How Thelemites were governed...
-
93
I have been reading Rabelais' 'Gargantua' & ran across a section that I thought everyone might like to read:
Chapter 1.LVII.
How the Thelemites were governed, and of their manner of living.
All their life was spent not in laws, statutes, or rules, but according to their own free will and pleasure. They rose out of their beds when they thought good; they did eat, drink, labour, sleep, when they had a mind to it and were disposed for it. None did awake them, none did offer to constrain them to eat, drink, nor to do any other thing; for so had Gargantua established it. In all their rule and strictest tie of their order there was but this one clause to be observed,
Do What Thou Wilt;
because men that are free, well-born, well-bred, and conversant in honest companies, have naturally an instinct and spur that prompteth them unto virtuous actions, and withdraws them from vice, which is called honour. Those same men, when by base subjection and constraint they are brought under and kept down, turn aside from that noble disposition by which they formerly were inclined to virtue, to shake off and break that bond of servitude wherein they are so tyrannously enslaved; for it is agreeable with the nature of man to long after things forbidden and to desire what is denied us.
By this liberty they entered into a very laudable emulation to do all of them what they saw did please one... - Gargantua
93 93/93
616
-
93,
This is probably the most notable section from Rabelais' Gargantua & Pantagruel, that most Thelemites have read if they ever read Rabelais in teh first place.... but thanks for posting, its always nice to re-read
IAO131
-
Nice to read, but what does it mean to Thelemites?
Does it mean that the reception of The Book of the Law was no more than Crowley's subconscious mind speaking to him?
Or that the story of the reception of The Book of the Law was a fraud?
Do any of the Thelemites find it disturbing that it was written before The Book of the Law was received? -
@Frater Pantha said
"Nice to read, but what does it mean to Thelemites?
Does it mean that the reception of The Book of the Law was no more than Crowley's subconscious mind speaking to him?
Or that the story of the reception of The Book of the Law was a fraud?
Do any of the Thelemites find it disturbing that it was written before The Book of the Law was received?"93
Grant Morrison, following his K&C of HGA experience, formed the same question. When his Angel spoke to him, He used puns & word plays that were coded messages that only Morrison would be able to fully understand because they were based on his own past experiences - almost as if the Language of his HGA consisted of his own life. Morrison postulated that this was because the K&C, being pure in itself, was tainted by the nervous system that received it...our subconscious says "x feeling from K&C reminds me of x experience from my past" & thus attatches that significance to it.
93 93/93
616
-
@Frater Pantha said
"Nice to read, but what does it mean to Thelemites?
Does it mean that the reception of The Book of the Law was no more than Crowley's subconscious mind speaking to him?"Crowley was aware that Rabelais had beaten him to the word "thelema" and had written of an "Abbey of Thelema" where people lived according to "do what thou wilt". That's why Rabelais is included in the list of saints in the Gnostic Mass.
-
@Frater Pantha said
"Nice to read, but what does it mean to Thelemites?
Does it mean that the reception of The Book of the Law was no more than Crowley's subconscious mind speaking to him?
Or that the story of the reception of The Book of the Law was a fraud?
Do any of the Thelemites find it disturbing that it was written before The Book of the Law was received?"Crowley was in tune with the flow and direction of the river TAO. He could feel it's currents and eddies (the illusionary boudary of division between he and the river was temporarily gone). As such, the understanding of the direction of the river flowed down through his ruach and became expressed in words that were currently accessible to his Ruach.
-
@Frater Pantha said
"Nice to read, but what does it mean to Thelemites?
Does it mean that the reception of The Book of the Law was no more than Crowley's subconscious mind speaking to him?
Or that the story of the reception of The Book of the Law was a fraud?
Do any of the Thelemites find it disturbing that it was written before The Book of the Law was received?"disturbing? are u joking? e.g. did Rabelais predict "the warrior Lord of the 40s"? Liber Al is much much more than a mere philosophical diatribe/thesis
-
@gmugmble said
"Crowley was aware that Rabelais had beaten him to the word "thelema" and had written of an "Abbey of Thelema" where people lived according to "do what thou wilt". That's why Rabelais is included in the list of saints in the Gnostic Mass."
It seems pretty clear that he had read it before he received The Book of the Law. It would have been pretty silly to think that Rabelais was so unknown that no one else would come across the concept of Thelema that he expressed. The best choice he had would be to include Rabelais into his system.
This brings me to a pretty touchy subject. Many of Crowley's written works actually were "stolen" from other authors.
His A.'.A.'. system seems to have been taken from the Golden Dawn & Rosicrucian systems.
His O.T.O. system was in large part taken from Masonic systems.
Liber Resh was inspired by the daily prayers of Islam.
His writings on yoga were taken almost word for word from Swami Vivekananda's Raja Yoga.
His Gnostic Mass taken from Russian Orthodox, Roman Catholic, and Gnostic systems.
His Enochian work was based on the work of John Dee.
So what do most of the people on here think that Crowley's original and important gifts to mankind were? What did he do in life that was all "his" and unlike anything that came before it?
I really enjoy reading and studying many of the things that Crowley put together, but what do most of you think was the most special thing that Crowley did in his life? -
@Frater Pantha said
"
@gmugmble said
"Crowley was aware that Rabelais had beaten him to the word "thelema" and had written of an "Abbey of Thelema" where people lived according to "do what thou wilt". That's why Rabelais is included in the list of saints in the Gnostic Mass."It seems pretty clear that he had read it before he received The Book of the Law. It would have been pretty silly to think that Rabelais was so unknown that no one else would come across the concept of Thelema that he expressed. The best choice he had would be to include Rabelais into his system.
This brings me to a pretty touchy subject. Many of Crowley's written works actually were "stolen" from other authors.
His A.'.A.'. system seems to have been taken from the Golden Dawn & Rosicrucian systems.
His O.T.O. system was in large part taken from Masonic systems.
Liber Resh was inspired by the daily prayers of Islam.
His writings on yoga were taken almost word for word from Swami Vivekananda's Raja Yoga.
His Gnostic Mass taken from Russian Orthodox, Roman Catholic, and Gnostic systems.
His Enochian work was based on the work of John Dee.
So what do most of the people on here think that Crowley's original and important gifts to mankind were? What did he do in life that was all "his" and unlike anything that came before it?
I really enjoy reading and studying many of the things that Crowley put together, but what do most of you think was the most special thing that Crowley did in his life?""If I have seen farther than other men, it is because I have stood on the shoulders of giants"
~Sir Isaac Newton -
93,
"what do most of you think was the most special thing that Crowley did in his life?"
1)Crossing the Abyss, and 2)attaining to the K&C of the HGA.
"
what do most of the people on here think that Crowley's original and important gifts to mankind were?"The Book of the Law.
93, 93/93
-
@Draco Magnus said
"93,
"what do most of you think was the most special thing that Crowley did in his life?"
1)Crossing the Abyss, and 2)attaining to the K&C of the HGA.
"
what do most of the people on here think that Crowley's original and important gifts to mankind were?"The Book of the Law.
93, 93/93"
Draco,
I think I see where you are coming from, but even the concept of the HGA pre-dates Crowley.
If The Book of the Law was the most original and important gift to mankind I guess I might ask why? Gerry seems to think it was in large part because in it he predicts a war. There was another World War that happened after Crowley wrote Liber AL , but before the war of the 40's. Crowley wasn't stupid; on some level in his travels don't you think he could sense war was coming due to the tensions at the time? Just like I can sense more war coming now? With maybe Iran? Or China? -
@Frater Pantha said
"
@Draco Magnus said
"93,"what do most of you think was the most special thing that Crowley did in his life?"
1)Crossing the Abyss, and 2)attaining to the K&C of the HGA.
"
what do most of the people on here think that Crowley's original and important gifts to mankind were?"The Book of the Law.
93, 93/93"
Draco,
I think I see where you are coming from, but even the concept of the HGA pre-dates Crowley.
If The Book of the Law was the most original and important gift to mankind I guess I might ask why? Gerry seems to think it was in large part because in it he predicts a war. There was another World War that happened after Crowley wrote Liber AL , but before the war of the 40's. Crowley wasn't stupid; on some level in his travels don't you think he could sense war was coming due to the tensions at the time? Just like I can sense more war coming now? With maybe Iran? Or China?"If you think the coolest and most intriguing thing about Liber AL is that it might have predicted a historical event, I think you may be looking with the wrong emphasis...
IAO131
-
@Frater Pantha said
"
@Draco Magnus said
"93,"what do most of you think was the most special thing that Crowley did in his life?"
1)Crossing the Abyss, and 2)attaining to the K&C of the HGA.
"
what do most of the people on here think that Crowley's original and important gifts to mankind were?"The Book of the Law.
93, 93/93"
Draco,
I think I see where you are coming from, but even the concept of the HGA pre-dates Crowley.
If The Book of the Law was the most original and important gift to mankind I guess I might ask why? Gerry seems to think it was in large part because in it he predicts a war. There was another World War that happened after Crowley wrote Liber AL , but before the war of the 40's. Crowley wasn't stupid; on some level in his travels don't you think he could sense war was coming due to the tensions at the time? ?"you've lost me there
Liber Al 1904 when even the gargantuan conflict of "the Great war" was nowhere in sight. Some kind of European conflict perhaps but not such a *gargantuan war * yes we had the Kaiser/British arms race and various entente cordials but i doubt that the scale of WW1 was envisioned by anyone in 1904 ,......... okay even that was impressive to predict WW1 in 1904 BUT to make a leap to the subsequent warrior lord OF THE 40s!! c'mon now that is impressive. Furthermore crowley cites that all important religious texts contain an element of prophecy as proof of the validity of invovlement of prater human intelligence so my assertion you see was not as crass as some of you are making out.
anyway it's all intuitive and poetic ; it isn't about the empty analysis of "the dogs of reason" it's about reading between the lines and experiencing an inate (Horusian aeon?) resonance within one's subconsciousness to the various passages in Liber Al and the other Libri
back to the sub thread of what important contribution did crowley make
he caused the modern openess towards the ancient mysteries by letting the G.D. secrets out of the bag in his publishing activity. More importantly he synthesised and tried and tested comparitive religious experience making spiritual science respectable ..........no.......... he made spiritual science. Full stop. He wrote intelligently and objectively about drug use,yoga,and mysticism from first hand experience. You argue that yes he was soemwhat of a chameleon with a magpie approach to spiritual science/magick; well there's your answer. Did John Dee write about yoga? Did the catholic priests who gave mass practice objective Bhakti yoga? Did Swami Vivekananda use the Cabballa or gematria? He was a conduit and an eclectic focal point for all of man's mystical heritage up to that point whereas the people who he borrowed from were not; they were specialists they were not flexible and in my opinion controlled felxibility is the quintessence of teh 93 current
-
@Frater Pantha said
"what do most of you think was the most special thing that Crowley did in his life?"
I think Draco hit on the head the first time. Do we really need to mention anything else when one can say Crowley "Executed the Great Work"? That is just about the most special thing there is, although I suspect that if asked, he would have liked to add to that list "be a dad".
-
no it's more than that it's teh electic synthesis of all previous traditions
see my post above your one
-
Crowley brought in the New Aeon, in respect to the Old Aeon.
Which does not mean that the "New Aeon" had not come before and will not come again.
For all we know there were a million other Thelemas , and there will be millions more.
Imagine it at all, if conceivable.
-
@gerry456 said
"no it's more than that it's teh electic synthesis of all previous traditions
see my post above your one"Do you have the same sort of respect for Mathers who also created the same sort of synthesis years before Crowley?
I actually have a great deal of respect for the work that Crowley did during his life. I have however noticed that there is good number of people that seem to worship Crowley like a God. A prophet okay, but even Crowley said that he wanted to have students that used a system of attainment "more or less" like his system. It seems to me that Crowley also used a system more or less like those that came before him.
Mathers created a synthesis of traditions available to him, and Crowley seems to have continued in the foot steps of one of his teachers traditions by doing the same. IMO he created a better more advanced system during the lifetime of Mathers. I think that is really saying something, and Crowley deserves so much of the praise that he gets today because of his hard work. Do you think that if someone came up with a better or more advanced system than Crowley did that they would be accepted by the Thelemic students today? Or, would they be put down because they were different?
Are those that follow Crowley's system flexible enough to accept changes to the system itself, or has it become an inflexible dogma of religion? -
@Frater Pantha said
"
@gerry456 said
"no . Do you think that if someone came up with a better or more advanced system than Crowley did that they would be accepted by the Thelemic students today? Or, would they be put down because they were different?
Are those that follow Crowley's system flexible enough to accept changes to the system itself, or has it become an inflexible dogma of religion?"
"well yes exactyl hence teh distaste for Austin Spare and the Horus-Maat Lodge might i add on* this* site
-
@gerry456 said
"
@Frater Pantha said
"
@gerry456 said
"Do you think that if someone came up with a better or more advanced system than Crowley did that they would be accepted by the Thelemic students today? Or, would they be put down because they were different?
Are those that follow Crowley's system flexible enough to accept changes to the system itself, or has it become an inflexible dogma of religion?"well yes exactyl hence teh distaste for Austin Spare and the Horus-Maat Lodge might i add on* this* site"
"
I know that Spare was a member of the A.'.A.'. but I don't honestly understand what you mean. Are you saying that he made changes to the system and is hated for it? Or that he came up with a better, and more advanced system then Crowley?
I also do not know what Horus-Maat Lodge has done. Is this an O.T.O. Lodge? What have they done, or are they doing, that is so different? Are you part of Horus-Maat? -
well Spare thought he was modifying updating and making more efficient the "smells and bells" traditional A'A' ceremonial magick didn't he? He is seen as a A'A' drop-out. Why /How is this news to you?
if u google Horus Maat Lodge you will find their website/more info