Women in Thelema
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@kuniggety said
"Crowley presented Thelema as solar oriented which holds a stronger pull for males."
Did Crowley hold the spermist point of view on reproduction, that each sperm encased a homunculus/proto-human of itself (some of his statements seem to reflect this- like "sacrificing children")? The concept of the zygote as a more equal fusing of sperm and egg was still relatively new in biology (1875); I've been curious for a while if Crowley was aware of it (I would assume so after two decades), and if so, why he kept the phallic lean.
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@jw said
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@kuniggety said
"Crowley presented Thelema as solar oriented which holds a stronger pull for males."Did Crowley hold the spermist point of view on reproduction, that each sperm encased a homunculus/proto-human of itself (some of his statements seem to reflect this- like "sacrificing children")? The concept of the zygote as a more equal fusing of sperm and egg was still relatively new in biology (1875); I've been curious for a while if Crowley was aware of it (I would assume so after two decades), and if so, why he kept the phallic lean."
From what I have read it seems as though fatherhood is the complete task of creation.
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@jw said
"Did Crowley hold the spermist point of view on reproduction, that each sperm encased a homunculus/proto-human of itself"
That was the standard medical position during his youth and early adulthood (and, in most places, well into his adulthood - I've seen medical textbooks teaching this as late as the 1920s). Most of Crowley's metaphors etc. make the most sense viewed through that lens.
So, to answer your question: Probably, at least during segments of his life.
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I would think that Crowley's way of thinking was a bit more complex that the humanculus theory.
He states a belief that the child is shaped by events prior to and during the act of conception, physically and astrally. That the woman is seen as an environment for gestation of course, but also the sort of environment she provides shapes the development of the child.
I would say Crowley's view of sperm is like that of a seed, and the womb is like that of the soil in which the seed develops. The seed does not merely rest in the ground and unfurl itself as a tree. The seed merges totally with the soil, it takes in nutrient matter from the earth and builds the tree out of that.
Thus, the sperm, merges with the it's female counter part of the womb, (even without knowledge of ovum cells) the sperm uses the womans body to build the body of the child, and it uses the womans astral body to shape the astral layers of the child.
Thus, as important as it is for a man to fortify his body and purify his spirit in order to produce the potent talisman of the desired effect (via exercise and ritual), It is just as important for the woman to fortify herself, body and spirit in order to build the most effective vessel for that talisman.
If we think of the Golem, the male provides the spark of life, he conjures the spirits in the names of GOD and condenses them in the scroll of life.
However, it is the woman who must devote herself to the construction of the stature from inert clay. She who must shape and consentrate physical matter into a shape and form that will best support and carry the spark of life into the world.
So then, since in a way, conception always means the union of a spirit with matter. It would seem that the greatest world would be to conceive a child that contains a talisman of one's own WILL and is formed in a worm prepared to forge a body capable of performing that WILL.
Thus, the greatest work of magick, would be to embody one's own HGA the Flesh.
The conception of the Horus child.
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You know...I have on-again and off-again had the idea of having a private "something" (chat board? monthly tea? I dunno what...) for Thelemic women to get together and discuss issues that pertain specifically to us. I think it's so important that we connect.
For example, you've all certainly noticed that no woman--to my knowledge, of course there may be one posting right now--responded to the "Blood of the Moon" post. Every woman I have discussed it with looked at me in askance when I brought it up, wondering why so many men felt the need to respond to the magical nature of menstral blood and who authorized them to do so. It did not feel comfortable or safe for a woman--or me, at least--to put her two cents in, and yet, what a mystical, magical part of our lives! What great discussion could come out of that if we did feel comfortable and safe, talking about our magical, creatrix selves. To quote Edward, "Men also, IMHO, are often (not always) better at being abusive on-line, and thus more intimidating. Some discussions leave women wanting to remain silent." That is a truism, at least in my case. Maybe we need a Babylon Board on here...?
Whenever I've brought this issue--that there doesn't seem to be a lot of Thelemic women around to talk to--up in the past (to men, of course), they always bring up the litany of Thelemic women who have come before me (see just about every post above
). And, of course, the fact that I study Thelema from "the woman that Jim started ToT with", to paraphrase DavidH. However, what they don't think about when they tell me these things is that a list doesn't help me connect with others like me, or give me a forum to talk to people like me about issues that affect us both.Ok, I just wrote a whole lot more and then deleted it because I feel like I'm off topic. Which I probably was at the start.
Oh, and SophiaLux, I would love to chat with you!
Send me a PM! -
^ LOL! How refreshing! I completely agree, Andie (with just about everything you said there).
Thanks for all the comments everyone, and for the reading suggestions--I'm always looking for those.
Wanted to comment on this:
"Thelema is overtly solar oriented"
Oh yes, that's quite obvious. And, of course, I have no problems with this. I think its very valuable for women to embrace the solar principle (are we not all "men"?) In fact before discovering Thelema I was a disgruntled and disillusioned pseudo-Wiccan, but found the philosophy to be very lacking in many areas in which Thelema is obviously virile and strong.
But I wonder if the fact that this is a "solar-oriented philosophy" has mainly to do with the fact that its founder was a very powerful Man. And I wonder if women practicing Magick with a Thelemic bent might not come to very powerful but qualitatively different revelations than men on a similar path. I wonder what a truly inspired woman might offer to the community if less limited by traditions which favor the male view/way of doing things.
This is not to say that I explicitly disagree with anything I've seen put foth by Crowley or Thelemic organizations I've encountered. Rather I feel that women might be able to illuminate each other on the subject of various mysteries in ways that men might find impossible.
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@SophiaLux said
"But I wonder if the fact that this is a "solar-oriented philosophy" has mainly to do with the fact that its founder was a very powerful Man."
Actually, it was a blind for muggles.
Thelema was originally presented to AC (just before Liber Legis was dictated) as a new access of solar energies. But actually it is the group of pre-Thelemic Osirian religions that are inherently solar.
Thelema is inherently stellar. That is, it is solar not in the sense of "Me biggest thing and am center of all of you!" view (the Sun as seen in the framework only of our solar system), but rather than Sun a simply another star among myriad stars in the body of Nuit.
People need to work up to that. The distinctly solar aspect is a phase of personal evolution en route to the stellar perspective (since each person's individual conscious evolution has to retrace the path the species has taken (personal physical development retracing, over a couple of decades, the collective physical development of the species).
Perhaps for centuries yet to come, mass mind will continue to be predominantly Osirian. Crowley put forth Thelema as a distinctily solar religion specifically for the masses, not for the (few and far between) initiates.
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93 Andie!
@Andie said
"You know...I have on-again and off-again had the idea of having a private "something" (chat board? monthly tea? I dunno what...) for Thelemic women to get together and discuss issues that pertain specifically to us. I think it's so important that we connect."
I agree with you completely, Andie. Quite a while ago I remember asking Edward if there were many women within A.L. and other groups within our part of the Thelemic current. He pointed out the women who post on this Forum as some that I might get to know. Visiting LA and staying with you all really put that into perspective for me and it has been great to get to know other women within the group. I will plan my next trip around a time when Ana-Kria will be in town, though! <lol>
There is a female headspace, if you will, that is unique and immediately sensed and reacted to by other women. Getting another woman's view on something is qualitatively different than that of even the most sensitive man ... and that, to me, is what would make a womens' forum a welcome part of HeruRaHa. I would love to see it as a separate group within the larger entity.
That is not to devalue any of the other forums here, as I read, learn from, and treasure them all. It would just be a welcome option as well.
Just my two cents.
93s,
Donna -
93 all,
I was thinking about this thread this morning and I believe it would be awesome to see a compilation of Thelemic essays from various female Thelemites from all over the world. I would cop that book in a heartbeat.
93 93/93
Reef