Where is Crowley???
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This question has stemmed from another thread: Where is Crowley???
A sub-question would be, where does one in the thelemic/sephirothic system achieve the buddhist “getting out of the cycle of incarnations”??? After crossing the Abyss, in Ipsissimus, "after" (?!?!?!) Ipsissimus???
A sub-sub-question would be: Theorising that the HGA -is- one's self (Crowley said in Mw/outT that this assumption is "a dangerous heresy", but elsewhere in this forum Jim said this is true "up to Adeptus Minor Within", or something along these lines, if memory serves me correctly), could Crowley's Ipsissimus name be simply Aiwass, meaning that "now" his current job is being "a minister of Hoor-Paar-Kraat"???
Jim said:
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If Crowley really was a magus or an Ipssissimus, where is he now, in whom deos he incarnate, prove that he lives in the astral plane beyond the abyss? yau can not, because it is not so!Not my place to prove it to you, and I don't think it's on the astral plane. I have a pretty clear idea, but technically it remains a theory.
Could you share the "pretty clear idea"???
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@YHVH said
"This question has stemmed from another thread: Where is Crowley???"
This was an extension from a previous thread. Thanks for starting a new thread on it.
As indicated before, you are getting only my opinion, and I can't prove it.
Crowley, as that particular variety of Magus who escorts in a new Aeon and utters a distinctive Word, accepted that office traditionally known in the West as "the Solar Logos," replacing the former Solar Logos who was set free of his duty by this successorship.
It is my opinion (one I can't at all say is proven, but which is consistent with all facts known by me) that upon the death of his last physical body his Yechidah was immediately incarnated in the physical body of our Sun, 93 million miles away; and from there, radiates the Word of this Aeon (in its actual, not spelled, form) with every ray of sunshine poured forth.
"A sub-question would be, where does one in the thelemic/sephirothic system achieve the buddhist “getting out of the cycle of incarnations”??? After crossing the Abyss, in Ipsissimus, "after" (?!?!?!) Ipsissimus???"
It doesn't attach to a grade per se, and there is nothing distinctively "Thelemic" about the answer.
The first thing to getis that nobody is trapped here. That's the real lie. Everyone incarnated here has done so by choice, but rarely a choice that the personality can recall.
Traditionally, the 7=4 Adeptus Exemptus, having passed the Path of Kaph symbolising the "wheel of rebirth," is free to "escape the wheel" - but that idea of escape is an illusion, since there is no trap.
The problem is complicated because so many at 7=4 find themselves accepting a Boddhisatva vow - to reincarnate continually until this field of experience is resolved into freedom for all sentient beings.
Therefore, in some ways, the 8=3 is fully free and more consciously at choice in the matter - but may have elected to pursue a dharma that doesn't result in the end of incarnation. (As at the end of the Buddhist "eight high trances," the choice is at hand whether to resolve "out the top" so to speak, or to return at the conclusion into one's prior state of incarnation.)
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@Jim Eshelman said
"It is my opinion (one I can't at all say is proven, but which is consistent with all facts known by me) that upon the death of his last physical body his Yechidah was immediately incarnated in the physical body of our Sun, 93 million miles away; and from there, radiates the Word of this Aeon (in its actual, not spelled, form) with every ray of sunshine poured forth. "
Remaining purely in my metaphorical, mythopoetic mode...
I checked the sunspot records for the time period around Crowley's death. The Sun has an approximately 11-year activity cycle (which is really a 22-year cycle because the magnetic field "flips over" every 11 years), and 1947-1948 was just about at the "maximum" of the cycle. Strangely, though, for about a 6-month time between the autumn of '47 and the spring of '48, there was a noticeable dip in the activity. The Sun "calmed down" for a time - not all the way down to its "minimum" activity level, but it was slightly unusual. (It happened before in the autumn of 1906, but only lasted a month or two...) Preparing for the influx of the Solar Logos???
I'll have to check, by the way, if the 22-year magnetic cycle was known about when AC instituted his 22-year-cycle Thelemic calendar system.
Steve
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""I checked the sunspot records for the time period around Crowley's death. The Sun has an approximately 11-year activity cycle (which is really a 22-year cycle because the magnetic field "flips over" every 11 years), and 1947-1948 was just about at the "maximum" of the cycle. Strangely, though, for about a 6-month time between the autumn of '47 and the spring of '48, there was a noticeable dip in the activity. The Sun "calmed down" for a time - not all the way down to its "minimum" activity level, but it was slightly unusual. (It happened before in the autumn of 1906, but only lasted a month or two...) Preparing for the influx of the Solar Logos??? ""
Is it SO physical, the Aeon change??? (Or more?)
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@YHVH said
"Is it SO physical, the Aeon change??? (Or more?)"
At the risk of Froclown mistakenly thinking I'm agreeing with him
...If it isn't physical, how real is it?
Obviously some things are real that aren't physical - in fact, I often measure "real" as intensifying the farther up the hierarchy of worlds one goes - but the fulfillment of the Great Work occurs only when all planes simultaneously ratify the result.
PS - Steve, that's a pretty striking "coincidence."
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@YHVH said
"Is it SO physical, the Aeon change??? (Or more?)"At the risk of Froclown mistakenly thinking I'm agreeing with him
...If it isn't physical, how real is it?
Obviously some things are real that aren't physical - in fact, I often measure "real" as intensifying the farther up the hierarchy of worlds one goes - but the fulfillment of the Great Work occurs only when all planes simultaneously ratify the result.
PS - Steve, that's a pretty striking "coincidence."
"Might I suggest that an Aeon shift is entirely a shift of a psychological point of view? In fact, this is entirely what Crowley says - he never mentions any physical changes to the human body or human location on Earth. Its entirely about our point-of-view.
Im not sure why something not being 'physical' means its not real - doesnt a thought hold as much reality to the brain as a material "solid" object?
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@aum418 said
"Might I suggest that an Aeon shift is entirely a shift of a psychological point of view? In fact, this is entirely what Crowley says - he never mentions any physical changes to the human body or human location on Earth. Its entirely about our point-of-view."
I disagree with that - though I think it is mostly correct.
(I also note that we now have multiple sub-conversations going on in this thread, so we're reaching the place where the whole thread is about to decay because of O.T. drift.)
The only thing that makes sense to me about the Aeons as a species-wide shift is that the human species, at its baseline, has the capacity to open new thresholds of consciousness. The ability to sustain different thresholds of consciousness is a physiological shift. Much of the Great Work is, collectively, evolving and hybridizing the human species to increase the capacity of our bodies to sustain new forms of consciousness.
To explain my p.o.v. on the Aeons - the only thing that makes sense to me as an actual difference is to regard the Isis Aeon as the stage in human evolution when Nephesh (what we presently call subconsciousness) was the typical "mature waking adult mind" of humans - much as in nondomesticated animals today. The Osiris Aeon then represents the time when ego-differentiation emerged and self-conscious Ruach development birthed out of the prior state. This having been stabilized (we've all gotten an A in Ego by now and can move on to other classes), the Aeon of Horus represents that stage of human evolution where more and more spontaneous examples of Cosmic Consciousness (Neshemah consciousness) are emerging, and the species, as a whole, is progressively more open to the awakening of Neshemah consciousness - and we'll have concluded this developmental step when about the same percentage of the species has this as a routine healthy adult consciousness as currently has developed ego-differentiation.
This requires baseline changes in the typical human body getting born. We've been hybridizing for millennia and it keeps working.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"The only thing that makes sense to me about the Aeons as a species-wide shift is that the human species, at its baseline, has the capacity to open new thresholds of consciousness. The ability to sustain different thresholds of consciousness is a physiological shift. Much of the Great Work is, collectively, evolving and hybridizing the human species to increase the capacity of our bodies to sustain new forms of consciousness."
Do you have any evidence for a physiological shift from 1904? From 0 AD? From 2000 BC? I assume this would occur in the brain, and if it did it somehow has to have affected all men for "the Law is for All" and such - how could you account for a universal physiological development especially since humans obviously split off from each other long before teh Aeon of Osiris and certainly before the Aeon of Horus. Otherwise you believe that some people are simply physically incapable of understanding the 'new Aeon' (which I think is denied in Liber AL itself in the line quoted before and every man and every woman is a star, etc.)
"To explain my p.o.v. on the Aeons - the only thing that makes sense to me as an actual difference is to regard the Isis Aeon as the stage in human evolution when Nephesh (what we presently call subconsciousness) was the typical "mature waking adult mind" of humans - much as in nondomesticated animals today. The Osiris Aeon then represents the time when ego-differentiation emerged and self-conscious Ruach development birthed out of the prior state. This having been stabilized (we've all gotten an A in Ego by now and can move on to other classes), the Aeon of Horus represents that stage of human evolution where more and more spontaneous examples of Cosmic Consciousness (Neshemah consciousness) are emerging, and the species, as a whole, is progressively more open to the awakening of Neshemah consciousness - and we'll have concluded this developmental step when about the same percentage of the species has this as a routine healthy adult consciousness as currently has developed ego-differentiation."
I hope you can see taht what you just described is entirely a psychological shift. I think perhaps the development of the frontal lobes in humans might support this argument, but frontal lobes deal with advanced thinking that come to its pinnacle at age 25 - MUCH later than when we first differentiate things from other things. Further you could say that these people simply had too short of a life span to fully develop their frontal lobes in the past.
I cant fathom that people who just started differentiated themselves from each other managed to built the Pyramids, and things like that. How do you explain that? The Aeon of Osiris got shifted into around 600BC-0AD, correct? The Pyramids were built a little bit before this, and we are STILL astounded at its precision and the speed with which we beleive it was built. These 'primitive' unconscious Aeon of Isis fellows built it?
"This requires baseline changes in the typical human body getting born. We've been hybridizing for millennia and it keeps working."
You keep saying this: what is your (historical/anthropological) evidence?
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@aum418 said
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@Jim Eshelman said
"The only thing that makes sense to me about the Aeons as a species-wide shift is that the human species, at its baseline, has the capacity to open new thresholds of consciousness. The ability to sustain different thresholds of consciousness is a physiological shift. Much of the Great Work is, collectively, evolving and hybridizing the human species to increase the capacity of our bodies to sustain new forms of consciousness."Do you have any evidence for a physiological shift from 1904?"
Observation. Some things can just be "seen." If you're looking for something formal, Bucke's book at least shows the general trend (though one can suspect that his data was skewed by availability).
There are also significant developments that are consistent with this happening (better births and better bodies) such as the fact that around 1900 we reached the place where more people in the world (i.e., didn't go to bed hungry at night than did.
"From 0 AD? From 2000 BC?[/qiuote]
Wouldn't expect one then, although we can see the maturiing roots of the Ruach's structuralization and development as recently as about 5th Centuery B.C.E. Greece. The prior step I'm placing many thousands of years in the past."I assume this would occur in the brain, and if it did it somehow has to have affected all men for "the Law is for All" and such"
For the baseline. There are members of the species a little ahead, a little behind. We have thousands of years for all of this to ripen. Simple observation of the world shows that while "the Law is for All," not all are yet in any state to receive it.
"Otherwise you believe that some people are simply physically incapable of understanding the 'new Aeon' (which I think is denied in Liber AL itself in the line quoted before and every man and every woman is a star, etc.) "
Understanding it intellectually? Well, even that, yeah, they definitely are. But truly making the individual personal shift in? The capacity to do this is emerging in the species and will continue to do so over the next many hundreds or thousands of years. However long it takes, it's our main biological-genetic species "task" at this stage of development.
"I hope you can see taht what you just described is entirely a psychological shift."
Yes and no. "No" to the extent that these layers of consciousness can't exist without sufficient neurological development. The physiological shift is that which is necessary to create the physical bodies capable of sustaining the different psychological functions.
Simple example: Reptiles don't have most of the parts of the brain that we do. They are capable only of R-complex functions. They don't even have emotion in any sense we would recognize, let alone any ability to do math. Etc.
"I cant fathom that people who just started differentiated themselves from each other managed to built the Pyramids, and things like that. How do you explain that? The Aeon of Osiris got shifted into around 600BC-0AD, correct?"
No. That's what your not getting. There were some sociological shifts in that, but I really don't give a fig about that. I'm talking about shifts that occurred hundreds of thousands of years back (I'm not competent to specify when exactly - I just know the what).
Yes, of course there were religious-sociological changes in more recent phases, but when you examine a range of cultures around the world those aren't anywhere near consistent. If anything, they're more likely related to astronomical shifts that led to different zodiacal iconography - but all in a very Osirian mode of consciousness.
"The Pyramids were built a little bit before this, and we are STILL astounded at its precision and the speed with which we beleive it was built. These 'primitive' unconscious Aeon of Isis fellows built it?"
I regard that entire time as deeply into the Aeon of Osiris.
"
"This requires baseline changes in the typical human body getting born. We've been hybridizing for millennia and it keeps working."You keep saying this: what is your (historical/anthropological) evidence?"
"I don't understand the question. People with different DNA have been fucking and having kids. That's creating hybrids in every generation.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@aum418 said
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@Jim Eshelman said
"The only thing that makes sense to me about the Aeons as a species-wide shift is that the human species, at its baseline, has the capacity to open new thresholds of consciousness. The ability to sustain different thresholds of consciousness is a physiological shift. Much of the Great Work is, collectively, evolving and hybridizing the human species to increase the capacity of our bodies to sustain new forms of consciousness."Do you have any evidence for a physiological shift from 1904?"
Observation. Some things can just be "seen." If you're looking for something formal, Bucke's book at least shows the general trend (though one can suspect that his data was skewed by availability). "
Im sorry, Jim, but are you serious? Your evidence for a physiological shift which you base your ENTIRE theory on is your "observation" of things that can just be "seen?" That is ludicrous. I cant even begin to say how un-scientific, un-realistic, and un-satisfying this approach is.
"There are also significant developments that are consistent with this happening (better births and better bodies) such as the fact that around 1900 we reached the place where more people in the world (i.e., didn't go to bed hungry at night than did."
So, by physiological shift, you didn't mean a shift in the body at all but external circumstances? If not, this is entirely a psychological shift of which external circumstance was an adjuvant.
"
"From 0 AD? From 2000 BC?[/qiuote]
Wouldn't expect one then, although we can see the maturiing roots of the Ruach's structuralization and development as recently as about 5th Centuery B.C.E. Greece. The prior step I'm placing many thousands of years in the past."Why would you NOT expect one then? It is the turning of the Aeon of Osiris, no? Your theory states that the Aeons change in accordance with physiological changes but now you say there was no shift in this time period. You place 'the roots of the Ruach's strucuturalization' at 5th century BCE... after language, empires, agriculture, etc. has been established. It makes no sense historically or anthropologically.
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"I hope you can see taht what you just described is entirely a psychological shift."Yes and no. "No" to the extent that these layers of consciousness can't exist without sufficient neurological development."
How can you continue to say this with no evidence? This is about hte 8th time Ive asked you for evidence of this view and you seem to ahve none. There is no new neurological development to speak of that would support your theory.
"The physiological shift is that which is necessary to create the physical bodies capable of sustaining the different psychological functions.
"
WHAT physiological shift? In the brain? You just keep saying 'physiological shift' a lot, probably hoping people will start believing you if you say it enough... Where is the shift? In the brain? Is it not in the body but in external circumstance like you imply above? If it is in the body, point me to ONE example of this in history, of someone other than yourself talking about this."Simple example: Reptiles don't have most of the parts of the brain that we do. They are capable only of R-complex functions. They don't even have emotion in any sense we would recognize, let alone any ability to do math. Etc"
No, but Dolphins, primates, and various dogs and cats have brains like ours - dolphins especially, and they have quite a distant ancestor with ourselves. Whats your point, again? This proves nothing. Im aware of what we call 'evolution.'
"
"I cant fathom that people who just started differentiated themselves from each other managed to built the Pyramids, and things like that. How do you explain that? The Aeon of Osiris got shifted into around 600BC-0AD, correct?"No. That's what your not getting. There were some sociological shifts in that, but I really don't give a fig about that. I'm talking about shifts that occurred hundreds of thousands of years back (I'm not competent to specify when exactly - I just know the what). "
You THINK you know the what, based on intellectual ideas and imagination. You seem to have no actual evidence to base this 'physiological change' theory of the aeons on.
"
"The Pyramids were built a little bit before this, and we are STILL astounded at its precision and the speed with which we beleive it was built. These 'primitive' unconscious Aeon of Isis fellows built it?"I regard that entire time as deeply into the Aeon of Osiris."
So now you say the Aeon of Osiris is fmo 3000BC - 1904AD? Thats 5000 years for an Aeon. And you regard it as "deeply into the Aeon of Osiris" so this era of about 3rd millenium BCE would dhave to be taken as not the start but the middle of the Aeon. Therefore we could say that the Aeon might even be 7000 years long - this doesnt seem to fit well into your theory at all.
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You keep saying this: what is your (historical/anthropological) evidence?"I don't understand the question. People with different DNA have been {shagging} and having kids. That's creating hybrids in every generation."
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"What is your evidence for a neurological or physiological change in the human body that has allowed for aeon shifts. That is the question which you never fail to not answer.
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This is all so wrong its beyond belief.
The change from Isis to Osiris was most noted by the shift from hunter-gather tribes to agricultural communities. This change was due to the human ability to use symbolic reasoning and thus to record successes and failures. It this way by trial and error, the records of successful trials were passed dawn. Thus an understanding of plant life cycles was developed. The primitive men did not know science so their brains represented the seasons and weather cycles etc in terms they could understand, human relationships, between the "gods". The mysteries and dramas of Persephone for example that recorded and taught farming technique.
Anyway, it was the change in the relative value of the sun in the context of greater of plants and the resulting science of agriculture that marked the new aeon, not a physiological change in human biology. The Change was contextual due to accumulated knowledge.
The idea of the central paternal sun GOD as represented in the absolute authority of the KING and later as the central authority or the State or of some other central principle, grew with the old aeon. As knowledge and science increased to the point where a centralized absolute authority could no longer be maintained, modernism appeared, with Nietszche's "GOD is dead" and Crowley's solution to this, "Do What thou Wilt".
The weak who we should pity not are those who cling to the dead GOD the central solar authority and in live in grief and Dispaire, Thelema says rejoice for the Sun has not left you, the Gods are not dead, you have be come one of them. Seek your own place in the new celestial order, not as a servant to a king, nation, morality, etc. but as a self illuminated solar GOD yourself.
This is not a change is biology, its a reorganization of data that human beings have collected through out history, and a new perspective an ones place in the world and in society, as well as ones relation to the historical narratives and myths.
The supernatural is no more, there is no room is thelema for superstition or an appeal to and desire for ignorance and mystification. It can never be known, or it is beyond knowing, or its not physical oy actual, its some like wow ooooo thing man. These express a desire to not know a longing to drop your jaw and gap at something greater than yourself. We are to go forth and conquer, not to fall on our knees in awe!
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@Froclown said
"The weak who we should pity"
Really?
Liber AL II:48, "Pity not the fallen! I never knew them. I am not for them. I console not: I hate the consoled & the consoler."
Liber AL III:18, "Mercy let be off; damn them who pity! Kill and torture; spare not; be upon them!"Hmmm...
"This modern philosophical preference for and overvaluing of pity is really something new. Concerning the worthlessness of pity philosophers up to now were in agreement. I name only Plato, Spinoza, La Rochefoucauld, and Kant—four spirits as different from one another as possible, but united in one thing, in the low value they set on pity..." -Nietzsche, Genealogy of Morals
"The supernatural is no more, there is no room is thelema for superstition or an appeal to and desire for ignorance and mystification. It can never be known, or it is beyond knowing, or its not physical oy actual, its some like wow ooooo thing man. These express a desire to not know a longing to drop your jaw and gap at something greater than yourself. We are to go forth and conquer, not to fall on our knees in awe!"
Theres a huge difference between appealing to some supernatural source asnd 'awe' or 'wonder.' Crowley talks often of the Trance of Wonder, etc. Think also of the Child - children have an innate sense of wonder of the world that degenerates through time as we become 'used to things...'
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