Reincarnation
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As a matter of fact, I simply went to bed early. But it did occur to me before sleep that, as Some People Quickly Realize, trying to feed a narcissist's need for attention is a full-time job, and never a fulfilling one.
EM
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Nirbiraja, 93,
"Oh, you're a psychotherapist"
No, an observer. One of the first things taught in a proper mystery school is careful observation of the donkey we ride in on. And that teaches us in turn to observe others. You offer some rich and shining ideas, some contentious ideas and some clunkers like the thing about Hrumachis 'trumping' Ra-Hoor-Khuit. I don't think it matters to you what response you generate, nor how offensive - just so long as you're noticed and <i>get</i> responses. (So I must be making you happy
"and a Monotheist."
I find the vocabulary of monotheism a useful shorthand to play with. And I respect the concept in others if that's how they present their belief systems.
Why is this of such concern to you? I'm following my own path, but to you my core perspective needs a correction I've not asked you to provide. On what basis do you invite yourself into this position?
I'm suspicious. Your anti-monotheism seems just the same as monotheism, except in reverse: an obsession with a false idea that haunts you, while it intrigues but doesn't obsess me.
"Very well. I'm a school teacher."
Says who? I don't recall inviting you to teach me! Of course you will incidentally, but most of what you say seems morose. Actually, much of what you say is incomprehensible (like your recent answer to Ash on the Three Curses), and the <b>tone</b> is morose. If you're suggesting people emulate you, I would point out that it won't be in the positive sense - just that of avoiding the example you present.
Seriously - I don't get it. Why must you be equated with Jim Eshelman or anyone else? Why must you be acknowledged as a teacher, as someone who can steer us across the Abyss? If you can, you will. If you protest you can, then you probably can't. Why such an urgent need for recognition?
I end up back at seeing narcissism. That, I suggest, is the most entrapping kind of monotheism possible, since atheism is hardly an option in relation to ourselves.
93 93/93,
Edward
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@nirbiraja said
"The topic has long since ceased being about reincarnation. You've established you don't believe in it; you've established by way of a Freudian slip that you have interpreted Thelema in such a way so as to contradict it's more arcane and metaphysical aspects; and I honestly don't see a need in engaging you in a sort of bantering without a cause other than pushing your own unique metaphysic. If you want to create a thread specifically denoted to your pseudo-psychotherapy and/or projections to hide the fact that more than anything, you just can't fathom Thelema to be interpreted in a way other than your own, I'll happily engage you. But as it stands, I've you pegged; it's not the other way around. Do well to confront that, and we'll get along just fine."
And this, children, is a classic example of what we call Projection, or seeing in others what we cannot see in ourselves.
Here endeth the lesson.
Dan
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@Jim Eshelman said
"I have direct experiences which confirm, well beyond any reasonable doubt, the certainty of a stream of prior existences."
I take this to mean that you have memories of past lives, and that you have some external evidence that confirms the details of these memories. Could you (in the interests of scientific illuminism, say) elaborate on this? I don't want to invade your privacy or step on things you hold sacred. But in the kazillions of words that are written about the occult, magic, etc., there are many claims, but very few first-person descriptions of actual experiences, and I think this is a shame.
Also, what techniques did you use to acquire past life memories?
Thanks.
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@gmugmble said
"I take this to mean that you have memories of past lives, and that you have some external evidence that confirms the details of these memories. Could you (in the interests of scientific illuminism, say) elaborate on this? I don't want to invade your privacy or step on things you hold sacred. But in the kazillions of words that are written about the occult, magic, etc., there are many claims, but very few first-person descriptions of actual experiences, and I think this is a shame."
As you correctly discern, these are extremely personal so I'm going to decline to elaborate them in public. The people closest to me have access to the information.
"Also, what techniques did you use to acquire past life memories?"
There are specific methods of regression, and certain ways to act as a catalyst for this in others. But the largest block came efro eventually opened memory. As one progresses deeper into the grades of A.'.A.'. (or their equivalent), more and more aspects of one's being open up. Even the Path of Shin, which is worked by the Zelator often opens up time-independent memories.
Here's a trick, though - at least, it is so in my case and I bet it is fairly true for others. Aside from the fact that any particular prior life, under the right conditions, can be "jumped" to in the same way that you can "jump" to (say) a 7-year-old memory without tracing all the intervening time, there are interesting characteristics of linear memory of this sort. As an example. though I have pretty substantial memories of each of my two immediately prior lives, it is harder to jump straight back to two lives ago than it is to get there "through" the intervening one. That is, from my present perspective I can remember back to my immediately prior life, and he can apply the same thread to remember intimate details of the one before - things I wasn't able to get otherwise, perhaps because they aren't as relevant to my present life as they were to his.
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
What about "new" souls? How do they fit into these models?
It should be noted that, because of the way population increases, there must constantly be an influx of new souls to account for the number of human beings currently alive, even if every one currently living has had only one past life. (who claims only one?)
Just thought this was good theoretical fodder.
Perhaps this accounts for the few Thelemites who do not believe in reincarnation!
Another possibility would be that souls can split into parts between incarnations...?
Love is the law, love under will.
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@jlpugh said
"What about "new" souls? How do they fit into these models? "
I have known people who gave every indication of having their first human incarnation. Not their first incarnation - just their first human one. They may have come from the animal kingdom or, from their natures, more likely from one of the kingdoms of Elementals, having finally become a Microcosm.
"It should be noted that, because of the way population increases, there must constantly be an influx of new souls to account for the number of human beings currently alive, even if every one currently living has had only one past life. (who claims only one?) "
While I think there are, indeed, souls having their first human incarnations, I don't necessarily agree with the math part of what you've said. Beings could be incarnating more rapidly (less "down time"), for example. There are other possibilities.
"Just thought this was good theoretical fodder. "
Agreed.
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@jlpugh said
"Perhaps this accounts for the few Thelemites who do not believe in reincarnation!"
Say you live decades being familiar with one 'bubble' of memories. You have no frame of reference for any other bubble but your own. Every time you've remember something out of the blue, its been your memory (as far as you can tell). So if suddenly your mind becomes aware of other bubbles of memories, it seems natural that you would assume them to be your memories, right? If you choose (consciously or unconsciously) to identify with some bubble of memory, then reincarnation seems to be a pretty good explanation (especially if you come to the memories via temporal regression exercises). The concept still leaves the problem of explaining the seemingly persistent nature of memories. Part of me can't help but wonder though, if people with more knowledge of human history identify with more interesting or varied past lives that those ignorant of history.
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@jw said
"Say you live decades being familiar with one 'bubble' of memories. You have no frame of reference for any other bubble but your own. Every time you've remember something out of the blue, its been your memory (as far as you can tell). So if suddenly your mind becomes aware of other bubbles of memories, it seems natural that you would assume them to be your memories, right?"
Well, not necessarily. There is a very different feel between one's own memories and "just other images" that go through one's mind. For example, there is a big difference in the feel of remembering your own past or remembering the vivid, compelling story of a movie or literary character.
"Part of me can't help but wonder though, if people with more knowledge of human history identify with more interesting or varied past lives that those ignorant of history."
Good theory. Or, alternately, one at least is better able to recognize what one is seeing. - Of course, this doesn't explain memories that come arise years before one learns anything, by conventional means, about the period in question.
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
@Jim Eshelman said
"I have known people who gave every indication of having their first human incarnation. Not their first incarnation - just their first human one. They may have come from the animal kingdom or, from their natures, more likely from one of the kingdoms of Elementals, having finally become a Microcosm."
Cool. Did they get animal and/or elemental memories through the same kinds of regression used for past lives?
Hypothetically, could it be the case that your first human incarnation is also your last?
Love is the law, love under will.
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@jlpugh said
"Cool. Did they get animal and/or elemental memories through the same kinds of regression used for past lives? "
No. (Though I've had such memories myself, especially at one point in my early 20s when dozens of them came through.)
The individuals that come most vividly to mind seem to have come from the Elemental kingdoms (and to have retained their connection to the world of Fay or Deva).
Very young souls superficially resemble very mature souls. The superficial similarity is that they seem naturally connected to spiritual worlds. But for the very young souls this is because they have barely left them, have hardly emerged out of them. They have a tendency to be enormously curious and keenly alert, to have almost an idiot's capacity for natural happiness (and corresponding capacity to be deeply hurt). Even as adults, unless very badly treated as children, they carry a child-like sense of wonder, ability to smile, and ability to trigger a smile. Even when hurt, they tend to spring back with a child's resiliency pretty much regardless of their age. Etc.
"Hypothetically, could it be the case that your first human incarnation is also your last?"
Hypothetically? Sure. Do I think it has ever happened? No. We live hundreds of lives (which is a drop in the bucket in the time stream of our existence).
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@jw said
"Say you live decades being familiar with one 'bubble' of memories. You have no frame of reference for any other bubble but your own. Every time you've remember something out of the blue, its been your memory (as far as you can tell). So if suddenly your mind becomes aware of other bubbles of memories, it seems natural that you would assume them to be your memories, right?"Well, not necessarily. There is a very different feel between one's own memories and "just other images" that go through one's mind. For example, there is a big difference in the feel of remembering your own past or remembering the vivid, compelling story of a movie or literary character."
Well, typically one remembers a book or movie as an observer, not as a participant. If the memory bubble contains first-person memories (perhaps a residual memory of some prior individual drifting about in a collective unconsciousness), then it may account for the process. The backward momentum of the regression experiment may account for why these lives appear to be along a single line of succession (even if they aren't recalled in order). In other words, I'm not disputing that these may be memories of past lives; but I think there may be a difference between saying "I remember my past lives" and "I remember past lives". The "practical" application wouldn't be terribly different either way, except perhaps in one's attitude toward attachment to one's identity.
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Nature reuses everything, so why not the soul?
Little sister earth is just trying to be like big sis
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@jw said
"The "practical" application wouldn't be terribly different either way, except perhaps in one's attitude toward attachment to one's identity."
Agreed. Something I think I haven't said in any of the above, but which I say anytime I teach on the matter, conduct a regression, etc., is that one shouldn't necessarily regard what one gets as "real," but, rather, as "relevant."
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Because there ain't no soul to reuse.
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@Froclown said
"Because there ain't no soul to reuse."
Thanks for the pointless contribution, Fro.
Dan
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@froclown said
"
Because there ain't no soul to reuse.
"I could just scream out "BECAUSE IS DEAD" like some Zealot, but you are correct.
There is no soul to reuse.
Just as there is no gravity...
But, SOME-THING keeps our feet on the ground!
(I use glue) -
@ar said
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@Froclown said
"Because there ain't no soul to reuse."Thanks for the pointless contribution, Fro."
Good debaters can flip a coin and then argue either side of an issue well. Should Thelemites be any different?
I assert that it's just as important to stand firmly in Assiah - and see the Wonder of the Universe from the point of view of "soul as epiphenomenon of the brain" - as it is to stand in the other worlds and view spirit/soul as the primary "stuff."
Isn't it a key goal of initiation to develop this kind of flexibility?
Steve
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93
Stephen wrote:
"Good debaters can flip a coin and then argue either side of an issue well. Should Thelemites be any different? Smile"
That is sophistry. It is good for lawyers. But there is no room for debate after discovering basic principles of existence. A thing either is, or it isn't. There is either a Sun, or there isn't. You may by argument convince others to your point of view, may potentially fool them, but in the end this doesn't change the fact that the Sun is pelting you with its radiation, lead notwithstanding. Yes? No? Of course yes.
and then he wrote:
"I assert that it's just as important to stand firmly in Assiah - and see the Wonder of the Universe from the point of view of "soul as epiphenomenon of the brain" - as it is to stand in the other worlds and view spirit/soul as the primary "stuff." "
Right, but you see this isn't an intellectual debate between two people who are not certain on an issue. One knows and another doesn't. The one who doesn't couldn't possibly believe that the former actually does. This doesn't change the facts of the former's knowing.
and further:
"Isn't it a key goal of initiation to develop this kind of flexibility? "
I can see where you're going with this but I think the answer is no. Initiation is supposed to awaken you to the reality of things, not simply their intellectual possibilities.
And so I would ask you: Is it possible for one who doesn't know to know what one who knows knows simply by the former convincing them of it? Yes? No? Of course no.
93, 93/93
P.S. I make no comment on the original topic.
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@Draco Magnus said
"93
Stephen wrote:
"Good debaters can flip a coin and then argue either side of an issue well. Should Thelemites be any different? Smile"
That is sophistry. It is good for lawyers. But there is no room for debate after discovering basic principles of existence. A thing either is, or it isn't."
It was only a short time ago that our ancestors were certain -- CERTAIN -- that the earth was flat. This was, at the time, without doubt, a basic principle of existence. The earth was flat, period. If you said the earth wasn't flat, you were probably killed. Fortunately, people kept saying it, disregarding the basic principle of existence of a flat earth â back then, there was apparently room for debate.
I'll be glad to discuss with you the lack of existence of a soul when I see you.
