catholic church
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hello and 93!
i was wondering if you guys think the catholic church can convert to thelema? after all, catholic just means "universal" or "complete".
of course this will never happen, but it would be amusing to see it happen. in fact, they should probably have to drop the osiris/crucified god mithos and adopt the image of christ as a child, more in line with heruraha-rahoor khuit.
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I think it could happen in a world that's very different from the one we currently live in. But I don't see any necessity or desirability of such an event. If a billion people called themselves Thelemites, I suspect the definition of "Thelemite" is the thing that would have changed more then the actual mindset of those billion people.
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@bryan said
"If a billion people called themselves Thelemites, I suspect the definition of "Thelemite" is the thing that would have changed more then the actual mindset of those billion people."
i see your point, but what are the requirements for one calling himself or herself a thelemite? is it just accepting the book of the law or in addition to that maybe finding their true will.
i'm assuming that finding your true will happens at 5=6 and not before?ruby
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@Sphynx said
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@miss ruby said
"i was wondering if you guys think the catholic church can convert to thelema? ... of course this will never happen ..."It looks like you already answered your own question."
well, you are right. it is wishful thinking. the oto accepted thelema after it was formed... but it was the prophet that revamped the order.
ruby
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@miss ruby said
"but what are the requirements for one calling himself or herself a thelemite? is it just accepting the book of the law or in addition to that maybe finding their true will.
i'm assuming that finding your true will happens at 5=6 and not before?"From what I've read many times on this forum by experienced folk like Jim, discovering your true will does not necessarily occur at 5=6. K&C of the HGA and discovering your true will are not the same event. Apparently discovering your true will often happens a while before 5=6.
Anyway, I think the requirements for calling yourself a Thelemite is that you say or think "I am a Thelemite". I don't think I could get into any debate about what a Thelemite "REALLY" is because all definitions seem to be are something that a bunch of people basically agree on. This means that definitions can change if a whole lot of people (like, say, the 1 billion catholics on earth) changed their idea of the definition. And since word definitions are more pliable than people and their belief systems, I think the Catholics (in this scenario) would change what it means to be a "Thelemite", before Thelema changed what it meant to be a Catholic.
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@bryan said
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@miss ruby said
"but what are the requirements for one calling himself or herself a thelemite? is it just accepting the book of the law or in addition to that maybe finding their true will.
i'm assuming that finding your true will happens at 5=6 and not before?"From what I've read many times on this forum by experienced folk like Jim, discovering your true will does not necessarily occur at 5=6. K&C of the HGA and discovering your true will are not the same event. Apparently discovering your true will often happens a while before 5=6.
Anyway, I think the requirements for calling yourself a Thelemite is that you say or think "I am a Thelemite". I don't think I could get into any debate about what a Thelemite "REALLY" is because all definitions seem to be are something that a bunch of people basically agree on. This means that definitions can change if a whole lot of people (like, say, the 1 billion catholics on earth) changed their idea of the definition. And since word definitions are more pliable than people and their belief systems, I think the Catholics (in this scenario) would change what it means to be a "Thelemite", before Thelema changed what it meant to be a Catholic."
hello bryan,
i am curious now about the "calling yourself a thelemite" part... and just thinking out loud, the book of the law says that if you look close into the word, for there are therein three grades; so i would tend to think that some kind of initiation/transformation needs to take place? yes?
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@miss ruby said
"the book of the law says that if you look close into the word, for there are therein three grades; so i would tend to think that some kind of initiation/transformation needs to take place? yes?"
I too think that an initiation/transformation would have to take place if one were to abide by the law of thelema (if they had not been doing so in the past). But I also think that calling yourself a Thelemite, and abiding by the law of thelema do not necessarily imply each other. I think most beings/systems in our universe abide by the law of thelema, and don't call themselves Thelemites. In turn, it would be pretty easy for a human to call him/herself a Thelemite and not abide by the law of thelema.
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@bryan said
"I think most beings/systems in our universe abide by the law of thelema, and don't call themselves Thelemites. In turn, it would be pretty easy for a human to call him/herself a Thelemite and not abide by the law of thelema."
Yes! (seconded).
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@bryan said
"I think most beings/systems in our universe abide by the law of thelema, and don't call themselves Thelemites. "
Are you talking about human-established systems?
@bryan said
"In turn, it would be pretty easy for a human to call him/herself a Thelemite and not abide by the law of thelema."
It is already happening. In fact, it has been happening for quite some time. I agree, turning it into a discussion of who is a real thelemite and who is not, will backfire because creates the illusion of separation and the idea of I'm better than you or I'm holier than thou!
See what happened with the Catholic Church and the Inquisition.In L.V.X.
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@Metzareph said
"Are you talking about human-established systems?"
I'm talking about systems in the general sense: a system being any set of interacting entities. The statement I made may not be true concerning some human-established systems, but I suspect it is true of all non-human-established systems, what we often call "nature".
@Metzareph said
"It is already happening. In fact, it has been happening for quite some time. I agree, turning it into a discussion of who is a real thelemite and who is not, will backfire because creates the illusion of separation and the idea of I'm better than you or I'm holier than thou!
See what happened with the Catholic Church and the Inquisition."This is why I feel that it is important, especially for people new to Thelema, to recognize that one does not necessarily need to self-identify as "Thelemite" in order to live by the law of Thelema, or in order to accept the Book of the Law. Hell, I don't even think it is necessary to accept the Book of the Law in order to abide by what we call the law of Thelema!
I'd hate to see a Thelemic Inquisition in 500 years. RHK might get a kick out of it though.
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@bryan said
" This is why I feel that it is important, especially for people new to Thelema, to recognize that one does not necessarily need to self-identify as "Thelemite" in order to live by the law of Thelema, or in order to accept the Book of the Law."
I largely agree. I don't -at the moment- feel fully comfortable with the label myself. I think about the Liber AL quote "Who calls us Thelemites will do no wrong, if he look but close into the word." If anything, the adjective is suggested but not mandated.
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Yeah, actually one gets the impression it's something others call you if they see it in you.
It's like: suppose people see someone with impeccable integrity who is following his or her Genius - "Ah, a Thelemite!", they'll say.
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@gurugeorge said
"Yeah, actually one gets the impression it's something others call you if they see it in you.
It's like: suppose people see someone with impeccable integrity who is following his or her Genius - "Ah, a Thelemite!", they'll say."
Interesting thought. That being the case, I would find it impossible to say for sure if I were one or not unless I were damn sure that I was doing my will.
I've also heard it pointed out that in that verse, it is Nuit who is saying "Who calls us Thelemites..."
Whatever that might mean...