Skeptical of Crowley
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Greetings and Salutations!
I've been following the discussions around here for a few days and find them very informative. I'm considering joining OTO as I think it is a fantastic magickal order however I have some reservations about Crowley.
With regards to Thelemic ideals, I find the basic precepts of the doctrine quite sound. In my own way I have equated "True Will" to Nietzsche's "Will to Power" and there are commonalities with the Tao - all philosophies which I embrace on some level. I have even noticed that several other schools or "teachers" under whom I have studied have embraced Thelemic precepts without realizing any correlation to Crowley. For example a recent healing course that I went on which was supposedly divulged / channeled from the ascended master Serapis by an individual with Theosophical leanings equates directly with the ethical precepts that Jim elaborated on in www.heruraha.net/viewtopic.php?t=3365&highlight=healing. All in all I find Thelemic precepts quite sound however there are some concerns - I suppose my issues are more with Crowley as a "role model" than Thelema per se - though I do find it difficult to separate a prophet's "Law" from himself as an embodiment of that Law.
I find it difficult to accept that Crowley was completely "in touch" with his True Will (If I understand True will correctly); for example when I read about him trying to take over AMORC and failing. I suppose one could apologetically argue that it was his True Will to try and fail but then we end up without the parsimony of great philosophies such as Taoism. (which still retain greater depth than their superficial meaning). I've heard it mentioned that True Will is both a goal as well as a moment-to-moment "doing" - the latter which I have personally "glimpsed" and have in my layman effort correlated to the Tao and Buddhist Dharma and I suppose Zen. I suppose it is this latter interpretation of True Will that concerns me for if one simply gets some instruction from one's HGA to say "form a new world religion" and then contact with the "True Will" or HGA is somehow lost for some period of time, we might be excused for making mistakes in manifesting that particular instruction in a particular form or not. Hence it is the latter that concerns me for I cannot reconcile the idea of a moment-to-moment practice of one's True Will (which having the impetus of the Universe behind us should equate in some way to the Tao) and some of Crowley's actions. Another example - surely if he was deeply in touch with the ebb and flow of life, the "unconscious" he could have cured himself of asthma - perhaps he was dealing with some Karma before his final transition? I don't know. There are just too many questions about him personally that don't seem to make a hell of a lot of sense. I can appreciate some of the dualities in Crowley's life, some of the "shadow" aspects (he seemed to do a lot of what Jung called "Shadow" work) I just find that his life seems to be filled with a lack of parsimony and sometimes a lack of understanding.
Perhaps I am just naive about these things and I'm not here to discredit anyone's prophet. I'm simply here to satisfy my skepticism and grow in knowledge (and of course overcome my own complexes!). I think it's imply a case of "why should I learn your master's Kung fu?".
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@modernPrimitive said
"Greetings and Salutations!
I've been following the discussions around here for a few days and find them very informative. I'm considering joining OTO as I think it is a fantastic magical order however I have some reservations about Crowley."
Well the OTO holds Crowley the prophet/man is quite high regard... He IS the Prophet of the New Aeon/the Law.
"With regards to Thelemic ideals, I find the basic precepts of the doctrine quite sound. In my own way I have equated "True Will" to Nietzsche's "Will to Power""
Yes, except Thelema is a Will-to-Love (two elements combine to create a third, instead of Nietzsche's notion of one thing overpowering another)...
" and there are commonalities with the Tao - all philosophies which I embrace on some level. /quote]
Indeed... You might like Crowley's 'translation' of the Tao Teh King (its really an application of Thelema to Taoism in a way).
"All in all I find Thelemic precepts quite sound however there are some concerns - I suppose my issues are more with Crowley as a "role model" than Thelema per se - though I do find it difficult to separate a prophet's "Law" from himself as an embodiment of that Law."
Thelema is not about an imitatio Crowley (like imitatio CHristi), its about DO WHAT THOU WILT. Find yourself, be yourself, do your thing... not Crowley's.
"I find it difficult to accept that Crowley was completely "in touch" with his True Will (If I understand True will correctly); for example when I read about him trying to take over AMORC and failing."
Perhaps he didn't have 'lust of result'?
"I suppose one could apologetically argue that it was his True Will to try and fail but then we end up without the parsimony of great philosophies such as Taoism. (which still retain greater depth than their superficial meaning)."
Its still quite simple - teh failure taught him his limits and glilded him for future battles. Hell, he might have even had fun trying and not been attached to the results...
"I've heard it mentioned that True Will is both a goal as well as a moment-to-moment "doing" - the latter which I have personally "glimpsed" and have in my layman effort correlated to the Tao and Buddhist Dharma and I suppose Zen. I suppose it is this latter interpretation of True Will that concerns me for if one simply gets some instruction from one's HGA to say "form a new world religion" and then contact with the "True Will" or HGA is somehow lost for some period of time, we might be excused for making mistakes in manifesting that particular instruction in a particular form or not."
I tend to think that the former interpretation is a mistake or a rationalization of the latter experience. Check 'the Will is Supra-Rational' out in the The Journal of Thelemic Studies, Vol.2 No.1...
Hence it is the latter that concerns me for I cannot reconcile the idea of a moment-to-moment practice of one's True Will (which having the impetus of the Universe behind us should equate in some way to the Tao) and some of Crowley's actions. Another example - surely if he was deeply in touch with the ebb and flow of life, the "unconscious" he could have cured himself of asthma - perhaps he was dealing with some Karma before his final transition? I don't know. There are just too many questions about him personally that don't seem to make a hell of a lot of sense. I can appreciate some of the dualities in Crowley's life, some of the "shadow" aspects (he seemed to do a lot of what Jung called "Shadow" work)
"I just find that his life seems to be filled with a lack of parsimony and sometimes a lack of understanding."
"FIrst of all, Thelema isnt about parsimony necessarily. Sure, the Will itself must be one-pointed and 'simple' in the sense of not many complex ideas imposing themselves on your actions... but Thelema is about luxuriousness, wine, good clothes, etc. to if you want to see that part, i.e. living like Kings & Queens. Second of all, Crowley was in many ways simply showing the many possibilities of human experience with his life. We arent all supposed to be chess players, mountain climbers, or even great occultists - we're supposed to do our own Will. Thelema is unique in that sense - that it doesnt impose an a priori notion of virtue/what is right for people to imitate... but its also a much heavier responsibility for hte individual to figure it out for themselves.
IAO131
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"I have equated "True Will" to Nietzsche's "Will to Power""
By one interpretation Nietzsche talks about the same will and about its ability to "create new horizons."
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I Must agree about Nietzsche's "Will-to-power". It is often interpreted in a sort of Darwinian sense.
I have found strength where one does not look for it: in simple, mild, and pleasant people, without the least desire to rule—and, conversely, the desire to rule has often appeared to me a sign of inward weakness: they fear their own slave soul and shroud it in a royal cloak (in the end, they still become the slaves of their followers, their fame, etc.) The powerful natures dominate, it is a necessity, they need not lift one finger. Even if, during their lifetime, they bury themselves in a garden house
- Friedrich Nietzsche. Nachlass, Fall 1880
Aum418, thanks for your response - you've given me a lot to think about. I do hold Crowley in high regard but Id ont' necessarily agree with him on all aspects (of course since I'm here to learn, that may well change as time goes by). Perhaps as you have said it is the "imitatio Christi" concept that so many religions hold that does not apply to Thelema so we should not conflate these issues. But on that matter isn't Crowley (or the Beast) "deified" in some of the rituals - I'm not that familiar with the New Aeon rituals (only the GD stuff) though I did briefly read through a few of them a while back.
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@modernPrimitive said
"I Must agree about Nietzsche's "Will-to-power". It is often interpreted in a sort of Darwinian sense.
I have found strength where one does not look for it: in simple, mild, and pleasant people, without the least desire to rule—and, conversely, the desire to rule has often appeared to me a sign of inward weakness: they fear their own slave soul and shroud it in a royal cloak (in the end, they still become the slaves of their followers, their fame, etc.) The powerful natures dominate, it is a necessity, they need not lift one finger. Even if, during their lifetime, they bury themselves in a garden house
- Friedrich Nietzsche. Nachlass, Fall 1880
Aum418, thanks for your response - you've given me a lot to think about. I do hold Crowley in high regard but Id ont' necessarily agree with him on all aspects (of course since I'm here to learn, that may well change as time goes by). Perhaps as you have said it is the "imitatio Christi" concept that so many religions hold that does not apply to Thelema so we should not conflate these issues. But on that matter isn't Crowley (or the Beast) "deified" in some of the rituals - I'm not that familiar with the New Aeon rituals (only the GD stuff) though I did briefly read through a few of them a while back."
93,
"THERION" in rituals can symbolize Chokmah and Atu XI... which Crowley in many ways symbolized (and manifested) in the physical but I dont (and Im sure many dont) see this as deification or reverence of Crowley. Then again, Liber AL says "blessing & worship to the prophet of the lovely Star!" People do this out of gratitude and awe of Liber AL/Thelema/Crowley's work, and its certainly not enforced by any Thelemites I know.
IAO131