practical acquisition of this special kind of spritual certainty? The effects of stubborn disbelief? Nothing?
Love is the law, love under will.
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You can't fake it. You can take a leap into it ("open-eyed blind faith," so to speak) as a practice in "as-if" thinking or even totally abandoning doubt.
Ultimately, the only way I know to acquire it is through prolonged experience; and the actual acquisition of this unshakable certainty comes from the Knowledge & Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel.
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@jlpugh said
"Well, looks like I certianly killed that post. "
They never die... only sleeping...
"Seriously, no one wants to venture any advice on the practical acquisition of this special kind of spritual certainty? The effects of stubborn disbelief? Nothing?"
I thought about replying last week (or whenever it was), but I hesitated because I haven't had those direct and "advanced" gnostic experiences that propel one into certainty.
But I can tell you that I take a great deal of comfort (a close cousin of faith?) from the knowledge that these experiences are even possible to have. People are having them. The strict atheist/materialist would say that these experiences are some combination of wishful thinking, psychotic breaks, or induced hallucinations -- and nothing more. (I admit the possibility that they may be comprised, in some part, of such physical ingredients.)
The fact that the textbook "mystical experience" cuts across such a wide cultural and historical landscape demonstrates its reality and that it can be thought of, in some sense, as the "birthright" of all human beings. The A.'.A.'. system goes farther in systematizing the access (mapping out the paths up the mountain, if you will). By developing the Will, it also shows how one can move beyond just having isolated "cookie-like" experiences and improve one's overall, outward life.
(This is not a paid advertisement.)
Even if I, personally, only make it up a few foothills, I know that the hardier travelers are going higher, and that those peaks do exist.
For me, that might just be enough.
Oh, and at least my brand of "faith" outlined above comes without the need for literal belief in external spirits, natal astrology, reincarnation, or other bits of paranormality. YMMV.
Steve
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
(By the way, I write this out everytime instead of the typical 93 just as a personal reminder, nothing more.)
@Jim Eshelman said
"You can't fake it. You can take a leap into it ("open-eyed blind faith," so to speak) as a practice in "as-if" thinking or even totally abandoning doubt."
You mean by consciously asking yourself "what would it mean to me if these angels were as real as that truck..." kind of exercise?
By totally abandoning doubt... I guess that implies that the doubt is fully conscious? My doubt seems to be a tireless sentinel on the "lower"
edge of my consciousness. If I lull it to sleep, my practices are greatly improved, but it is always there working underneath me. Perhaps I need to first draw a line around it, so to speak, and define where it differs from the rest of me?@Jim Eshelman said
"Ultimately, the only way I know to acquire it is through prolonged experience; and the actual acquisition of this unshakable certainty comes from the Knowledge & Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel. "
Still a ways from the HGA. Surely, the acquisition of spirit vision will do me in before then, at 1=10 or so? How could I walk around with the ability to see non-physical things and not have the utmost certainty? Or, perhaps I've misunderstood a finer point here.
Love is the law, love under will.
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@Steven Cranmer said
"The strict atheist/materialist would say that these experiences are some combination of wishful thinking, psychotic breaks, or induced hallucinations -- and nothing more."
If I thought this were the case, I would simply take it as justification to teach wishful thinking, psychotic breaks, and induced hallucinations as method.
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@jlpugh said
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@Jim Eshelman said
"You can't fake it. You can take a leap into it ("open-eyed blind faith," so to speak) as a practice in "as-if" thinking or even totally abandoning doubt."You mean by consciously asking yourself "what would it mean to me if these angels were as real as that truck..." kind of exercise? "
If that's what it takes - but less intellectually. "As-if Thinking" doesn't require that you accept that a thing is so. It only requires that you act and think entirely as if it were so, and see where that, as a practice, takes you.
Another clue: Whereas scepticism needs to be applied to inner experiences, this should be analysis after the fact, not during the experience. Have the experience - then analyze the experience - don't try to do both at once.
"By totally abandoning doubt... I guess that implies that the doubt is fully conscious? My doubt seems to be a tireless sentinel on the "lower"
edge of my consciousness. If I lull it to sleep, my practices are greatly improved, but it is always there working underneath me. Perhaps I need to first draw a line around it, so to speak, and define where it differs from the rest of me? "This will be healed in time by actual experience.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Ultimately, the only way I know to acquire it is through prolonged experience; and the actual acquisition of this unshakable certainty comes from the Knowledge & Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel. "Still a ways from the HGA. Surely, the acquisition of spirit vision will do me in before then, at 1=10 or so? How could I walk around with the ability to see non-physical things and not have the utmost certainty? Or, perhaps I've misunderstood a finer point here. "
Something I should have said in the prior post is that this "faith" is a result more than a method. It can be a method, and that's what you're struggling with - but it's especially a result of the deeper levels of work.
As for the astral work - I don't think the utmost certainty of them is a particularly a good idea. One should consider such experiences relevant more than "true." They may, in fact be true (except that, as Yetziratic phenomena, they don't partake of All-Truth). With astral work you want to confirm the visions - their correspondence to certain aspects of consciousness - without validating their veracity. (If nothing else, this is a process of learning different relationships to the true-ness of things. The best example I can think of is that an accountant may be able to confirm that you've filled out your tax papers correctly - meaning, in the fashion required by the form - without validating that you've provided correct information. Similarly, you can have an authentic experience based on wrong premises, e.g., nightmares arising from anxieties that are unjustified. This doesn't compromise the integrity of the dream per se, or the value of analyzing it.)
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@Steven Cranmer said
"...some combination of wishful thinking, psychotic breaks, or induced hallucinations...."If I thought this were the case, I would simply take it as justification to teach wishful thinking, psychotic breaks, and induced hallucinations as method."
The first time I read Liber Jugorum, it certainly seemed like an instruction manual for methodically driving oneself crazy!Steve
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93
If I may be so bold as to offer my idea; faith and doubt are the twin edges of the sword of the magician. Each has its time and its uses, and is only complete with the complement of the other.
Example: Fr. F.D. has a vision, scrying the Queen of Cups. She gives him a formula of magick. He has enough faith in his own ability to treat this as a legitimate manifestation of something. However, with doubt, he analyzes the vision for its essential correspondences, and likewise the formula. Assuming these tests prove the vision to be harmonious with the force invoked, he then develops a sort of informed faith in those parts of the vision or formula that he has not yet been able to understand.
In my experience, faith is necessary at the time of working, lest the will be divided against success by one's doubt. There is no place for doubt while performing the invocations. The time for doubt is later, particularly if any beings contacted have the potential to alter the aspirant's life. Of course, as there is always this possibility, doubt should always ensure that we confirm the validity of our messengers, as well as the value of their messages.
Faith and doubt are but two phases of mind, and so are imperfect. To attach oneself too firmly to one or the other is to deny some possible means of expression of one's potential. "Balance in excess" may be the appropriate formula to express here... Indeed, we have Liber 30 to tell us all about balance, and Liber Legis to express the propriety of excess. "Exceed!"
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