Probationary work clarifications
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Ok, after having read all of the posts on this thread I realize I will probably not get any feedback from my previous question.
But I am not in the Probation phase.
I am just studying A:.A:. material and looking at how I will apply it to my life at present. I understand much of the material and see the benefit behind its theory. I know my question seems a bit juvenile, but I have thought this, concerning Liber LXV for quite some time.I know that even Liber AL changes voices and is hard to understand at times, but it is a cohesive work IMO and I would count it very beneficial to memorize a chapter if not the entire work. But LXV just seems like a hodge-podge. It seemingly begins with rhyme and reason and then just falls all over the place. Maybe that is the reason for having to memorize such an article, because it is difficult to memorize something of its nature, I don't know?
For instance, the verse that reads, "Oh honey boy..." The commentary states that this is a reference to the bezoar stone? Come on, the verse does not even resemble the previous topic of such. My first impression was homo-erotic poetic verse...anyone else?
I would like to know how some of you have benefited from this Liber.
PS: One thing I find interesting on this forum:
If Motta's group under Bersson is so great, why are so many people from his group asking questions HERE? Is the great sphinx not available?
Here we have Jim constantly helping out here with true concern and care for aspirants. Do we eat at the Steak House and then go to Burger King to pay the bill?93 93/93
-Xkip
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@xkip93 said
"Ok, after having read all of the posts on this thread I realize I will probably not get any feedback from my previous question.
But I am not in the Probation phase.
I am just studying A:.A:. material and looking at how I will apply it to my life at present. I understand much of the material and see the benefit behind its theory. I know my question seems a bit juvenile, but I have thought this, concerning Liber LXV for quite some time.I would like to know how some of you have benefited from this Liber.
PS: One thing I find interesting on this forum:
If Motta's group under Bersson is so great, why are so many people from his group asking questions HERE? Is the great sphinx not available?
Here we have Jim constantly helping out here with true concern and care for aspirants. Do we eat at the Steak House and then go to Burger King to pay the bill?93 93/93
-Xkip"
93, Hi Xkip, Thanks, I needed that laugh. I guess many here are starving for information and help. 93 93/93 Persephone
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@xkip93 said
"I am currently preparing for the probationary period and putting together a personal regiment. In doing so I know it is necessary to memorize a chapter of Liber LXV. Is there any suggestions as to this process? Any particular chapter more advisable than any other?"
You should pick your own chapter. People do this for different reasons. It seems wrong to me to suggest a basis for you to decide this, because it's a highly personal decision. Usually, in hindsight, the chapter a person selects says a great deal about what they need in their Way.
As for "suggestions as to the process," what exactly do you mean? How to memorize? Different techniques. Soror Meral memorized every chapter of Libri 65, 7, and 220 over a few years by taking the chapter she was working on and reading it every night just before sleep. She then would keep this fresh, after she had all 15 chapters memorized, by reciting one every morning. - I made use of this as a general background, but have a mind that "builds from scratch," so I'd always lock down one verse, then build the second on it recite both, then add the third etc. over some period of weeks.
One of my favorite tricks - I used it myself, and have recommended it to others for whom it has succeeded - is based on the nearly universal observation that one often can't get out of one's head a song heard on the radio. So I taped my chapter on a cassette tape and played it over and over in my car while driving. This accelerated the memorization.
"Now, I must admit. I have read this over and over and read the commentary and I still do not fully get it. I get so much out of many of Crowley's other works which are deep, yet understandable and not totally cryptic."
It takes many years, and doesn't get entirely clear until some significant initiation steps have been taken. Also, this book really isn't created to be understood rationally (although it's quite capable of being understood rationally). It's meant to overwhelm your soul. From the act of memorization, and of constant repetition of any chapter from this book, you are changed.
"Why was this the piece chosen for this? I mean much of Crowley's works are so much more poetical and even beautiful...but this Liber really does not resonate with me like some others. "
Personal tastes vary. Personally, I don't think there's a single thing that emerged from Crowley's pen more beautiful than Liber 65. (I just said so in my talk here in NYC Saturday
) It is assigned to the Probationer because the first Great Task is to attain to the K&C of the HGA; and then Liber VII to the 1=10 because the next Great Task is crossing the abyss; and then Liber CCXX to the 2=9 because it leads to the highest attainments.Additionally, Liber LXV expresses itself through the Elements, which are the basis of the first stage of training, so it prepares one for the First Order initiation at 1=10; and Liber VII through the Planets, which are the next order of training, and thus helps prepare for the Second Order initiation at 2=9.
The real intention, I think, is to saturate the soul with the beauty and sublimity of this tale of the adept's relationship to the HGA as expressed from the p.o.v. of the respective Elements.
"Even the commentary supposedly expounding on it does not reveal much. It almost appears to be grasping at straws at times. Anyone else feel this way when they started?"
No, I never did. I (figuratively) sat patiently and attentively at the feet of the commentary to grasp whatever fragment of light I could, given my dark ignorance.
The commentary (which BTW is not part of anything assigned - it was written decades later - but it can be an enormous help) is written from a very high state. Written by a Magus, it speaks of the reality of the Adept and, in places, of the Magister. It will serve study and restudy for decades.
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93 Jim,
This is exactly why I made the previous comments about you genuinely helping others. Your answer was exactly what I was looking for as you have shed LVX on LXV.
You have shown that you deem this a sacred book with great depth, and coming from you this motivates me to study it, memorize it, and glean from it what truth I can. (Lest I lean to my own limited understanding and think that Crowley has played a joke on all of us).
Along with some tips on memorization and clarifying that it is truly up to the individual to pick which verse to memorize I think you have placed me on the right track. I appreciate your help.
-Xkip
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@xkip93 said
"For instance, the verse that reads, "Oh honey boy..." The commentary states that this is a reference to the bezoar stone? Come on, the verse does not even resemble the previous topic of such. My first impression was homo-erotic poetic verse...anyone else?
I would like to know how some of you have benefited from this Liber.
"I too *had * been trying to memorize a verse. I was trying last year, and then basically had it down -in segments with a little bit of prodding- then promptly forgot it.
The great benefit though is now when I read the chapter I picked, it's like an old friend of sorts. Strange because it's familiar, yet not fully remembered. I will, one day, try to memorize it fully.It has a much different feel than Liber AL but I like it. It is more "random" if you will. Apparently (?) a lot of Greek literature references... has a strange classical feel to me, imagery-wise. Yes the "honey boy" is homoerotic, as far as I can tell. The angel is here male, and the speaker is male, so....
Presumably that type of eros is how Crowley interpreted the interaction with the HGA? -
@xkip93 said
"PS: One thing I find interesting on this forum:
If Motta's group under Bersson is so great, why are so many people from his group asking questions HERE? Is the great sphinx not available?
Here we have Jim constantly helping out here with true concern and care for aspirants. Do we eat at the Steak House and then go to Burger King to pay the bill?93 93/93
-Xkip"
I'd say this statement is definitely uncalled for and unnecessary. Bersson doesn't use a public forum (I am not a student of Bersson's by the way) to communicate with the "at large" community like Jim does and to judge him based on THAT criteria is an unfair judgement. I think it is unbecoming to disparage someone like this on a public forum behind a screen name & especially when that person isn't a contributor to this forum.
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@frateruranus said
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@xkip93 said
"PS: One thing I find interesting on this forum:
If Motta's group under Bersson is so great, why are so many people from his group asking questions HERE? Is the great sphinx not available?
Here we have Jim constantly helping out here with true concern and care for aspirants. Do we eat at the Steak House and then go to Burger King to pay the bill?93 93/93
-Xkip"
I'd say this statement is definitely uncalled for and unnecessary. Bersson doesn't use a public forum (I am not a student of Bersson's by the way) to communicate with the "at large" community like Jim does and to judge him based on THAT criteria is an unfair judgement. I think it is unbecoming to disparage someone like this on a public forum behind a screen name & especially when that person isn't a contributor to this forum."
93, Frateruranus,
Normally I would agree with you. To insult a private person by name online is never correct. But Mr. Bersson has set himself up as either a Magus or an Ipsissmus and on his website he is denigrating other magicians publicly in his unique, vicious way. I wasn't sure that he still had a site so I checked. Currently on it he has a whole tirade against Daniel Gunther, for example. I think it is called You Are Not Forgiven.
There is another section in which he threatens all A.'.A.'. lineages that he considers false, in the most vile and graphic way.
I was a student of his for several years so I can tell you that this is what he is like. In my humble opinion, that lineage reminds me of a dysfunctional family where each has a role to play in perpetuating the problems. And believe me, I am being kind. At first you think that it is some kind of test and the real person will emerge. But then you see that this is the real person. And what I am telling you here is a fraction of what is happening on other levels, like an iceberg. I borrowed that analogy from Dion Fortune by the way. I reccommend her small book called Esoteric Orders and their Work.
Throughout my association with Bersson I was never sent one student even though I had reached a level where I might expect one. As far as he was concerned I was doing what I was supposed to do so this seemed odd.
So, it seems that the Internet is doing us a service-- you can see clearly what people are offering before you make a decision, where in the past we could not. Believe me, I don't enjoy writing this on a publc forum. But I think this raises alot of important issues that can't be brushed under the rug. Again, as in a dysfunctional family. 93 93/93 Persephone -
One more quick question concerning Liber LXV:
In Chapter 1, where it reads, "V.V.V.V.V" what are we to say?
(ducking for the blatantly obvious answer to be screamed at me)
I know what it stands for but just wondering what exactly to quote.
PS. Believe me, I find great beauty in this Liber although I have gotten a little frustrated with it... by the time I get through IV, I am almost tapped out it seems. Kind of like when I reach the 14th aethyr...
JUST KIDDING.
93 93/93
Xkip
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@xkip93 said
"One more quick question concerning Liber LXV:
In Chapter 1, where it reads, "V.V.V.V.V" what are we to say?"
"Vee Vee Vee Vee Vee."
Similarly, in reading Liber LXI, such names as "Frater P." and "D.D.S." are to be pronounced, "Frater Pee" and "Dee Dee Ess."
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@Persephone said
"93, Frateruranus,
Normally I would agree with you. To insult a private person by name online is never correct. But Mr. Bersson has set himself up as either a Magus or an Ipsissmus and on his website he is denigrating other magicians publicly in his unique, vicious way. I wasn't sure that he still had a site so I checked. Currently on it he has a whole tirade against Daniel Gunther, for example. I think it is called You Are Not Forgiven. "Yes, I was a student of his as well. My point though is not to reduce yourself to that level, to doing the same thing. By their fruits and all that. When were you a student of Bersson? Were you in the Pittsburgh group?
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@frateruranus said
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@Persephone said
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93, Frateruranus,
Normally I would agree with you. To insult a private person by name online is never correct. But Mr. Bersson has set himself up as either a Magus or an Ipsissmus and on his website he is denigrating other magicians publicly in his unique, vicious way. I wasn't sure that he still had a site so I checked. Currently on it he has a whole tirade against Daniel Gunther, for example. I think it is called You Are Not Forgiven. "Yes, I was a student of his as well. My point though is not to reduce yourself to that level, to doing the same thing. By their fruits and all that. When were you a student of Bersson? Were you in the Pittsburgh group?"
Do you mean Xkip's joke? Its bound to happen once in awhile, I bet there are alot of ex-students around. I don't like the garbage of personal slurs found on some websites, its what turns many people off to magick totally.
I can't help feeling that something more is involved than just personalities. Anyway, after leaving or being kicked out, it takes awhile to get your bearings and see what really was happening. Maybe not in your case, certainly in mine.
I'd rather not go into any more personal info here, I'll send a P.M. Persephone -
@Persephone said
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@frateruranus said
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@Persephone said
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93, Frateruranus,
Normally I would agree with you. To insult a private person by name online is never correct. But Mr. Bersson has set himself up as either a Magus or an Ipsissmus and on his website he is denigrating other magicians publicly in his unique, vicious way. I wasn't sure that he still had a site so I checked. Currently on it he has a whole tirade against Daniel Gunther, for example. I think it is called You Are Not Forgiven. "Yes, I was a student of his as well. My point though is not to reduce yourself to that level, to doing the same thing. By their fruits and all that. When were you a student of Bersson? Were you in the Pittsburgh group?"
Do you mean Xkip's joke? Its bound to happen once in awhile, I bet there are alot of ex-students around. I don't like the garbage of personal slurs found on some websites, its what turns many people off to magick totally.
I can't help feeling that something more is involved than just personalities. Anyway, after leaving or being kicked out, it takes awhile to get your bearings and see what really was happening. Maybe not in your case, certainly in mine.
I'd rather not go into any more personal info here, I'll send a P.M. Persephone"It took me 11 years to assimilate what happened when I left his tutelage, I am only now starting to understand what was going on psychically.
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93, Frateruranus, I don't think that's unusual. I guess we all have our stories, each one somewhat different. from what you have said and what myself and others have gone thru, it seems there has to be a long time of re-thinking and healing. From my experience, many in that lineage who had any standing were unbalanced. And in my case the unbalance became local right before I quit. It all co-incided with severe family illness, which they said I shouldn't care about. That and other signs of 'unbalance', made me leave.
I suppose those of us who are in this boat are all figuring out what to do, and are trying to continue to work according to our instincts. Yes, its confusing. 93 93/93 Persephone -
For me the crisis was the still birth of my daughter... I ran to Pittsburgh to avoid dealing with it & it was always something on my mind. When I left I was in excellent standing though... it was an all of a sudden I woke up and couldn't see myself stil working with them.
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@frateruranus said
"For me the crisis was the still birth of my daughter... I ran to Pittsburgh to avoid dealing with it & it was always something on my mind. When I left I was in excellent standing though... it was an all of a sudden I woke up and couldn't see myself stil working with them."
That is a very hard thing to go through. I hope that eventually after leaving the group, you got some closure.
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93,
I have questions now concerning my regular practices. I have been doing the Bornless Ritual for a little while now as an invocation with what I thought were good results. (Results just meaning a deeper understanding of the Invokation itself and a very thick presence in the room giving an air of heavy silence condusive to meditation).
Now, from studying more about A:.A:. and the degree systems within Thelema I see that this is supposed to be done by the Adept.
My question is probably obvious now. Am I to discontinue this ritual because I am not up to par, as in Adeptus Minor?
Also, if that is the case, what else is "off limits' so to speak?
Can I perform the Mass of the Phoenix? The Star Sapphire?Do I have to feel like (according to Thelemic organizational standards) that I will not be able to have the Conversation of my HGA without attaining a certain grade and I cannot even do certain ritual work towards that goal?
I never used to think in these terms and now it seems to be a hinderance more than liberating. Now I get this feeling like I am not "worthy" to work with parts of this system which I used to look forward to mastering.
Any suggestions?
93 93/93
-Xkip
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@xkip93 said
"Now, from studying more about A:.A:. and the degree systems within Thelema I see that this is supposed to be done by the Adept.
My question is probably obvious now. Am I to discontinue this ritual because I am not up to par, as in Adeptus Minor?"
I'll write from the "working assumption" that you're intending to follow the same program as a Probationer.
In that case, there is no such prohibition because it's nobody's place to tell a Probationer what to do - just to assess what they have done when it's over.
Probably the biggest temptation of the stage is to do anything whatsoever except the work immediately in front of one. Sometimes that's a mistake, and sometimes it isn't - there's no universal rule.
OTOH, the work actually assigned to the stage are the Class B documents, with primary attention on Liber E and Liber O (in addition to the requirement to memorize a chapter of Liber LXV).
"Do I have to feel like (according to Thelemic organizational standards) that I will not be able to have the Conversation of my HGA without attaining a certain grade and I cannot even do certain ritual work towards that goal?"
That's an awkward question because, de facto (if not officially), you'll be an Adeptus Minor if you attain to the Knowledge & Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel.
But language may be getting in the way. There are huge areas of communion with the HGA long before the Adeptus stage. Few leave the 1=10 grade without having a stage of communion that includes active (often auditory) ongoing dialogue. It's awesome! And it deepens and transforms grade by grade. But it's far - I mean, really far! - below what is intended by the technical term, "Knowledge & Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel."
Which is to say: Nobody can tell you in advance what your path will be, although experience with a number of people gives some understanding and reasonable insight into the nature of the Path. And, though a particular goal may be far down the road, perseverance in the work will give significant, important results - perhaps results exceeding your current fantasies - long before that.
Just don't make the mistake of confusing the latter with the former. Instead, take it as encouragement. (I believe the first section of Liber O has some important things to say in this regard.)
"I never used to think in these terms and now it seems to be a hinderance more than liberating. Now I get this feeling like I am not "worthy" to work with parts of this system which I used to look forward to mastering."
It's not a matter of worth. It's a matter of what works at a given stage. If you want to climb up on the roof of the house, and the ladder is presently in the garage, it doesn't do much good to start climbing the ladder before finishing the step of moving it over to the side of the house.
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
Greetings everyone,
In my previous work with GD materials, knowing it came from Rosicrucian framework and being inherantly "Christian" in many ways, the use of YHVH never bothered me. But as years went by and I studied more Gnostic material it is apparent that many do not view Yahweh/Jahovah as a "good" god.
Knowing Crowley's distain for many aspects of Christianity and Judaism, why did even he continue with using the Tetragrammaton as a name of power?
There are many ways I can frame this question but I think you get the idea. I still use the Name as it has gained strength for me due to constant use over the years. But sometimes it seems that I am using a "jewish" god-name of sorts, and other times I see it in a more universal qabalistic sense.
Mixed emotions from mixed currents maybe?
Some say that the Star Ruby replaced the LBRP and that all of those other rituals are "old aeon" but we still find the QBL Cross of Light with the Hebrew names along with the LBRP still embedded in Thelema materials?
Love is the law, love under will
-Xkip
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@xkip93 said
"Knowing Crowley's distain for many aspects of Christianity and Judaism, why did even he continue with using the Tetragrammaton as a name of power?"
He didn't confuse the Qabalistic Names with a particular religion. That is, theqabalist's and magician's YHVH isn't the "Jehovah" of popular Judeo-Christian religion, but an esoteric idea completely central to all of Qabalah.
In the last years of his life, he wrote Grady McMurtry that the one thing that does not change, from aeon to aeon, is YHVH.
"Some say that the Star Ruby replaced the LBRP and that all of those other rituals are "old aeon" but we still find the QBL Cross of Light with the Hebrew names along with the LBRP still embedded in Thelema materials?"
Yes, and it is the classic Lesser Ritual of the Pentagram that AC himself used until the end of his life; and it is the LBRP, not the Star Ruby, that he sent to Agape Lodge O.T.O. in the late 1930s with new, supplemental instruction on its performance.
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@RifRaf said
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Yes, and it is the classic Lesser Ritual of the Pentagram that AC himself used until the end of his life; and it is the LBRP, not the Star Ruby, that he sent to Agape Lodge O.T.O. in the late 1930s with new, supplemental instruction on its performance."Are these instructions those which are in Liber ABA (the short paper presenting the idea of standing at Samekh and Peh)? Or some other, or have they not been publicly published?"
I never look in that edition of MT&P (though it sits on my shelf), so I don't know off the top of my head. (I didn't remember seeing it there.) I prefer Crowley's edition.
They were published in Vol. I, No. 1 of In the Continuum, all the way back in 1973, which you can download here:
helema.org/publications/itc.html