Reincarnation
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Deadlines are hard for me, even when I was in college (art school) there was always more I wanted to do so I would rarely feel satisfied when turning in projects. (I would use the Leonardo da Vinci quote as an excuse, "a work of art is never turly finished, only abandoned") But the fact that the AA has laid out what to do and in what time frame appeals to me, as well as the blending of the most important parts of both eastern and western systems. There is nothing lacking, but in the Taoist thinking, one might say, when you realize nothing is lacking...so with this system, it's the first time I've felt that, where there wasn't a situation of me being like...ahhhhhh yeah that's nice, next please.
Death. Ok, I'm putting this out there as my belief, and if I can find where I've read some of these things I will totally divulge them, but it's hard because this is a combination of what I believe and what I've read which influenced parts of what I believe.
Ok, I believe the physical body is a temporary mode, but the soul is eternal. I believe the soul moves from life to life accumulating, and I believe there are ways to tapping into that knowledge of all your past lives (it's stored in one of our chakras). In fact I have read a ritual by Crowley that is in the AA system where one gains knowledge of their past incarnations. In my Buddhist group we studied Bardo's about a month ago and that gave me reason to re-read the Tibetan Book of the Dead. That is what I believe, it "rings true to me" A Taoist would say that it doesn't matter, just accept it when it gets here, but, according to what I believe, when your last breath leaves your physical body, if you did not practice spirituality in your lifetime (present incarnation) than you will zip past the First Bardo where you're confronted with the Clear White Light that is Everything, and hurl uncontrollablly through the Second Bardo, not being able to stop as you're pulled through the Six Lokas of Heavens and Hells, missing again on Liberation, into the third Bardo where you're all at once confronted with all of your karma as you stand before the"Lord of Death" who holds the Mirror of Karma. At that point you'll feel like you're drowning, and as the psychic vortexes of rebirth approach in the shape of mountain caves **you will desperately cling to the first one that comes along just to make it all stop. **
That said, the Buddhists practice spirituality, and in all fairness, even say that a Catholic saying the Roseary is at least trying to practice spirituality, and even a person clinging to a love of Jesus, will at least have some form of stillness in the Bardo's. The stronger you've developed yourself spiritually, that more control you have in the Bardo's, up to and including Masters of the Temple or Bodhissatvas, who face the Bardo and although they are able to liberate, intentionally chose a new incarnation (notice the word chose) so that they can come back to guide others. For some, Ipissimus, or perhaps a Buddha if you will, Jesus, Mohamad, etc. liberate from the Bardos and samsara (the endless cycle of life and death and rebirth), but they become one with the One, and that is beyond our human understanding. Even a moderately practiced Theurgist (Spiritualist) will have at least some control so that he/she can face each stage of the Second Bardo and not be afraid. I could go on and quote the Tibetan Book of the Dead about what each step entails and what you encounter, and what a grave mentor is, but I won't.
So magick. I've read an AA ritual designed to allow you to revist this material plane from the Astral (Bardos) and even the Supernal Realms. after death. The AA believes in death of the physical body, but that a truly accomplished Magician will care not for he will be prepared and even look forward to the liberation from the physical body, as with his training, he will be able to travel the Bardo's (Astral) with ease. This AA system, Rising on the Planes, and the advanced stuff gives us the ability to leave our physical bodies and visit those other places, and encounter those that dwell there in the outter reaches, but it teaches the perfection of the self in the here and now to have more control while there, to have better access, and to find that Divine Reflection of yourself, which is your Ageless self and knows what has come and what is to come. I've gotten all of the above from The AA libers, Holy Books, Tibetan Book of the Dead, Taoism, and my own opinions on said topics I would be willing to go into more detail if requested.
Black Magic - I think in the Tree of Life Regardie says that in Theurgy any workings that do not have the final goal of gaining knowledge and connection with your Divine Essence are considered black magic. Personally I kind of think that Black Magic is moreso operations that you intentionally do that intentionally harm, hurt, impeed or otherwise change the course of another's life or Will path. Black Magic could also be the use of operations to say, gain material power, wealth, and fleeting things here in Malkuth, in this temporary life...even a guru who can heal the sick, see the future, calm those arround him could be a Black Magician if he/she started doing it to accumulated material wealth or power. In the ultimate operation of the AA, in the crossing of the Abyss, you are to sacrifice your Ruach (Ego) as Regardie says, and Crowley, and Jones, and the others, sacrifice it by giving yourself to your Higher Self that knows your True Will. Take from that what you will, but those who fail to do that are called the Black Brothers (see Mystical and Magical system of the AA), Black Magicians who use their power for vile purposes.
So I hope that clears up at least how I view things, I'll do a discussion if anyone wants.
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The soul in the second bardo is many times caught in a dream state sometimes unaware that it has died, and incapable of taking action to raise its state of consciousness to a threshold level of awareness where it can direct its attention towards spiritual states.
This is one of the reasons it is important to do a regular spiritual practice during life. Doing meditation or prayer every day establishes a pattern of spiritual activity. It then becomes automatic and the habit of seeking after the divine reality continues during the after-death state where it can have powerful results. A daily spiritual practice differs from other more common spiritual practices such as going to church or temple because it is done more often than once or twice a week. Meditation therefore establishes a stronger habit pattern in the individual and is a valuable addition to group oriented spiritual activities such as attending church.
Regular meditation can also be more powerful because it is usually a less passive activity than church since it fully involves the individual in the meditative process rather than making a spectator out of him or her.
What the soul in the second bardo needs to do is "wake up", as in a lucid dream, and begin a meditation or mental exercise that draws it towards a desired stable and more conscious state of awareness where it can have some control and continue to evolve spiritually. The opposite of conscious control is a dream-like state where the individual experiences only the results of his or her previous actions, and mechanically moves from thought to thought based on thinking patterns developed during life.
Waking up within a dream is one of the activities the spiritual traveler practices when he or she leaves the body to travel the inner planes. Beyond this, the traveler is also always practicing and perfecting the art of directing his or her attention towards some desired state. **It is my contention that experience with meditation and actual spiritual travel experience during life can both be of great help in rising above the semi-conscious state characteristic of the second bardo, and moving into a more conscious and desirable state following physical death. **
For those who practiced a devotional tradition in life, some will semi-consciously repeat a religious or a meditative ritual asking gods or intercessors to draw them out of the second bardo world. We see an example of an attempt to create such a ritual in the Catholic rosary, where Mary as intercessor is requested to Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death ...This phrase is from the Hail Mary Prayer. One effect of the repetition of this prayer fifty times in the rosary is that such a prayer for help and intercession may become an automatic process, which will repeat itself in the bardo.
For those fortunate enough to be more conscious in these bardo states, a petition to a god, guru, guide, saint, or intercessor can be made in hopes that the individual will be lifted or guided out of the bardo worlds by one of those entities. But here again, the call must be concentrated and the ability to ignore the surrounding chaos somewhat developed. When such grace is given, it is a form of salvation where the individual is saved from the discomfort and confusion of the "outer darkness" of the bardo by a powerful entity - usually one that individuals formed a bond with in their former life. To use the swimming analogy, here the individual calls out to a lifeguard in hopes of being rescued from the turbulent waters of the bardo state. This is the more passive approach of the devotee.
We should also note that souls in this bardo are thought to be very sensitive to the thoughts and attitudes of those they knew during life. The Tibetans therefore put great effort into doing chanting, reading of sacred texts, and other religious rituals to help the dying soul on its journey in the afterlife. Praying for the peace and happiness of the dying person therefore has great value and provides a benefit to both the living and the dead.
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93,
Reincarnation is a spiritual pipedream, as are your hail marys, etc. If you 'die daily' what exactly would reincarnate after your body has deteriorated? Your cognitive functions depend on your brain functioning as can seen by any simple study of lesions or something like Alzheimers, the effects of which are known to just about everybody.
"I give unimaginable joys on earth: certainty, not faith, while in life, upon death; peace unutterable, rest, ecstasy; nor do I demand aught in sacrifice."
"Now let it be understood: If the body of the King dissolve, he shall remain in pure ecstasy for ever."
IAO131
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@Aum418 said
"Your cognitive functions depend on your brain functioning as can seen by any simple study of lesions or something like Alzheimers, the effects of which are known to just about everybody."
That's just plain silly.
Yes, brain functions are impaired by brain damage just as your ability to drive can be impaired by car damage. That doesn't stop you, though, from getting out of the car and strolling down the street.
Consciousness isn't constrained to its temporary organic housing. Unless you are defining "cognitive functions" like a neurologist, your claim is easily dismissed by anyone with any extensive actual spiritual experience.
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@Aum418 said
"Reincarnation is a spiritual pipedream, as are your hail marys, etc. "
Depends on what you think there is to incarnate. I don't think there is an eternally enduring monad which adopts a sequence of vehicles through which to function. On the other hand, I think there is cosmic awareness which is continually incarnating, as per Brahma playing all the roles.
@Aum418 said
"Your cognitive functions depend on your brain functioning as can seen by any simple study of lesions or something like Alzheimers, the effects of which are known to just about everybody."
What does this indicate, besides the simple fact perhaps of awareness functioning through the brain?
@Aum418 said
""I give unimaginable joys on earth: certainty, not faith, while in life, upon death; peace unutterable, rest, ecstasy; nor do I demand aught in sacrifice."
"Now let it be understood: If the body of the King dissolve, he shall remain in pure ecstasy for ever.""
Different board; same old Aum418: the usual appeals to scriptural authority, as if that's supposed to settle all speculation whatever.
Yours in the besz-mass,
Michael.
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@Fire Giver said
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@Aum418 said
"Your cognitive functions depend on your brain functioning as can seen by any simple study of lesions or something like Alzheimers, the effects of which are known to just about everybody."That's just plain silly. "
According to... you? Whats your evidence to the contrary?
"Yes, brain functions are impaired by brain damage just as your ability to drive can be impaired by car damage."
No, your cognitive functions are impaired by brain damage. Of course your brain is damaged by brain damage - thats a tautology. Why not read up on the 100+ year old literature on this subject before you act like you what you're talking about?
"That doesn't stop you, though, from getting out of the car and strolling down the street."
If your brain was damaged it sure would. You might be paralyzed. Or is being paralyzed a spiritual condition to you?
"Consciousness isn't constrained to its temporary organic housing."
By any remotely scientific understanding it is.
" Unless you are defining "cognitive functions" like a neurologist, your claim is easily dismissed by anyone with any extensive actual spiritual experience."
I have 'actual' spiritual experience and I happen to know a little bit about science which you seem to neglect for Hoor-knows-why. I can't argue with someone that doesn't present any kind of argument other than 'it doesnt depend on your brain' since I can cite about 200 instances how it does. Like I said, Alzheimers is a pretty strong one that you probably know of, although I may be mistaken.
@Michael Staley said
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@Aum418 said
"Reincarnation is a spiritual pipedream, as are your hail marys, etc. "Depends on what you think there is to incarnate. I don't think there is an eternally enduring monad which adopts a sequence of vehicles through which to function. On the other hand, I think there is cosmic awareness which is continually incarnating, as per Brahma playing all the roles."
That is not anyone's notion of reincarnation. Thats just incarnation. Reincarnation implies something there has been incarnated before.
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@Aum418 said
"Your cognitive functions depend on your brain functioning as can seen by any simple study of lesions or something like Alzheimers, the effects of which are known to just about everybody."What does this indicate, besides the simple fact perhaps of awareness functioning through the brain? "
This indicates that when your brain dies, your 'self' dies and therefore if your body dies theres nothing 'left' to reincarnate.
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@Aum418 said
""I give unimaginable joys on earth: certainty, not faith, while in life, upon death; peace unutterable, rest, ecstasy; nor do I demand aught in sacrifice.""Now let it be understood: If the body of the King dissolve, he shall remain in pure ecstasy for ever.""
Different board; same old Aum418: the usual appeals to scriptural authority, as if that's supposed to settle all speculation whatever."
Different board, same old Stalemeister; I was giving examples of where the texts support this view. I know this is offensive to Grant thumpers like yourself and those who don't see Crowley as an authority on the philosophy he helped form btu for others it might be helpful.
IAO131
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@Aum418 said
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"Consciousness isn't constrained to its temporary organic housing."By any remotely scientific understanding it is."
No, consciousness is cosmic. Unless you want to downgrade mystical experience as illusory.
So "scientific understanding" ends all arguments, does it? Irrespective of the fact that "scientific understanding" is transitory? Which "scientific understanding" do you have in mind?
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@Aum418 said
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"Yes, brain functions are impaired by brain damage just as your ability to drive can be impaired by car damage."No, your cognitive functions are impaired by brain damage. Of course your brain is damaged by brain damage - thats a tautology. Why not read up on the 100+ year old literature on this subject before you act like you what you're talking about?"
Are you referring to medical (mostly neurological) literature? That's hardly a sufficiently broad literature. Their model will be wholly physical and biological; in other words, unnecessarily narrow and limiting.
If we take a diictionary definition of "cognition" as "that which is known" (Webster) or "the mental process of knowing, including awareness, perception, reasoning, and judgment" (American Heritage), most of these also exist independent of a specific biology.
Consciousness isn't biological. It inhabits the biological, but isn't simply a side-effect of electrochemical processes as medical science sometimes claims.
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"Consciousness isn't constrained to its temporary organic housing."By any remotely scientific understanding it is."
By most (but not all) definitions of physical science, you're right. But are you entirely excluding spiritual science (which is the proper domain for studying the phenomenology of consciousness?).
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"Unless you are defining "cognitive functions" like a neurologist, your claim is easily dismissed by anyone with any extensive actual spiritual experience."I have 'actual' spiritual experience"
There isn't any evidence of it in any of your posts that I've seen. I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt (your universe, your reality and so forth), but this would require less faith if there were actually some objective hint that your eyelids open past the perimeter of your own ego and intellect.
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I guess I'm fully not understanding why you're posting such a strong argument against the conceopt of reincarnation according to the Tibetan Book of the Dead, or the Bardo system. Especially since this "is" a Thelema message board, and reincarnation "is" a Thelemic belief.
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@h3fall3n777 said
"Especially since this "is" a Thelema message board, and reincarnation "is" a Thelemic belief."
I wouldn't go that far. It's probably true that the majority of Thelemites believe in it, but the majority of Wiccans probably believe in it, too...
There was another thread with the same name here, with a variety of other Thelemic points of view on reincarnation...
Steve
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@Steven Cranmer said
"I wouldn't go that far. It's probably true that the majority of Thelemites believe in it, but the majority of Wiccans probably believe in it, too... "
I'd agree with that, Steve. However, it remains surprising that Aum418 was pursuing such a reductionist line of argument given his interest in Thelema and Eastern Mysticism.
Best wishes,
Michael.
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@Michael Staley said
"However, it remains surprising that Aum418 was pursuing such a reductionist line of argument given his interest in Thelema and Eastern Mysticism."
I suppose I'm with Aum418 (and maybe gurugeorge... and even Erwin Hessle, to an extent) on this, in that I share much of that ultimate reductionism. I continue to hope there's a place in the "big tent" of Thelema for those who are enchanted by the beauty and truth of the Holy Books, and who want to explore aspects of the path of self-discovery outlined by the A.'.A.'., while not really getting into the more... um... paranormal aspects?
Note that I said "ultimate" reductionism above -- it's an important caveat. Many atheistic rationalists hold to a much stronger and starker form of reductionism than I do and thus throw the baby out with the bathwater. We know that it's possible to build multiple layers of complexity on top of the simplest kinds of bottom layers (like, say, a world made up of things like protons and electrons that obey well-understood physical laws). If you build on enough layers, things aren't so nicely predictable any more, and things like consciousness become possible. Build on a few more layers (like modern technology?), and who knows what else becomes possible? See Douglas Hofstadter's classic Godel-Escher-Bach, for much more about this...
Getting back to reincarnation (and similar things like natal astrology): Although I don't hold the literal beliefs that many here do, I do think that these things can be sublimely useful symbols and metaphors. I said more about this in the 2nd post of that other reincarnation thread.
Steve
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@Michael Staley said
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@Steven Cranmer said
"I wouldn't go that far. It's probably true that the majority of Thelemites believe in it, but the majority of Wiccans probably believe in it, too... "I'd agree with that, Steve. However, it remains surprising that Aum418 was pursuing such a reductionist line of argument given his interest in Thelema and Eastern Mysticism.
Best wishes,
Michael."
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. " - Aristotle
IAO131
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@Aum418 said
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. " - Aristotle
IAO131"Thanks for that, Aum418, though I'm not sure the quote from Aristotle is applicable in this instance.
I wonder if in future you might indicate posts where you are adopting a stance purely as a debating exercise. Then I'll know not to waste my time responding to them.
Best wishes always,
Michael.
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That's why I try not to over discuss things. Sophistry is not my cup of tea. I just say - do your yoga.
The Tibetan Book of the Dead is a good read. -
@Modes said
"That's why I try not to over discuss things."
"talk not over much!" - CCXX III:42
616
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@Michael Staley said
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@Aum418 said
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. " - Aristotle
IAO131"Thanks for that, Aum418, though I'm not sure the quote from Aristotle is applicable in this instance.
I wonder if in future you might indicate posts where you are adopting a stance purely as a debating exercise. Then I'll know not to waste my time responding to them.
Best wishes always,
Michael."
My point was that I can have an interest in Eastern Mysticism without adopting all of its tenets.
Do you intentionally approach all your posts to me as a passive aggressive bore?
IAO131
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@Steven Cranmer said
"I suppose I'm with Aum418 (and maybe gurugeorge... and even Erwin Hessle, to an extent) on this, in that I share much of that ultimate reductionism. I continue to hope there's a place in the "big tent" of Thelema for those who are enchanted by the beauty and truth of the Holy Books, and who want to explore aspects of the path of self-discovery outlined by the A.'.A.'., while not really getting into the more... um... paranormal aspects?"
Yes, there certainly is a place in the "big tent" for Thelemites of all shapes, sizes, and diversities of interests. Rationalism is indispensible in daily living; however, magical and mystical experience reaches beyond the rational. That doesn't mean that one has to accept things indiscriminately; it does mean, though, that one doesn't discard experience on the grounds that it is not rational. It's not an either/or situation; both logic and intuition are necessary to me.
Best wishes,
Michael.
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If we imagine the world as an ocean, we are like the ripples on the ocean. Formations like ripples and waves occur, because of wind, tides, and other kinetic forces. In the Buddhist analogy, the universe is in motion due to karmic forces. A ripple, a wave, or a billow may seem as an individual entity for a moment, creating the illusion that it has a self, but it is gone in the next moment. The truth is that all individuals are one. A ripple is a temporary phenomenon; it is just water in motion. We know that kinetic energy causes wave forms on a body of water and it would be ridiculous to say that a single ripple or wave has a self.
Similarly, in case of beings, the process of coming into life and being conditioned in a particular way is caused by karmic forces. The up and down of the ocean's waves corresponds with the rotation of the wheel of life. The sea that surges, falls, and resurges, is the life that is born, dies, and is reborn again. It is therefore obvious that we should not focus on the temporary phenomenon of the wave, but on the force that causes, forms, and drives it. Nothing else is said, although in more practical terms, in the Eightfold Path.
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First and foremost, let me just say this to the OP: you are an sterling example of bravery, for it takes a certain amount of bravery to offer up to criticism ones most closely held beliefs; kudos.
That said, I shall now play "the devil's advocate" and argue against Aum418 in support of the OP.
Aum418: We meet again...and what - is this scene not a familiar one? In short, we have argued about this before have we not? Was I so unable to convince you of just how the position you are holding is somewhat reminiscent of "magickal thinking"; that a cause "seemingly" corresponds to b event?
Consider: if the brain is damaged, does it necessarily follow that consciousness is so damaged? So far, it seemed you'd argue "yes". Thus, I ask: how? The brain is not, itself, consciousness nor have we anyway, thus far, to make consciousness an object of study; ie: the brain is a material object, while consciousness is ever a subject - objective/subjective. Where is consciousness, then, in/of the brain? You argue quite stauchly that it is so: where, Aum418? Which atom(s), molecule(s), sub-atomic particle(s), cell(s), tissue(s), radiation(s), activity(ies), ...ad infinitum? And what - pray tell - shall be your proof besides a lop-sided causal correspondence? Just because the brain is damaged, it does not necessarily follow that consciousness is as well. The above notion of a wrecked car is actually quite fitting.
On the point of death then, one might reflect upon the notions of existence/non-existence and the logical absurditites which abound when we take the view - as most do - that the states of existence/non-existence (ie: annihilation) "co-exist"! What sort of madness is that...and we call it reason?! The self is not ever "annihilated" - that which exsists always exists; it cannot do or be otherwise. ...Though it is not ever "annihilated", it most certainly does - as motion necessitates - change or transform. As most occult/esoteric groups teach: death is no end - is nothing to be feared. Thus, I wonder: what is so difficult about that? What is more "magickal" - seeing an inert body and concluding - from that alone - that the individual is likely "gone" even if the rest of the universe doesn't seem to work that way, or seeing an inert body and concluding that they are likely in the process of changing or transforming from/of one state to another, given that's how the rest of the universe seems to work?
...Of course, I do realize I've hardly touched upon reincarnation as of yet. Nevertheless, perchance it is best if we can take this sort of debate one step at a time.
Thanks for your time,
QaZsE - Fr. T.E.U.