Joining the A.'.A.'.
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well, as I was trynig to explain in another thread, I am working my way into the SL Gorean community, as a scribe, which will get be access to all the elements of Gor culture and Phliosophy as its is practices in real time and in simulation.
Once I get is as a Scribe I would like to develop a white caste structrue on SL. The white caste are the priests which mediate between the Sardar (a sort of gorean secret chiefs) and the people. The white caste help set up all the rituals and customs of Gor and promote the virtues and caste codes, etc. The priests who administer the formula of the law as well as the prophets that adjust the formula to the Will of the Sardar and the changing times.
I was hoping since their is little to no white caste on Gor, that I could structure this Caste of initiates on the A.'.A.'. models, where the lowest members of the white caste are brought in as probationers, by a neophyte in each city, and the A.'.A.'. skeleton used to hang Gorean symbols and ideals upon, thus spreading Thelema to a rather large community.
The white caste that transcends the particular city, walls, laws, customs, etc, and the city itself run as the OTO, a social order based on the caste system of grades, where the high castes are the minority, and the white caste very few and their identity not know to the city the represent. Only known in person to their the student of their choice.
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Ah...! That's what I was missing!
Sometimes you have to read these threads from the very beginning and not skim them, it seems.
Listen, bro. From the heart...
You're only going to find more of what you've already found. People in "Second Life" aren't going to take you seriously because it's "Second Life" and not Real Life. You're going to be rather frustrated with your "Initiates" who are expecting something "cooler" and more immediately entertaining that the very real, very difficult path you expect them to follow according to your instruction (your claims to be able to deliver that instruction notwithstanding). They are going to laugh when they first figure out you're taking yourself so seriously, and then they are going to start pulling your chain for it. People in Second Life don't expect Real Life effort. They are avoiding it every time they sign on.
It's entertainment.
People in Real Life - real-live Thelemites - aren't going to take you seriously because you're talking about a fantasy environment. In fact, they're probably going to be a bit pissed at you for making them look stupid by dragging something very precious, personal, and powerful to them through the mud of the false, "poser reality" that these fantasy online environments capitalize on.
The fact is that the more involved a person is in a fantasy online environment - the more disconnected from their own Real Life they usually tend to be. It's a form of escape from the "mundane" everyday life that they have not mastered and do not wish to participate in.
Everything you want to teach in this environment.... The subject matter is actually about NOT escaping into fantasy. It's about FACING harsh realities and ENGAGING Real Life in a way that makes it no longer mundane. It's about Conquering and making it fun again...! It's about how you interact with Real people in Real Life with your Real body and its Real energies.
It's about getting out from behind a computer screen and LIVING...!
But at the end of the day it comes down to one thing...
Why should you have the right to make people come to YOU for advancement in this *Second Life *A.'.A.'., when YOU won't submit to the same IN REAL LIFE....?
This is where *you *avoid real life challenges and seek to have these desires fulfilled in Second Life, where it's easier for you because you made the rules...! And if you're doing it, why do you think you'll have "Initiates" who are any more dedicated to the Work?
They'll probaby be just as dedicated to your Second Life A.'.A.'. as you are to the Real Life A.'.A.'.
All that said.... I can't justify spending any more time on this thread...
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what exactly is the problem with virtual reality. So called Real reality is merely a construct of the mind. a model of sensory inputs. see Robert Anton Wilson. second life is merely a model of information from the input of pixel data to the eyes. A human mind is on both sides of the equation. the VR environment is no different that the astral plane, only the with coMputer networks we can easliY distinguish real events from imaginations and results are more standardized.
In the not too distant future direct neural implants to the wireless network will have bring cyberspace and the "real world" into direct contact each over laping the other, cyber space is not an escape from reality it is the forging of a whole new level to reality.
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Froclown,
I think you might like Snow Crash.
Love and L.V.X.,
chrys333 -
@Froclown said
"the VR environment is no different that the astral plane, only the with coMputer networks we can easliY distinguish real events from imaginations and results are more standardized."
With the above statements you've shown (more than once in those few words) that you haven't a clue about the astral plane.
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@Froclown said
"what exactly is the problem with virtual reality. So called Real reality is merely a construct of the mind. a model of sensory inputs. see Robert Anton Wilson. second life is merely a model of information from the input of pixel data to the eyes. A human mind is on both sides of the equation. the VR environment is no different that the astral plane, only the with coMputer networks we can easliY distinguish real events from imaginations and results are more standardized.
In the not too distant future direct neural implants to the wireless network will have bring cyberspace and the "real world" into direct contact each over laping the other, cyber space is not an escape from reality it is the forging of a whole new level to reality."
How much time have you spent attempting to improve "Gorian" society versus cleaning up your house, or yard, or neighborhood, or city?
How much time structuring a Gorian caste system versus participating in the real world politics?
How much time thinking about the role of women in Gorian society versus finding a girlfriend and being overwhelmed in that dance of love and will?
How much time adjusting the color, height, physic, and hair of your avatar versus perfecting the real temple of Life that your body is?
In Virtual Reality, your time, intellect, and passions get dispersed and used up in an environment where there are no real consequences, good or bad. It's easy not to learn one's lessons. It's easy not to evolve. It's easy to ignore the Reality where the laws of action and reaction instruct us how best to live.
Man..., VR may play a very important role in our future. I can imagine humanity evolving into a highly organized and interactive community that functions more efficiently together by such means. Maybe one day.... But right now, on a very large scale, it's where people go to live out fantasies they can't create in Real Life. They change their Avatars and their profile instead of working on their very real health and success.
but ...Who am I, man? Who am I to tell you what your Will is. I'm sure Life has some people devoted to this aspect of our evolution. Maybe you're one of those people. But, honestly, right now you don't have that quality about you that suggests you're doing your True Will. Investigating it, sure - maybe! And for this reason, I'm just a little bit hesitant to press my own ideas about the value of VR too strongly onto you.
But right now you're having a lot of trouble communicating your ideas with Real Live fellow students who wonder what the point is to your ramblings and excitement. Honestly, at times it kind of seems like you're skirting the line of being someone who has lost the ability to communicate meaningfully with others who are not "in to" Second Life. The question remains, "What Real Life value is this to you?" and "Is your own Real Life sufficiently healthy and balanced in practical ways?" Because on the larger scale in the general population, the risk of getting lost in the pure escapism of VR is prevailing, and the best judge of what is of value is its effect (good or bad) on the Real Lives of people.
Of course, who says that's important? Maybe it's your will to burn up in the pleasure of an experience like a falling star..., and damn the rest...!
But you keep coming back to the idea of "teaching" and "advancement" through the grade system. As such, you have to demonstrate mastery of this REAL life and the REAL forces within yourself. This requires healthy bodies and balanced minds. It requires someone be very in touch with physical reality and its rules as the "touchstone" of their experience.
This understanding is part of the very* first *step on the Path - as I see it anyway...
But what do I know? You're asking for advice and struggling with a concept, so I'm responding to that. Some could fault me for spending too much time with you. They could tell me to let failure, experience, and your own Higher Self teach you. Who am I to try to keep your from these experiences of trial and error, success and failure? They are your birthright...! Indeed, if you succeed at what you aim to do, then what other proof do you need, and what better way to prove me wrong?
We're coming to the end of our conversation. And you'll have to make up your own mind about it. You'll have to satisfy yourSelf in the end, so... while I think I've said some things of value,
....you're absolutely going to have to stop listening to me...
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
Firstly, I must humbly bow before the might of your Kung-Fu, Frater AVV. You move swiftly through the dance with the ease of one who flows with the current, and I applaud you! I have watched your effortless and graceful motions with an eye of admiration.
You've said more on this topic than I care to elucidate upon any further, so I will leave the conversation in your capable hands.
Keep dancing, brother!
Love is the law, love under will.
Yours in LVX,
-M -
@Maleficia said
"
Firstly, I must humbly bow before the might of your Kung-Fu, Frater AVV. You move swiftly through the dance with the ease of one who flows with the current, and I applaud you! I have watched your effortless and graceful motions with an eye of admiration
Keep dancing, brother!
-M"Well, thanks... lol... I had fun creating that image. I hope I didn't lose my point in my attempt to illustrate it though...
The point was actually to demonstrate the power that we can give to other people when we externalize our inner conflicts. No one has any power to hinder, encourage, or cause self-doubt unless we give it to them! There is no "Kung Fu" except to know this battle is really internal.
A "No!" has no power unless the hearer has a doubt about their internal "Yes!"
A "Yes!" has no power if the hearer has an internal "No!"
And there is no vulnerability to "attack" unless a part of the hearer agrees with the attack - unless they "let it in." Otherwise, they are impervious.
The whole silly display is to refocus the hearer's attention away from the *external *debate and onto the internal debate - to prove that I'm not really the one the hearer is fighting because I don't really have any power.
The battle is within, and it is the Self which must be satisfied. When this is true, the "Kung Fu" has no power whatsoever....
So, what course of action would satisfy the Self to the extent that there is no longer any hesitation to act nor abilty to hinder acting...?
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Ok so many points to address here.
First of all I know what the astral plane is, it is the minds creation of a spacial platform in which to represent pre-rational information in the format of sensory images which represent innate archetypes and learned combinations of archetypes, or as Plato would call them the Forms. What we think of as the real physical world out there, its three dimensions and its physical laws, is actually a base level of the astral plane, the pre-conscious and thus pre-rational sensory data in translated into semantic and syntactic elements of the conscious rational mind, the brain then projects these elements into a virtual space where they interact, that we call the world. That is we construct a model we call reality, based on the bits of data received by the sense organs. (yes even talk of sense organs and such relies an defining the model in terms of the elements in the model, that is the limit of reason. What exist pre-consciously, the source of the information without words, symbols, images, as well as the nature of the Self which receives the information is unknown and unknowable, Nuit and Hadit are not Manifest to awareness, To transcend this limit of reason is to cross the abyss, which I can not describe as "all words are skew-wise")
in any effect, cyber-space is the same, it is data in the computer which is just pulses of electricity, not unlike a Morse code telegraph, only it is projected into a set of 2D images which the brain projects in its inner eye, the astral plane or second sight, as a 3D virtual space. The fact that the images are depictions to what other humans have constructed in their minds, from archetypes, means it is an expression of collective human minds, manifest inter-subjectively. If I build the Enochian temples per the instruction of Benjamin Rowe, in my minds eye or I do it on second life, it is in essence the same thing, save the SL creates a feed back not just with in my own mind and relation to the tablets, but also creates an environment where other minds can share in the experience and feed back into eachother and the temple, Ie it takes a purely solitary ritual and in theory increases its effectiveness through group activity, and opens the ritual to the extrovert.
Further, what is the point of doing that list of things you think is so important, many of the greatest thinkers, inventers, and progressive figures in history never married, were not concerned with mundane things like that. Di Vinci seldom slept and spent all his time working an his paintings and contraptions, Edison almost never left his lab, Einstein was always so deep in though his sister had to pick out his clothes, Marx nearly never left his house. A great many others.
and my last point the way you speak of Second Life and cyberspace, I bet is exactly the way people at the transition from Isis to Osiris spoke of the ctiy, People in the cities just want to escape the reality of nature, they hide behind giant walls and play games, with their silly numbers and letters, and their silly metal costumes the prance around in. They don't do real work. Not like us out here who have toil in the REAL WORLD,
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@Froclown said
"First of all I know what the astral plane is, it is the minds creation of a spacial platform in which to represent pre-rational information in the format of sensory images which represent innate archetypes and learned combinations of archetypes, or as Plato would call them the Forms."
No, that's not correct. - What you're describing probably does constitute one little bubble in one person's sub-pool of the astral plane, but even then it's a fairly narrow and autistic description.
The rest of what you wrote on this isn't bad, though. (Narrow, short-sighted, etc., but contains some good stuff.)
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
Yeah, I understood the point you were attempting to get across perfectly, Frater AVV. I was merely commending you on doing it so bloody well!
Love is the law, love under will.
Yours in LVX,
-M -
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
"Further, what is the point of doing that list of things you think is so important, many of the greatest thinkers, inventers, and progressive figures in history never married, were not concerned with mundane things like that."
The point Frater AVV was attempting to get across to you, Frowclown, to put it succinctly, is to master all aspects of your REAL life instead of ignoring it in favour of escapism.
Some of the greatest thinkers actually engaged the real world instead of hiding from it, which is directly apparent from the amount of influence they actually had upon it.
"and my last point the way you speak of Second Life and cyberspace, I bet is exactly the way people at the transition from Isis to Osiris spoke of the ctiy, People in the cities just want to escape the reality of nature, they hide behind giant walls and play games, with their silly numbers and letters, and their silly metal costumes the prance around in. They don't do real work. Not like us out here who have toil in the REAL WORLD"
I fail to see the parallel between organizing society into cities and the escapism of virtual reality. Also, your depiction of events is arguably quite historically inaccurate. Some evidence suggests that the first "cities" came into being when Neolithic hunter-gatherers opted to settle near agriculturally rich centres over their original nomadic lifestyles, the former having created denser population areas that were conducive to easier ways of life.
Love is the law, love under will.
Yours in LVX,
-M -
explain why it is escapism to organize a virtual community that is based an a set of laws, customs, legal system, punishments for crimes, etc
But it is not escapism to physically built wooden houses on a physical plot of land, charter a legal system, set laws, develop customs, etc as was the plan for the OTO.
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"Further, what is the point of doing that list of things you think is so important, many of the greatest thinkers, inventers, and progressive figures in history never married, were not concerned with mundane things like that. Di Vinci seldom slept and spent all his time working an his paintings and contraptions, Edison almost never left his lab, Einstein was always so deep in though his sister had to pick out his clothes, Marx nearly never left his house. A great many others.
"But would you say, given their example, that they had completely mastered themselves? You seek to instruct others with a title that implies mastery of yourself. The question is not whether or not they did. The question is whether or not you can, for none of them openly aspired to teach with the authority of a Magister Templi of the A.'.A.'. as you do.
Don't you understand yet? You're aspiring not only to equal but to surpass the examples you gave...! In fact, you're trying to get us to say it's okay to claim that you already have...!
And... Also. This is where I get off. I can't say it any clearer, and it sounds like it's about to digress from what I feel is the main point again anyway.
Satisfy your SELF! Satisfy yourSelf! Satisfy your Self! It's not your job to please anyone else, and you can't anyway, so stop trying.
Find what course of action will satisfy yourSelf!
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
Well for one thing, the answer appears directly in your question: VIRTUAL community, versus a PHYSICAL community.
Burying oneself in an online world surrounded by pixels that are meant to represent people is escapism, or in other words, choosing to ignore the real world in favour of a fabricated one. Of course, I'm using the word 'escapism' insofar as what you're describing is concerned.
"Wooden houses on a physical plot of land" is exactly the opposite. It wasn't the denial of physical reality that the "original plan" for the OTO was proposing, but an ACTUAL and PHYSICAL community of Thelemites based in physical reality.
The bottom line is that these laws, customs, legal systems, et cetera are only truly "enforceable" -- or applicable -- in the real world, and would have absolutely no impact or bearing of any significant consequence in a virtual reality.
You're talking about, for lack of better terms, creating a simulation rooted entirely in cyberspace, to which Frater AVV has demonstrated that no one beyond yourself would take seriously.
You're talking about, for lack of better terms, a game. Hell, I could go ahead and set up something I will call the A.'.A.'. in an online chat room, set up an A.'.A.'. squadron in an online campaign of Battlestar Galactica: Beyond the Red Line (awesome game, by the way) to shoot down Black Brother Cylons. Both are as unreal as what you are proposing.
But hey, who am I to tell you what to do? I think it's a silly notion, but the notion isn't mine, so why should you even care what I -- or anyone else on this forum -- have to say about it? Go out and do it already! Who knows, maybe you'll create a heard of virtual Adepts with really interesting avatars who will one day save us from the inevitability of the Matrix.
It's your call. After all, it's your Will, even if a whole lot of us do not agree with it.
But as you said, you are not seeking our permission, nor our approval. So do what thou wilt.
You continuously refuse to hear what we have to say on the matter, and yet you continuously return to debate your point with us.
If you're really set on doing this thing, do it!
Love is the law, love under will.
Yours in LVX,
-M -
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
@Frater_AVV said
"
"Further, what is the point of doing that list of things you think is so important, many of the greatest thinkers, inventers, and progressive figures in history never married, were not concerned with mundane things like that. Di Vinci seldom slept and spent all his time working an his paintings and contraptions, Edison almost never left his lab, Einstein was always so deep in though his sister had to pick out his clothes, Marx nearly never left his house. A great many others.
"But would you say, given their example, that they had completely mastered themselves? You seek to instruct others with a title that implies mastery of yourself. The question is not whether or not they did. The question is whether or not you can, for none of them openly aspired to teach with the authority of a Magister Templi of the A.'.A.'. as you do.
Don't you understand yet? You're aspiring not only to equal but to surpass the examples you gave...! In fact, you're trying to get us to say it's okay to claim that you already have...!
*"I agree with this assessment in its entirety.
Have you mastered yourself and become a Magister Templi, Frowclown, or merely regurgitating the theory behind the grade you claim to have attained to?
Love is the law, love under will.
Yours in LVX,
-M -
when I say I crossed the abyss, perhaps this description of alchemy by Julius Evola can best explain what I consider to be that experience, Perhaps I am wrong.
Be that as it may, the alchemical process has the skeleton of the quest stories. The would-be initiate must go on a night-journey, perform a great deed, and then return to transform his place of origin. The initiate, in fact, must literally die, or at least temporarily dissociate his consciousness from his physical body. He must hold his awareness together against the temptation to dissolve into the All, which is the trap of mysticism. He must withstand the universal elemental forces that lie below the threshold of conscious. These are the archons, the souls of the metals and their associated astrological planets, which may appear as demons or as gods.
The spirit of the initiate must be “fixed,” its individuality frozen out of the infinite possibilities of the disincarnate state. This is done by union with the poison that initiated the dissolution. The spirit then returns back to the body, which it transforms into an indestructible “body of light” (though this will not necessarily be apparent to objective observers), in which the primordial elements are balanced.
I certainly was dissociated from my body and held between total dissolution and an infinite number of possible world I might end up incarnate within, and the demon of my inhibitions, fears, and such attacking me at every turn.
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@Froclown said
"when I say I crossed the abyss, perhaps this description of alchemy by Julius Evola can best explain what I consider to be that experience, Perhaps I am wrong.
Be that as it may, the alchemical process has the skeleton of the quest stories. The would-be initiate must go on a night-journey, perform a great deed, and then return to transform his place of origin. The initiate, in fact, must literally die, or at least temporarily dissociate his consciousness from his physical body. He must hold his awareness together against the temptation to dissolve into the All, which is the trap of mysticism. He must withstand the universal elemental forces that lie below the threshold of conscious. These are the archons, the souls of the metals and their associated astrological planets, which may appear as demons or as gods.
The spirit of the initiate must be “fixed,” its individuality frozen out of the infinite possibilities of the disincarnate state. This is done by union with the poison that initiated the dissolution. The spirit then returns back to the body, which it transforms into an indestructible “body of light” (though this will not necessarily be apparent to objective observers), in which the primordial elements are balanced.
I certainly was dissociated from my body and held between total dissolution and an infinite number of possible world I might end up incarnate within, and the demon of my inhibitions, fears, and such attacking me at every turn."
Join the club, baby...
And when I regain the simple discipline of being able to consistently meditate everyday and write in my silly little notebook again, I may just apply for 0=0 ...
after I get the balls to tell my girlfriend...
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@Froclown said
"when I say I crossed the abyss, perhaps this description of alchemy by Julius Evola can best explain what I consider to be that experience, Perhaps I am wrong."
What you described is representative of the attainment of Tiphereth, not Binah. It is the archetype of the Hero (the Sun) expressed especially through the last stages of the Path of Nun.
It's hard from the words alone to assess the level of this Tiphereth attainment. It could, of course, by that attainment of Tiphereth in Briah which constitutes the 5=6 of A.'.A.'.. More commonly, this kind of meticulous attention to the alchemical phases is representative of the attainment of Tiphereth in Yetzirah which is the level of the old Golden Dawn's 5=6 (or T.'.O.'.T.'. 5°) - roughly equal to A.'.A.'. late 1=10 or bridging to 2=9 through the Path of Tav.
It's a very good description of that. (The reference to the alchemical metals is especially a good mark of the old G.D. 5=6, Netzach in Assiah bridging into Tiphereth in Yetzirah.)
"I certainly was dissociated from my body and held between total dissolution and an infinite number of possible world I might end up incarnate within, and the demon of my inhibitions, fears, and such attacking me at every turn."
Chemically induced, I presume?