Certainty, Not Faith
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Again, all good points. Yes, I agree that most Christians (especially of the Protestant variety) associate a rush of happy feelings as GOD. I know several protestants who went around "Church hunting" to find a pastor that was better at bringing about that feeling, thus it was a sort of entertainment. Whoever did the best show and brought up those feelings was the church they went to. While traditional Catholics and Orthodox do not general have this experience since they "rely" on the Mass as opposed to a preacher. However they keep a dualistic idea of them here, and God "out there."
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@DavidH said
"Nuit tells us that she'll give us certainty, not faith. What is the nature of this certainty and what does it mean? How does it differ from faith? If you can't prove it objectively to another person, isn't it still faith?"
I don't know if there is a word for it in english but in sweden we got a word "barnatro" you can call it Faith of a child. A faith not questiond.
This is not what Nuit gives us and not what she want's us to do. It is the moto of the equinox, the method of sience, the aim of religion.
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@noctivagus said
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@DavidH said
"Nuit tells us that she'll give us certainty, not faith. What is the nature of this certainty and what does it mean? How does it differ from faith? If you can't prove it objectively to another person, isn't it still faith?"I don't know if there is a word for it in english but in sweden we got a word "barnatro" you can call it Faith of a child. A faith not questiond.
This is not what Nuit gives us and not what she want's us to do. It is the moto of the equinox, the method of sience, the aim of religion."
Do you try to understand Thelema based on Equinox mottos or the lines in Liber AL vel Legis itself? Your statement reads as if Nuit wants us to do what the Equinox motto tells us, yet 'Nuit' never mentions that motto in Liber AL vel Legis. She DOES mention 'certainty, not faith,' though.
Can the method of science ever give 'certainty'? It is a prerequisite of a scientific theory that it is falsifiable, that is: it can potentially be wrong if one bit of empirical evidence shows up to contradict it. Therefore, there is no such thing as 'certainty' in science, but there is a whole lot of faith in formulas, laws, etc. which we have formulated. There is also a faith in the uniformity of nature: that if we understand motion on earth, it necessarily applies to the whole universe. Whether this is true or not can never really be proven, yet so far the universe seems to abide by the same rules in all places. My point: science doesn't have 100% certainty and it also has a degree of faith.
IAO131
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Faith is not belief of any kind, it is merely the outwardly expressed desire to believe.
If I have faith that God exists, I do not know that God exists, I dont even believe it, what I do is I tell people that I do believe it because I want it to be true. Its as if I can fake it until it becomes true. That if I just keep telling my preacher that I do believe, eventually I will came to believe it actually.
We find faith defined in the book of Hebrews.
"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." King James"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, and the sign that the things not seen are true" Basic English version
Thus we see faith is expressing a desire that a notion is TRUE, its not a belief that it is actually true, and its even further from certain knowledge than belief.
I have Faith that my black jack hand will come up, yet I believe the odds are against me, and I have no certainty until after the cards are drawn.
Thus certainty is knowledge of what is the case, belief is knowledge of the possibility of something not yet the case, and Faith hope that one possibility come into being.
I believe that I might win the hand, I have faith that I WILL. I am certain only after the cards are drawn.
Whenever Faith comes true, the body rewards itself with chemical rush of good feelings, which Christians attribute to God, and Gamblers attribute it to a lucky streak, or being on a roll.
Nuit offers certainty, in that the Samadhi with Nuit, creates the same rush of Emotions as when our hopes come true, only more intense. Nuit does not string you along with faith, unfulfilled promises, building our hopes up and up but never delivering. This is what the Christians do, rather instead Nuit delivers the payoff, Certainty. and With certainty comes action, always knowing one is right, not wavering over the pits of hell, unsure of ones ever step, might it be Sinful, might God strike me down.
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@Froclown said
"Faith is not belief of any kind, it is merely the outwardly expressed desire to believe.
If I have faith that God exists, I do not know that God exists, I dont even believe it, what I do is I tell people that I do believe it because I want it to be true. Its as if I can fake it until it becomes true. That if I just keep telling my preacher that I do believe, eventually I will came to believe it actually. "
This may be your definition of 'faith' but it has nothing to do with the majority of Christians, especially those I have met who really do believe these things.
"We find faith defined in the book of Hebrews.
"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." King James"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, and the sign that the things not seen are true" Basic English version
Thus we see faith is expressing a desire that a notion is TRUE, its not a belief that it is actually true, and its even further from certain knowledge than belief. "
To the contrary - it quite clearly says that the faith is evidence that the unseen things are true.
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Thus certainty is knowledge of what is the case, belief is knowledge of the possibility of something not yet the case, and Faith hope that one possibility come into being. "Often belief and faith have to do with past events (like, uh, Jesus) and not future ones, although those do exist too (rapture, etc.)
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Whenever Faith comes true, the body rewards itself with chemical rush of good feelings, which Christians attribute to God, and Gamblers attribute it to a lucky streak, or being on a roll.Nuit offers certainty, in that the Samadhi with Nuit, creates the same rush of Emotions as when our hopes come true, only more intense."
Here you are essentially equating your notion of faith with the certainty Nuit gives. Isnt that a blatant contradiction?
" Nuit does not string you along with faith, unfulfilled promises, building our hopes up and up but never delivering. "
Really? 'Peace unutterable' and 'certainty, not faith' seem like promises that aren't fulfilled for the majority of people...
"This is what the Christians do, rather instead Nuit delivers the payoff, Certainty. and With certainty comes action, always knowing one is right, not wavering over the pits of hell, unsure of ones ever step, might it be Sinful, might God strike me down."
Indeed...
but what of 'doubt' and 'skepticism'?
IAO131
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Yes, Christians will insist constantly that they really do believe in God, but this is because they are afraid not to believe, their are not allowed be doubt. If they doubt then they go to hell, so they must always insist that they do believe, and by assuring others they re-assure themselves.
But ultimately the Christian is always having to re-assure himself, looking (constructing and reading in) evidence for God where their is none.
This is what it means to have Faith, to constantly assure yourself that something is true, which you know ain't so, to paraphrase Huck Fin.
With Nuit she doesn't express anything which contradicts what we know. Nuit simply expresses that the individual is actually continuous with the external environment. Something that we have direct evidence for, we live is a social system, eat plants and animals which feed off of our waste, we exchange gases with plants, etc. The line between the individual self and the continuous flow and recycling of the cosmos is not definite, the more we look for it the more it blurs.
When we invoke Nuit, we in a sense banish Hadit, we blur the distinction of self-other which we know is only a mental construct, and in doing so we experience the continuity directly, we are certain of it. We do not need to have faith, to constantly try to convince ourself that this is true, we already know it via the direct union with NUIT.
As for Jesus, what Christians have faith in, is that Jesus in God and can grant eternal life, not that he was a man who lived 2000 years ago. Thus they can not known this is true until after they die and see Jesus for themselves in heaven. They may believe this, but not on real evidence, but because the fear to not believe it and thus have faith, which is a very tenuous hold on that belief, reliant on forcing oneself to believe what one knows is not true.
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Nuit is a belief.
In L.V.X.,
chrys333 -
@Chris Hanlon said
"Nuit is a belief.
In L.V.X.,
chrys333"The self is a belief. Substance, form, causality, separability, lines, planes, distances, measurements are all beliefs.
What now?
Do things migrate from being merely belief to reality once we have apparently directly apprehended them? Does giving a label to something make it a belief?
IAO131
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Yes. Giving a label means having a belief. Never thought of it that way, but I think so, now. In the Bible, God is always giving things names and new names. Belief is creative. Giving a label is a creative act.
In L.V.X.,
chrys333 -
@Chris Hanlon said
"Yes. Giving a label means having a belief. Never thought of it that way, but I think so, now. In the Bible, God is always giving things names and new names. Belief is creative. Giving a label is a creative act.
In L.V.X.,
chrys333"Or is it a divisive one?
IAO131