Initiation in the Æon of the Child
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@he atlas itch said
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@Aum418 said
"Accepting the law of Thelema usually means accepting "There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt" etc and isnt a claim about attaining one's true will or not.IAO131"
Then who is the "thou" that is supposed to will? Why is it not ''Do what I wilt"?"
You can acknowledge there is no law beyond Do what thou wilt before knowing what thou wilt.
IAO131
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I’m glad you said that because, taken at face value, you might end up with notions like a communal proclamation of co-deity (I’m a star, you’re a star, do what you please). One could just as easily say “There is no law” and have the same effect.
I detect you distinguish between “thou wilt” and True Will, but I suggest the “true” is latent within “thou”. No one else can confirm you’re on the true path for yourself except your HGA. That doesn’t mean we don’t have any criteria. What is certain is that Thelema is about increasing one’s individuality and the responsibility that comes with that process. Liber Oz shows the freedom of the individual has boundaries of respect toward others. Individuation develops through an conscious act of sustained will that over time assumes a natural and moral nature.
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I stand by my answer.
And if you won't affirm even the partial truth of the words you put in my mouth and then mocked me for saying, then you're just another pedant who doesn't get that part of the intentional function of these statements is to be scandalously liberating.
Show me the liberating aspect of your interpretation of these words BEFORE a person "knows their True Will." Before a person has had the chance to make a move from where they are, you have them worried about who "thou" is and what "thou" wants from us because, as you seemed determined to beat people up about, "thou" cannot have anything to do with "I."
Isn't the whole point to create a tension between "thou" and "I" in the mind of the aspirant? Isn't solving that seeming discontinuity of experience the whole point of this spiritual path?
You seem so worried that people will "mistinterpret" (or have a different understanding than yourself) that you rush to clap fresh irons on their feet before they get a sense of the kind of freedom that has been proclaimed to them.
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@he atlas itch said
"I’m glad you said that because, taken at face value, you might end up with notions like a communal proclamation of co-deity (I’m a star, you’re a star, do what you please). One could just as easily say “There is no law” and have the same effect.
I detect you distinguish between “thou wilt” and True Will, but I suggest the “true” is latent within “thou”. No one else can confirm you’re on the true path for yourself except your HGA. That doesn’t mean we don’t have any criteria. What is certain is that Thelema is about increasing one’s individuality and the responsibility that comes with that process. Liber Oz shows the freedom of the individual has boundaries of respect toward others. Individuation develops through an conscious act of sustained will that over time assumes a natural and moral nature."
93,
I think we are all doing our will, we are all on perfect courses through heaven as AC says in Liber Aleph, but different people are mroe aware of this than others. Knowing your true will means consciously becoming aware of this perfect course, etc. Nothing is changed but all is trulier understood as AC said. What is true is that with freedom comes responsibility - Do what thou wilt is infinitely free and also infinitely austere.
IAO131
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@Frater_AVV said
"I stand by my answer."
FraterAVV - the post was directed at Aum418, but I‘ll address your points.
No doubt the intent was meant to be scandalously liberating. In Crowley’s time. He saw himself as on par with suffragists, leading England out of the darkness of the Victorian era, and probably laid a few respectable socialites with that opening line. But the world today is different from Crowley’s and our understanding of Thelema evolves as well.
Btw I never said there is no relation between the “thou” and “I”. Yes the path is about uniting these two perspectives, but how anyone understands that depends on their self-awareness. The point is not about creating tension between these two perspectives, although tension and many other things will certainly arise from that discontinuity.
I’m not worried at how others will understand Thelema. Crowley generated enough misunderstandings by himself. But I am puzzled at people's various interpretations and heated discussions on Thelema - e.g. within the concept of politics or utopian society or a social movement or whatever. That seems to miss the whole point.
I hope we can get back to Gunther's book.
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"Accepting the law of Thelema usually means accepting "There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt" etc and isnt a claim about attaining one's true will or not. "
"accepting" may not be enough. "accepting the rules" on a tennis tournament doesn't make you a tennis player.
the first word in the law is "do"... as in "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law"
so ... in order to do your true will, you have to know it first.
just saying...
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"He who seeks, let him not cease seeking until he finds; and when he finds he will be troubled, and when he is troubled he will be amazed, and he will reign over the All." - The Gospel of Thomas
Hi Frater AVV,
Sounds as if you are troubled. He wasn't attacking YOU, he was disagreeing with what you SAID. He doesn't even know you, nor do I. You are not just your opinions.
I like you and what you say, and many times, the way you say what you feel/think. Remember we are on a board of people who type and probably will never meet IRT. They can't negate you in any way. But you can be kicked off if you make this a personal war.
I'll miss you if you are gone.
In L.V.X.,
chrys333 -
Maybe I missed something but what I said should not be construed as a personal attack.
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I bought this book in pre-release and I think it is an excellent resource for those in the outer order of the A.'.A.'., o=o-4=7. Something I think a lot of reviewers have missed is the attributions of the chapters to the Hebrew alphabet. There is a reason and it is simple, each chapter is a focused look at the path the letter is attributed to and helps to clarify the concepts therein. The claim that this book is good for beginners are similar to the same claims about Magick... kind of but be prepared to do your homework while reading the book. It isn't just a book to read, but a book to study and develop an understanding.
There are some things that stand out as "why even put these in here" such as the pictures of the guy doing various poses. Now I now know why they are there but they aren't explained by any means and I had a good friend in the know explain them to me without detailing their use as it is a teaching of that lineage as far as I know. That is the biggest example I can think of right now as I am reading the book for a third time right now, but going much more slowly and in a studious manner.
As to putting the book into use, consider the A.'.A.'. system itself. It isn't readily apparent to most as they don't have access to some documents like Liber Throa (not Pyramidos) and Liber 120 (not the Order of Thelemites one) and by this I mean the general reader. The book is about the orthodox A.'.A.'. system and essentially signalling the return to the fundamentals of Crowley's system and ideas within that lineage and hierarchy. The entire time they have spent getting set up has been building to this release on some plane I think.
In his comments on INRI/IAO formula and unlocking the Vault, one must look at in terms of the ritual work of the degrees. Liber 0 is a 0=0 paper, the higher grades begin work with Liber 25 and 36, after opening the gates of the Qlippoth and stepping into the Green of Malkuth, represented in Gunther's choice of cover, the Rosycross with the gull green base. Some critics have unjustly criticized Gunther's use of the Rosycross on the cover while missing this important change in the symbol!
What Gunther is trying to express in his statement on INRI and the analysis of the Keyword is that the grade work of the Probationer opens the gates and once one steps beyond the gates the formulae changes based on the grade work! You no longer use the LBRP but the Star Ruby, you no longer use the Hexagram ritual but the Star Sapphire etc. and their formulae are based on NOX as opposed to LVX. Liber 0 is the method and key to breaking away from the Qlippoth, opening the way to Malkuth and the path to Yesod! IT gives you the methods of vibratory formulae, rising on the planes, godform assumption and rituals in which to practice these exercises and the knowledge to verify your experiences. The Neophyte is similar to the Neophyte Adeptus Minor of the Golden Dawn with the Zelator being similar to a Zelator Adeptus Minor, but not really if that makes sense. Something some people don't really understand, to a degree, is that one is not free until a certain point in the work and that is when one becomes a Thelemite and accepts the Law of Thelema wholey, as opposed to just intellectually as most do. This is not a bad thing and is expected and why things like the EGC are necessary. Most are in it for the religious experience, a few for the initiatory experience.
Anyway, an excellent book on the A.'.A.'. system. And I think that to illustrate that this isn't hyperbole by a "fan"... I used to be a... critic is not a strong enough word here... and skeptic is not strong enough as well... let's just say I was a hostile party to the claims of Daniel Gunther until I developed a certain understanding and point of view independently. I used to be a student of a certain Motta student and his comments certainly affected my opinion unjustly, even though I knew better as regards Martin Starr. Now, I believe Gunther is an Adept and an amazing scholar. The book reminded me of what Kenneth Grant was trying to accomplish with Magickal Revival but more successful. I am happy to say I was wrong about Gunther and look forward to his next book. Is this the best & most important book on the New Aeon since Crowley? I don't know about that but it is certainly something special and does deserve a place on every Thelemites shelf with the understanding that it needs to be studied, not simply read!
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@frateruranus said
"I bought this book in pre-release and I think it is an excellent resource for those in the outer order of the A.'.A.'., o=o-4=7. Something I think a lot of reviewers have missed is the attributions of the chapters to the Hebrew alphabet. There is a reason and it is simple, each chapter is a focused look at the path the letter is attributed to and helps to clarify the concepts therein. The claim that this book is good for beginners are similar to the same claims about Magick... kind of but be prepared to do your homework while reading the book. It isn't just a book to read, but a book to study and develop an understanding. "
I agree that a member of the A.'.A.'., especially higher degrees (i.e. already familiar with the work) would get the most benefit from this book.
"What Gunther is trying to express in his statement on INRI and the analysis of the Keyword is that the grade work of the Probationer opens the gates and once one steps beyond the gates the formulae changes based on the grade work! You no longer use the LBRP but the Star Ruby, you no longer use the Hexagram ritual but the Star Sapphire etc. and their formulae are based on NOX as opposed to LVX./"
The way I read it is more like LVX is no longer valid AT ALL, i.e. not at any grade. INRI is not valid anymore, NOX is valid.
"Now, I believe Gunther is an Adept and an amazing scholar. The book reminded me of what Kenneth Grant was trying to accomplish with magical Revival but more successful."
No idea what Grant was trying to do but GUnther's book is much more straightforward and practical, which isnt saying much really.
" I am happy to say I was wrong about Gunther and look forward to his next book. Is this the best & most important book on the New Aeon since Crowley? I don't know about that but it is certainly something special and does deserve a place on every Thelemites shelf with the understanding that it needs to be studied, not simply read!"
Nice little review.
IAO131
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In the Magickal Revival Grant was trying to trace and outline the magick system that Crowley had received/elucidated. The problem is that he brought in streams of Spare, Fortune & Achad. It is a valuable book to be certain but it doesn't really cover the system of Crowley but instead reveals the system that worked for Grant and used by the Typhonian Order.
As to LVX no longer being valid, I think you are misreading what Gunther said. He said the formula no longer opens the vault and based on his teaching that Abiegnus is the same as the City of Pyramids, the formula of ABiegnus is now NOX, not LVX. I don't recall anywhere that he says LVX is invalid, just that it is no longer the key to the Vault. I can see his point but if you view the ToL as the Mountain as opposed to just the post Abyss initiations then LVX does indeed still open the Vault as the gateway into the mountain with the Abyss being like the confrontation with the Balrog in LOTR. LOL
I will beg to differ on your opinion of the book's suitability, but like I said it is a book to be studied. Your comment would apply just as equally to Book 4 in my own opinion. The thing is, these are books that aren't meant to be read and completely understood. If you want that read DuQuette or any of the other authors whose work is essentially one read and digested, no disrespect intended. This book can give one a general overview of the A.'.A.'. OUTER system, what use would it be to members of higher grades when it is packed with advice for the student of those grades and arranged according to the paths on the tree? Not all books are one sitting books or work books and this book shouldn't be and I don't want to see one from Gunther either. It doesn't help the system and it doesn't advance our understanding of the system. I am sure if Gunther wrote yet another "this is how to do magick" book it would be a hot seller, but how many do we need? With such pre-eminently useable materials like Modern Magick, Bardon, Frater UD's High Magick or the Cicero's Self Initiation book do we really need another? We don't need another Abrahadabra or NEw Aeon Magick. DuQuette is doing a fine job with his books, as are others but I'd like to see more material like what Gunther has produced. I'd love to now see something like this from Breeze or Starr!
Thanks for the comment on my review. It is appreciated.
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@frateruranus said
"In the magical Revival Grant was trying to trace and outline the magick system that Crowley had received/elucidated. The problem is that he brought in streams of Spare, Fortune & Achad. It is a valuable book to be certain but it doesn't really cover the system of Crowley but instead reveals the system that worked for Grant and used by the Typhonian Order.
As to LVX no longer being valid, I think you are misreading what Gunther said. He said the formula no longer opens the vault and based on his teaching that Abiegnus is the same as the City of Pyramids, the formula of ABiegnus is now NOX, not LVX. I don't recall anywhere that he says LVX is invalid, just that it is no longer the key to the Vault. I can see his point but if you view the ToL as the Mountain as opposed to just the post Abyss initiations then LVX does indeed still open the Vault as the gateway into the mountain with the Abyss being like the confrontation with the Balrog in LOTR. LOL
I will beg to differ on your opinion of the book's suitability, but like I said it is a book to be studied. Your comment would apply just as equally to Book 4 in my own opinion. The thing is, these are books that aren't meant to be read and completely understood. If you want that read DuQuette or any of the other authors whose work is essentially one read and digested, no disrespect intended. This book can give one a general overview of the A.'.A.'. OUTER system, what use would it be to members of higher grades when it is packed with advice for the student of those grades and arranged according to the paths on the tree? Not all books are one sitting books or work books and this book shouldn't be and I don't want to see one from Gunther either. It doesn't help the system and it doesn't advance our understanding of the system. I am sure if Gunther wrote yet another "this is how to do magick" book it would be a hot seller, but how many do we need? With such pre-eminently useable materials like Modern Magick, Bardon, Frater UD's High Magick or the Cicero's Self Initiation book do we really need another? We don't need another Abrahadabra or NEw Aeon Magick. DuQuette is doing a fine job with his books, as are others but I'd like to see more material like what Gunther has produced. I'd love to now see something like this from Breeze or Starr!
Thanks for the comment on my review. It is appreciated.
""As we have observed, one of the chief characteristics of the Aeon of Osiris was a preference for the symbols of light. The formula of L.V.X. through which the adepts expressed their understanding of the facts of nature andd the means of overcoming them, although efficacious, represents an incomplete perception of the universe. Our representation of the Godhead as solar no longer requires the antagonism of light and night as a basic premise... In this Aeon, the central formula is not L.V.X., but N.O.X." (p.34-35)
I guess I find the funny part is that he says "Our representation of the Godhead as solar no longer requires the antagonism of light and night as a basic premise..." and then proceeds to say the formula is LVX but not NOX...
I think advanced books like Gunther are good but I take issue with certain things he says like the above along with his presentation of certain material. I don't know - I didnt read anything that I thought was very new or illuminating. Yes, he fleshed out the symbolism with historical, masonic, and Christian references but thats all Old - I thought it was supposed to be about the New... At a lot of times it seems to simply be elucidating the intricacies of certain symbols and not much more.
IAO131
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Your quote doesn't say that LVX is no longer valid, nor does it imply any sort of antagonism. Nothing like that at all. I think you are just reading into it unconsciously.
As far as "old" what he is doing is explaining that Thelema doesn't REPLACE all the symbols, but that some have different meanings and by addressing these in relation to the A.'.A.'. system he shows how they have changed. I think this is important as Crowley was never really clear on these things and many Thelemites think a lot of these things are black magick, old aeon or what have you when in fact, a lot of it is still very much an important element of the work.
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@frateruranus said
"Your quote doesn't say that LVX is no longer valid, nor does it imply any sort of antagonism. Nothing like that at all. I think you are just reading into it unconsciously. "
I suppose my language was a bit strong but throughout the book he says the formula is no longer LVX but NOX. You didnt address the fact that he says we should get beyond LVX/NOX dualisms then says 'its NOX but not LVX now'...
"As far as "old" what he is doing is explaining that Thelema doesn't REPLACE all the symbols, but that some have different meanings and by addressing these in relation to the A.'.A.'. system he shows how they have changed. "
My point is that the symbolism hasnt changed in the least for 80% of the things he explains. He talks abotu superseding and abrogating but it seems like most are neither - its just keeping the old.
"I think this is important as Crowley was never really clear on these things and many Thelemites think a lot of these things are black magick, old aeon or what have you when in fact, a lot of it is still very much an important element of the work."
Yet he says death is not viewed as the supreme attainment which it certainly is in Holy BOoks and in Crowleys writings. He says that LVX is not central to this Aeon but it most certainly is. He even goes so far as to claim that Determinism is antithetical to Thelema even though AC clearly espouses determinism in The Law is For All and Liber Aleph as a fulfillment of the law. I dont think many view it as black magick - on the contrary, I think too many Thelemites are overly obsessed by old Masonic, Golden Dawn, and other Qabalistic intricacies that have little or marginal worth to the New Aeon. I also didnt think Gunther presented anything really new abotu the ideas of initiation besides that he thinks NOX is central now and not LVX...
IAO131
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@Jim Eshelman said
"I'd been meaning to post a note on this book, and hadn't gotten around to it. I've had it sitting around for several weeks, but haven't started reading it."
So Jim, did you ever get around to reading Gunther's book Initiation in the Aeon of the Child and do you have any thoughts?
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@gmugmble said
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@Jim Eshelman said
"I'd been meaning to post a note on this book, and hadn't gotten around to it. I've had it sitting around for several weeks, but haven't started reading it."So Jim, did you ever get around to reading Gunther's book Initiation in the Aeon of the Child and do you have any thoughts?"
Actually, no, not yet. (I hit a patch of doing three people's jobs at work for the last five months - just recovering from that with some new hiring this week and diving right into a huge project through February.)
Additionally, I lost energy on it because person after person told me they'd felt it wasn't worth their time to read it. So, my hopes of gaining something intrinsic for myself are (rightly or wrongly) low right now, and I have it transplanted to the "you need to read it as a matter of duty - just because" pile.