Initiation in the Æon of the Child
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93,
Ive started writing an extensive, critical review of Gunther's book that touches on many of these points. So far there are 3 parts up to the Review although I dont know how many more I will post as the critiques will get repetitive. Chances are there will be at least one more installment. You can check out the review here:
I touch upon the NOX/death idea in there....
Partly in response to the ridiculous claim that Gunther's book would be any help at all to beginners (it wouldnt, it is dense, highly packed with intricate symbolism, and assumes a LOT of previous knowledge), I started writing an essay on 'New Aeon Initiation' without the ridiculous amount of esoteric jargon, Hebrew, Qabalah, etc.
You can find the first parts here:
Enjoy.
IAO131
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Fun fun fun, IAO131! Have to read those essays! And I liked the critique. I would have linked you but I knew you would come & do that yourself.
Edit: I have read the essays. Wonderful, enlightening, clearly expressed ideas but still philosophicaly not an easy read. I did enjoy it. I think, more extensive citation of other works would be needed in order to publish a book but for a blog post it's good! -
93,
Hi Jim
@Jim Eshelman said
"I and O are lingam and yoni - at cosmic levels, Hadit and Nuit (Yod and O, the center and the circumference). A is their child as pentagram between them.
Or, another way of saying it:
I = winged wand
A = stellar child
O = cup profound"This entire thread from the poetic piece on I.N.R.I. to this material (quoted above), along with the N.O.X. and L.V.X. discussion has been very profound. The movement from Hebrew to English and application of Symbols illustrating these 'shifts' is not only beautiful and resonant, but incredibly relevant on many different levels. Thank you so much for sharing this!
93 93/93
Dennis
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Gunther's comments on Mors Janua Vitae (Death is the Gate of Life) and the Two Horizons are right on.
IAO131 - I enjoy reading your review and essay on the Initiation in the Aeon of the Child, but your objections sometime sound like nit-picking or misunderstandings.
For example in the razing of the old to prepare for the new, this process will be "devastating" for some people because of their attachment to, and afterlife insurance being based on, Old Aeon rituals - not because Gunther is contradicting himself.
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@Modes said
"Fun fun fun, IAO131! Have to read those essays! And I liked the critique. I would have linked you but I knew you would come & do that yourself.
Edit: I have read the essays. Wonderful, enlightening, clearly expressed ideas but still philosophicaly not an easy read. I did enjoy it. I think, more extensive citation of other works would be needed in order to publish a book but for a blog post it's good!"93,
Thanks.
I cant tell whether you are referring to the Review or to the essay, New Aeon Initiation, but the latter is only 2/3 done and isnt a whole book in itself but will be a chapter in an upcoming book
IAO131
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@he atlas itch said
"Gunther's comments on Mors Janua Vitae (Death is the Gate of Life) and the Two Horizons are right on."
Definitely - the problem is that he says earlier that death is not part of hte initiation in the New Aeon although obviously contradicts himself later. I believe Death is the Gate of Life, as the New Aeon Initiation essay will show anyone.
"IAO131 - I enjoy reading your review and essay on the Initiation in the Aeon of the Child, but your objections sometime sound like nit-picking or misunderstandings.
For example in the razing of the old to prepare for the new, this process will be "devastating" for some people because of their attachment to, and afterlife insurance being based on, Old Aeon rituals - not because Gunther is contradicting himself."
I can understand - and sometimes I was so overwhelmed with the amount of small points I wanted to make that I made some arbitrary one and left the others out... Either way, the way I read Gunther wasnt that he was talking about the old aeon but explicitly about the new aeon at that point. Feel free to find quotations in the book to prove me wrong - the whole point isnt that death ISNT the gate of life but that Gunther himself claims it isnt but then later asserts very much so that it is.
My hugest problems with Gunther's book:
- His assertion that death is no longer the supreme attainment
- His assertion that NOX and not LVX is the formula (and not both)
- His assertion that Determinism is antithetical to Thelema
- His chapters are disorganized, follow no coherent plan or succession
- Most of his points are historical, qabalistic, and Old Aeon, i.e. where does this symbol come from and what are the ridiculously unnecessary qabalistic games we can play with it?
I can show how each one of these first three assertions is flatly contradicted by Crowley by about 10+ quotations each. It annoys me that he would take such ridiculously unsupported opinions and assert them as truth, and it annoys me how unorganized the book is (yes, I know its arranged according to Hebrew Letters and the Paths but that is highly disorganized, certain chapters seem almost unnecessary or filler, and there is no flow at all between chapters), and it annoys me that he focuses so much on historical and qabalistic intricacies without saying very much what it all MEANS (i.e. its all very abstract )
IAO131
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The concepts Gunther is covering and the progression of them makes sense to me - I’m glad someone finally wrote this book.
For example when Horus replaces Osiris in the West, this requires a radical reconsideration of what we mean by “death”. The Two Horizons were already discussed on this forum in the thread “Thoughts on Liber Resh” in the Magick section. If people are operating under an “Osirian” model of reality (as most people still do) it leads to serious confusion of past and future and obscures the potential of the present, which is unknown and undetermined.
We can glimpse this potential in the advances seen in genetics, nanotechnology, artificial intelligence, stem cell and medical research that are transforming the limitations of our reality. Writers such as Raymond Kurzweill have even suggested physical immortality may become a possibility in our lifetime. Scientists agree that, barring a global catastrophe, a 130 year life span becoming the norm by 2050 is a conservative estimate.
My point - what Gunther is describing in esoteric terms is occurring in the world today. I am personally of the opinion that moving beyond the Old Aeon requires a redefining of the concept of “human”. Or another way of looking at it is, the hidden potential in humanity begins to manifest in the New Aeon. This new horizon naturally leads to the next question - what is the nature of the second death?
Also think about why Gunther focuses so much on the Saturnian aspect. Saturn rules over matter and time as the principle of limitation, hierarchy and causality. Traditionally people have feared this reality principle with its castrating powers - reminding of us of our aging, mortality and susceptibility to pain and suffering along the way. Yet the evidence suggests the New Aeon, by definition, will be Saturnian in nature with real implications and stakes. The Great Work begins and our limitations start to be transformed only when Saturn's function is understood and valued.
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93,
For those interested, parts 4 & 5 of "New Aeon Initiation" can be found here
...and a PDF of the entire essay (all 5 parts) can **(http://www.thelemicstudies.com/NewAeonInitiation.pdf:1n814zp2)
IAO131
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W00t! Very good. Sorry for my grammar but I ment that I liked the review and after that enjoyed the essay too. I highly recommend them.
It's a wonderful idea to write an essay oneself than to write an extensive review about Gunthers book.
Concerning masters, gurus, teachers - you took a hard stance. I believe they are needed as guides, well, at least at the beggining. It's true that you have to integrate the experience but a master, substance etc. can cause the experience. But I agree that one should not be the slave of a master etc. -
@Modes said
"W00t! Very good. Sorry for my grammar but I ment that I liked the review and after that enjoyed the essay too. I highly recommend them.
It's a wonderful idea to write an essay oneself than to write an extensive review about Gunthers book.
Concerning masters, gurus, teachers - you took a hard stance. I believe they are needed as guides, well, at least at the beggining. It's true that you have to integrate the experience but a master, substance etc. can cause the experience. But I agree that one should not be the slave of a master etc."93,
The general idea is that the Flower of Truth grows within. People can certainly help provide sunlight and water, but the seed and the fruit are within.
See Liber Causae for a good discussion of this dialectic between self and others helping oneself.
IAO131
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@Aum418 said
"The general idea is that the Flower of Truth grows within. People can certainly help provide sunlight and water, but the seed and the fruit are within.
"The sunlight and water metaphor is a good one for teaching. I've found that a teacher can provide two important things (in the context of the Western Mysteries):
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There are areas of the work that a student may either consciously find disagreeable and avoid, or unconsciously find disagreeable. In the later case, it will typically never even occur to the student to address these areas (even if referred to directly in the books they're reading, or brought up directly in conversation). A teacher can direct the student towards exercises that will address these areas, thus ensuring that the student's work is complete and balanced.
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There is a specific application of the alchemical work of projection that the teacher can provide (I say a specific application, though there are a million different methods by which this application may be affected). Here the metaphor of providing sunlight and water for the growing seed applies perfectly.
Liber Causae addresses (briefly) the first point, and gives an example of a far more advanced (though along the same lines) stage of the work of projection than that mentioned above.
Apologies if I'm blathering about something barely on topic. It seems appropriate to the theme of initiation in the current Aeon.
Herr/Fraulein Meow
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"In this Aeon, the central formula is not L.V.X., but N.O.X. Much more than the balance or opposite of L.V.X., the formula of N.O.X. is that of the Mother (ה), while L.V.X. was once that of the Son (ו). The former once opened the Vault of Abiegnus; the latter opens the Gates of the City of the Pyramids."
isn't NOX (the invisible aspect of LVX) the current/reality that streams from beyond kether and pours down the tree being both a very different thing from the formula to open the gates of the city of the pyramids (BAB AL ON)?
"Note the past tense usage in the former case, L.V.X. will no longer open the Vault of the Mountain of Adepts; it now opens the Four Gates to the Palace at the foot of the Mountain. No longer is it the word of the Son Tiphareth, but of the Daughter Malkuth who borders upon the Shells. The formula I.N.R.I. has no relationship to this L.V.X. and is useful primarily to those who have not yet accepted the Law of Thelema."
i may be opening a can of worms... but according to this train of thought we are all in tiphareth! we have ALL attained to the K&C of the HGA!!
i guess tomorrow we are all going to be in the city of the pyramids without even knowing...
but seriously, what he may mean by "accepting the law of thelema" is simply somebody that has discovered his/her true will (tiphareth) or 5=6 in the A.'.A.'. system, but it is kind of silly to assume that we all are at that level.
maybe by the end of the Aeon... -
@miss ruby said
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"In this Aeon, the central formula is not L.V.X., but N.O.X. Much more than the balance or opposite of L.V.X., the formula of N.O.X. is that of the Mother (ה), while L.V.X. was once that of the Son (ו). The former once opened the Vault of Abiegnus; the latter opens the Gates of the City of the Pyramids."isn't NOX (the invisible aspect of LVX) the current/reality that streams from beyond kether and pours down the tree being both a very different thing from the formula to open the gates of the city of the pyramids (BAB AL ON)?
"Note the past tense usage in the former case, L.V.X. will no longer open the Vault of the Mountain of Adepts; it now opens the Four Gates to the Palace at the foot of the Mountain. No longer is it the word of the Son Tiphareth, but of the Daughter Malkuth who borders upon the Shells. The formula I.N.R.I. has no relationship to this L.V.X. and is useful primarily to those who have not yet accepted the Law of Thelema."
i may be opening a can of worms... but according to this train of thought we are all in tiphareth! we have ALL attained to the K&C of the HGA!!
i guess tomorrow we are all going to be in the city of the pyramids without even knowing...but seriously, what he may mean by "accepting the law of thelema" is simply somebody that has discovered his/her true will (tiphareth) or 5=6 in the A.'.A.'. system, but it is kind of silly to assume that we all are at that level.
maybe by the end of the Aeon..."Accepting the law of Thelema usually means accepting "There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt" etc and isnt a claim about attaining one's true will or not.
IAO131
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@Aum418 said
"Accepting the law of Thelema usually means accepting "There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt" etc and isnt a claim about attaining one's true will or not.
IAO131"
Then who is the "thou" that is supposed to will? Why is it not ''Do what I wilt"?
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It's the difference between a self-affirmation and a communal proclamation of ...what would you call it? "co-deity"?
It wouldn't do very well to have you running around greeting people with the phrase "Do what I wilt shall be the whole of the Law."
Sounds kind of narcissistic.
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@he atlas itch said
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@Aum418 said
"Accepting the law of Thelema usually means accepting "There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt" etc and isnt a claim about attaining one's true will or not.IAO131"
Then who is the "thou" that is supposed to will? Why is it not ''Do what I wilt"?"
You can acknowledge there is no law beyond Do what thou wilt before knowing what thou wilt.
IAO131
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I’m glad you said that because, taken at face value, you might end up with notions like a communal proclamation of co-deity (I’m a star, you’re a star, do what you please). One could just as easily say “There is no law” and have the same effect.
I detect you distinguish between “thou wilt” and True Will, but I suggest the “true” is latent within “thou”. No one else can confirm you’re on the true path for yourself except your HGA. That doesn’t mean we don’t have any criteria. What is certain is that Thelema is about increasing one’s individuality and the responsibility that comes with that process. Liber Oz shows the freedom of the individual has boundaries of respect toward others. Individuation develops through an conscious act of sustained will that over time assumes a natural and moral nature.
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I stand by my answer.
And if you won't affirm even the partial truth of the words you put in my mouth and then mocked me for saying, then you're just another pedant who doesn't get that part of the intentional function of these statements is to be scandalously liberating.
Show me the liberating aspect of your interpretation of these words BEFORE a person "knows their True Will." Before a person has had the chance to make a move from where they are, you have them worried about who "thou" is and what "thou" wants from us because, as you seemed determined to beat people up about, "thou" cannot have anything to do with "I."
Isn't the whole point to create a tension between "thou" and "I" in the mind of the aspirant? Isn't solving that seeming discontinuity of experience the whole point of this spiritual path?
You seem so worried that people will "mistinterpret" (or have a different understanding than yourself) that you rush to clap fresh irons on their feet before they get a sense of the kind of freedom that has been proclaimed to them.
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@he atlas itch said
"I’m glad you said that because, taken at face value, you might end up with notions like a communal proclamation of co-deity (I’m a star, you’re a star, do what you please). One could just as easily say “There is no law” and have the same effect.
I detect you distinguish between “thou wilt” and True Will, but I suggest the “true” is latent within “thou”. No one else can confirm you’re on the true path for yourself except your HGA. That doesn’t mean we don’t have any criteria. What is certain is that Thelema is about increasing one’s individuality and the responsibility that comes with that process. Liber Oz shows the freedom of the individual has boundaries of respect toward others. Individuation develops through an conscious act of sustained will that over time assumes a natural and moral nature."
93,
I think we are all doing our will, we are all on perfect courses through heaven as AC says in Liber Aleph, but different people are mroe aware of this than others. Knowing your true will means consciously becoming aware of this perfect course, etc. Nothing is changed but all is trulier understood as AC said. What is true is that with freedom comes responsibility - Do what thou wilt is infinitely free and also infinitely austere.
IAO131
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@Frater_AVV said
"I stand by my answer."
FraterAVV - the post was directed at Aum418, but I‘ll address your points.
No doubt the intent was meant to be scandalously liberating. In Crowley’s time. He saw himself as on par with suffragists, leading England out of the darkness of the Victorian era, and probably laid a few respectable socialites with that opening line. But the world today is different from Crowley’s and our understanding of Thelema evolves as well.
Btw I never said there is no relation between the “thou” and “I”. Yes the path is about uniting these two perspectives, but how anyone understands that depends on their self-awareness. The point is not about creating tension between these two perspectives, although tension and many other things will certainly arise from that discontinuity.
I’m not worried at how others will understand Thelema. Crowley generated enough misunderstandings by himself. But I am puzzled at people's various interpretations and heated discussions on Thelema - e.g. within the concept of politics or utopian society or a social movement or whatever. That seems to miss the whole point.
I hope we can get back to Gunther's book.