IOT
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Judaic banking system? The banking system was developed by the Knights Templar and just because some Jews own some banks by no means makes the system Judaic! How is capitalism Protestant?
You seem to want Thelema to be this thing about Kingly men in one post, espousing the striking of the downtrodden, the outcast etc and here you want Thelema to be something people come to for comfort in a time of desperation! That won't save the world, Thelema is not a Messianic religion. It is a religion about saving yourself, not finding comfort in the confines of a religion.
It won't be some propaganda film, touting Crowley as some sort of world saviour etc. that brings the New Aeon. It will be the rise of Kings & heroes who are also Thelemites, it will be through the way that our communities carry themselves in this age. Your post is filled with fear & uncertainty. I am sure that carries over into your daily life. What will help people to come to Thelema is not touting conspiracy theories, propaganda films or similar falsehoods. It is through success & being the embodiment of success, looking the part, playing the part & being the part. Essentially, if you want to be a Rock Star, start acting like one!
I watched the same videos as a child in school as you did and that isn't the same thing as watching "Birth of a Nation" or "Triumph of the Will". Both hid problems far deeper in the rotten core of those apples. They led to misconceptions. People no longer trust such things, at least not the people that Thelema would attract.
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the banking system I refer to as Judaic was half serious half satire of conspiracy theory. The half serious part is that Christianity totally abrogates usury, where as Judaism (and Islam as per the knights Templar) allows for limited usury. This is how Jews came to rise up in the banking system in the first place. Modern banking is usury at its finest.
As for how is Capitalism protestant its Calvinist to be specific, I will refer you to Max Webber.
Your do not seem to see what I mean. It is the Christian notion of Equality before God that was what Nietzsche called slave mentality. It was a trick so that the repressed Jews could feel equal to the Romans and even to claim the Emperor was equal to the common peasant, as before God all are equal.
When this Idea spread the people lost faith in their ruling class, and rebelled, which turned the whole order of society upside down. The Transcendent virtues of the Kings, were replaced by the materialist desires and interests of the common serfs. We can see this reversal is Hegel's Master -Slave Dialectic where the the serf class begins to industrialize into the market class which replaces the noble class virtues with free-market materialism. Marx takes over from here where the worker class overturns the market class, in the final degeneration into communism, or Rule by the serf class, rather than the merchants market system, the warriors Honor, the Priests piety value, nor the Kings true virtues handed down from the Transcendent, (the sanctuary behind the cloud).
Now it is my contention that, Therion as a prophet is a prophet in the sense spoken of in the cloud upon the sanctuary. That is, every religion or church, actually every nation or ethnicity is related to the transcendent via a set of beliefs and rituals than express the ineffable mysteries to the common people. Now each set of rituals is appropriate to a particular people, these rituals make up that peoples traditions, including its Gods or in some cases ancestors. Their is a general formula which all belief systems and traditions adhere to that connects them the transcendent.
However over time, the traditions tend to break down, as technology changes, people with different beliefs interact, things are re-interpreted or corrupted for political gain etc. The falling from transcendent to material values that I have shown above happens. (One key sign of this is political correctness, liberalism, modernism in general, the support of weakness and disdain for raw expression of power or self advancement)
When this happens, A prophet or Prophets, are sent by the inner sanctuary the (A.'.A.'.) to re-establish a new general formula that will re-establish the KINGS of the Earth, and re-set the process of degeneration. Such than whole new people or regenerated old age people will once again receive training in the True virtues, The Prophet(s) shall train Priests and the Priests shall administer the virtues to the peoples. And re-establish a WORLD ORDER, in place of the degeneracy and nihilism left in the wake of Christianity.
The Magus (Crowley) established the new formula. The Magisters shall Prepare the Temple (the minds of the people and the world itself) and the Adeptus, who is known as a "leader of a school of thought" shall administer the rituals to the people. Shall serve as the priests spoken of in Cloud upon the Sanctuary.
If this New law is not rightly established, then Yes their is much to fear, as the degeneration of humanity may never stop until we destroy ourselves.
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I can agree with your last post and I am glad your were "half-jokin" about the conspiracy theory stuff. I am not saying though that all should be treated as equals but should be treated with respect, as the sleeping gods that they are unless they prove themselves to be an enemy. Even a slave deserves to be respected! It is those who pretend to be something they aren't that don't deserve our respect.
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One does not treat a tractor with cruelty nor does one pamper it and put it on display, feeling it is cruel or shows a lack of compassion to Use a tractor and get it dirty.
The purpose of a tractor is to get dirty, to be warn into the ground by its owner, and in the process of wearing it out, the owner uses the tractor as a TOOL to achieve his own WILL. The tractors WILL is to be used and warn out, it has no WILL that is not the owners WILL.
The same is True with Slaves, their purpose is to serve and thus it is proper that they be USED up as fodder to ones own WILL, a tool run into the ground and used for a purpose that meets its talents. Be they mental or physical skills.
I would go so far as to say ideally with Thelema one self is King and all other humans, animals, objects, beliefs, etc are merely tools to be used, worn out, and cast aside, with no value in themselves but only as means to ones ends.
We see this also with the Buddha, "Once you reach the other bank, discard the raft", and to the Tao Teh Ching "the Tao treats all things like straw dogs, and thus the sage treats all things like straw dogs", Here a straw dog means a sacrifice that is made in place of a real animal, it is something easily discarded and used up as it is used. This resembles closely the attitude of Max Stirner when he begins his essay by quoting Goethe ""Ich hab' Mein' Sach' auf Nichts gestellt" (I have set my affairs upon nothing). and also "You are nothing but—my food, even as I am fed upon and turned to use by you”
What then does Crowely say about all of this Egoism, which the liberal minded and new age hippies have declared the enemy of Man?
From magick without tears ch. XLVI
"Selfishness? .... in a way the whole structure of the ethics of Thelema is founded upon it" "Selflessness,""the great characteristic of the Master of the Temple, the very quintessence of his attainment, is not its contradictory, or even its contrary; it is perfectly compatible (nay, shall we say friendly?) with it."
"This is the central doctrine of Thelema in this matter. What are we to understand by it? That this imbecile and nauseating cult of weakness— democracy some call it—is utterly false and vile."To further quote would waste space. But I think I have show due evidence that the mystical schools are not about "sweetness and light" and far less about universal human brotherhoods where we all hold hands and sing kumbaya. Humanity is a brotherhood and as brothers we fight, see Cain and Able on the true nature of brotherhood, for further study look into the childhood of Joseph.
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Nobody said anything about sweetness & light & your tractor example is a fallacious arguement because a tractor isn't self-aware. Treating people as tools to be cast aside when done with, eventually you run out of tools. There is nothing liberal minded or against the quotes you give of Crowley in being respectful to people. Your example is not egoism as Crowley expressed it either, but Egotism. You seem to be picking quotes that suit your particular political agenda and ignoring the rest. If you are playing Devil's Advocate, fine, all's fair but if you are picking & choosing you are little more than something akin to a CHristian Fundamentalist. Even Marcelo Motta didn't advocate your extremes but taught to treat everyone you meet as if they were a god sleeping, for indeed they are a god sleeping! That doesn't mean equal or same or homogenized. Fuck man, Motta was as far right as a Thelemite can get!
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Treat others as according to their nature. It is the nature of most to serve, and to be used, It is what they truly WILL, to be put to good use and to wear themselves out in service to a higher ideal and often a higher personality. (but it has to be their own natural talents and interest, their own WILL not an alien cause forced upon them. ie. it is my WILL to serve the king but for my reasons not his) People speak of liberty and freedom, but in their hearts truly desire to sublimate to a higher power. This is not a contradiction of their WILL but a fulfillment of it. Just as ever cell in your body does not do just whatever, but rather works towards a higher purpose. When it does random things it becomes a cancer and kills the body which the cells need to survive.
If someone's WILL guides him to the natural social niche as a tailor for example, Then the fulfillment of his WILL to mend clothes depends upon his service to the demands of his clients. Likewise with any social role, ones own WILL can not be taken out of the context of the General social environment and the WILL of others.
Thus a part of the WILL to be a Tailor, is the WILL to accept and meet the demands of your patrons, no matter how difficult those demands are, it is by meeting difficult demands and impossible patrons than you improve yourself and Grow as a tailor. Since the tailor benefits from "irrationally harsh" demands, then it is proper that as a patron of the Tailor you not pull any punches, not make things easy on him, as that is unfair first to you because you accept lesser work. It is also unfair to the Tailor because he is not met with proper challenges to sharpen his skills.The same goes with all meetings between oneself and others. This is what it means to "strike low and hard". It is disrespectful to "patronize" others by assuming they are not constitutionally up to the challenge of meeting your highest demands and by lowering your demands its not fair to you who has to deal with inferior quality or handicap yourself rather than expressing your WILL at full volume.
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And how does that preclude not being respectful and treating people decently? You keep giving excuses but not justifications and dodging the idea of respecting people.
Nobody has said anything about patronizing people. Respect is not being patronizing to people. Where do you get this conclusion? Do you want everyone to treat you like a tool and toss you aside once they get what they want? It is more patronizing to use someone as a tool than to have a general respectful attitude! I am not going to simply be nice to someone because I need a ride to work and then have nothing more to do with them because they served my purposes. If I meet someone I am going to be respectful and continue to be respectful until they have betrayed me. Don't tell me what "Strike hard & low" means because you are using it to justify a behaviour that leads to Da'ath as opposed to Binah! The Book of the Law does not justify being rude to the slaves that serve, it doesn't justify disrespectful to the slaves that serve. The very verses you use to justify disrespectful behaviour in fact apply to the traitors & the soldiers who dare not fight but play. It is for those who talk a big game & fail to come up to bat consistently, it is for those who betray your trust. The Slaves that serve are those who have not stepped out of the Old Aeon & into the New Aeon. They are not outcast, they are not even necessarily unfit. They simply haven't awakened to the Law & if you give it to them & they choose not to abide in this bliss then that is THEIR CHOICE, their WILL & should be respected for having made that choice even if you feel they have chosen the life of slavery. You do not understand the true place of the Kingly man because the Kingly man is the servant & SLAVE of the beauteous one & a servant & slave to those over whom he rules!
If they choose to abide in the Law of Thelema & they fall to the old Aeon & choose to be enslaved by the old ways, to turn their backs on the A.'. A.'. etc or they fail consistently to keep their Oaths & promises to not just the A.'.A.'. but also to you then strike hard & low and to hell with them. The Ordeals will sort them out. If you are not their initiator then it is not your place to test them but for the universal forces to sort them out.
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What you have put forth here is exactly the slave mentality that Nietzsche put forth. Which is so cleary the bases of Christianity.
I said to not patronize people, That is to treat them as what they are, and to never be soft on anyone. "Strike low and Hard" Refers to ANYONE and EVERYONE you happen to meet. It means to be demanding and uncompromising in your every interaction with other people to assume they are able to meet your high standards and if they can't too hell with them they are too weak an useless to as a means to your WILL. It is Patronizing to assume anyone is too weak to meet your demands from the start and treat them with care not to offend them or hurt their pride etc, on the fear they may be Kings in disguise. This is patronizing people out of fear they may secretly have some kind of authority or respect due no them as a king. Rather one is called to treat EVERYONE as able to meet our harshest demands, and that is what it means to Respect them.
To tread a servant with respect means to assign him the hardest tasks, assign to him what you do not trust the another servants to be able to accomplish. If you pamper your servants and they become weak and lazy and not good tools for your WILL.
Further not just other people EVERYTHING is a tool of your WILL, the whole phenomenal world is an Expression of your WILL, its your own Mind made flesh, the Khabs extended. Everyone exits in their own universe that is an extension of their own mind and thus ones own WILL is the sole authority over ones whole world.
However each star in unique and the light blends between worlds and one Stars WILLs to play a servant role another a leader role, and its no a matter of what one Choose or wants to do, it is a manifestation of ones inner most being made flesh.
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I guess we are just going to have to disagree. Nietzsche is not Thelema to me and I don't see how I was describing "slave mentality" but hey, you betcha, sure, wink wink & nudge nudge. Thank you great & powerful wizard for showing me the light & how I am wrong in treating people with a sense of decorum & not using them. Ciao.
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Let me quote again from Magick without tears, no the white school.
Adepts of the White School regard their brethren of the Black very much as the aristocratic English Sahib (of the days when England was a nation) regarded the benighted Hindu. Nietzsche expresses the philosophy of this School to that extent with considerable accuracy and vigour. The man who denounces life merely defines himself as the man who is unequal to it. The brave man rejoices in giving and taking hard knocks, and the brave man is joyous. The Scandinavian idea of Valhalla may be primitive,but it is manly. A heaven of popular concert, like the Christian; of unconscious repose, like the Buddhist; or even of sensual enjoyment, like
the Moslem, excites his nausea and contempt. He understands that the only joy worth while is the joy of continual victory, and victory itself would become as tame as croquet if it were not spiced by equally continual defeat"So lets compare with the black school which is based on the notion that this constant fighting this constant defeat in sorrow and that even a victor in some one else's defeat, and thus victory is not joy but the sorrow of empathy felt for the defeated. All existence then is sorrow for this black school, the only hope then is to lessen the brunt of sorrow. This means we must soften our knocks and be on constant alert than we might upset or offend some one, and thus bring suffering into the world, we must at all cost avoid hashing anyones mellow or killing anyone buzz. Thus the black school wants to make everyone equal by default to prevent conflicts and thus eliminate both victories and defeats. Ultimately aiming towards the ideal of total annihilation of existence, it is an anti-life school of magick.
Thelema is White school, where as Christianity, liberalism, modern and post-modernism, democracy, humanism, and all related isms are Black school philosophies of anti-life.
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@Froclown said
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Thelema is White school, where as Christianity, liberalism, modern and post-modernism, democracy, humanism, and all related isms are Black school philosophies of anti-life."
wHeRE dOeS DuAL-**IsM **cOmE iN, iN tHiS sEqUenCe?
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Dualism is the black school, the suffering with the body in the world of physical matter.
To transcend dualism in the 0=2 means to be aware of the parts but to root your awareness in the whole, the nothing that is beyond the interplay of the part. Dualism is of the "shadows which pass and are gone" and Transcendence is "That which remains". Willed action ie acts of love = Ra-Hoor-Nuit and each act of WILL is rewarded with transcendence, ABRAHADABRA. 5=6 rose and cross united in Love. A glimpse beyond the illusion of duality, which is the teleos of the White school. Where as the Black school is not Love driven it is fear driven, it avoids unity between opposites, it hinders transcendence, it withdraws from life because life is hard, risky, and requires positive effort, and it means putting self first even harming others to promote self. The Typical black school initiate has such an inferiority complex he does not want to promote his own interest feeling they are inferior and he is not worth as much as others. That if he upsets others or the the world or has any impact on anything, it is an evil or inferior impact that deserves punishment. This is the feeling of sinfulness, it is a deep sense of guilt that one is not even worthy to exist in the first place, which in the reason for Christians constant giving thanks and pleading for forgiveness.
An the contrary the white school believes one has every right to exist and to take ones fill and Will of life and love when and where one WILLS and no God has any right to deny one anything. That their in no right and wrong, the only SIN in holding back what one WILLs to do out of Fear and Guilt. The white school says, the wold is my oyster, or as Crowley put it "I never grew out of the belief that the wold exists for me to suck on". Its a private play space that exists an an arena in which to express my WILL as I see fit, and everytihng and everyone in it is a means to my enjoyment.
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it is a dualism, ant certainly the Ipssissimus will make no distinction between black and white schools, however the Ipssissimus is totally outside of manifest existence, as such one has no dualities to attract or to repulse from one another. But so long as one exists in a state manifest in duality, ie so long as one IS a discrete self one has a choice no make, accept and love life and existence as it is, or reject life in favor of another world a lie word, a heaven.
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It isn't actually that I disagree with you Froclown, it is different approaches. I don't agree with your approach to these ideas. In an ideal world, sure. Just like in the discussion of a society where OTO is the authority for Thelemites, it is an impractical approach when you look at the society we live in & the necessities of life in general. For example, in the work place, you have someone you can only think of as a slave, even worse, useless. You can't treat them like a tool or slave. You have to be respectful in the work place in order to maintain the work place environment. People in a job or similar situation where they are hierarchially your superior, how do you treat them even if they prove to be a slave? If they hold your job's future, how do you treat them? Similar situations abound. Anyway, last post on the topic from me. Practicality always outweighs Ideally, even Crowley saw that in spite of what he wrote.
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No, what you call being respectful is being politically correct and liberal, that is treating others like they are delicate little flowers who need to be coddled and complimented all the time and if they fuck up, you can't even yell at them or call them incompetent or you risk being sued for being insensitive.
Yes it is the "reality" of this horrid situation than the hippies have ruined the world in general, the US, Canada and western Europe especially. But going with the flow and accepting these preposterous rules, is not Thelema. "Ye are against the people"
I never said to not be respectful, what I said is that what is respectful is to treat others the way a warrior meets another warrior, with the belief that the other is at least as powerful, competent and skilled as one self, not fragile as if need of you to treat them delicately and be sensitive to their troubles. You have your own trouble and they are your own and no one else's business if you are strong and WILLFUL, your private problems are obstacles you meet and conquer on your own, and you REFUSE all charity or pity. If you see others as equally strong, then you do not care to coddle their weakness, you do not offer charity nor pity, instead you say you deal with your own SHIT and I'll deal with mine. Im not here to wipe your nose or kiss your boo boos, Im not your mother. If you can't cut it go cry to you mother, but don't expect any sympathy from me!
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Urmmm, it isn't political correctness, trust me, I am anything but politically correct and call it like I see it. Political Correctness is saying "african american" as opposed to "black" or "intercourse" as opposed to "sex" etc. It is trying to maintain a neutral or inoffensive tone. Being respectful to me is the equivalent of trying to get along for the sake of avoiding unnecessary drama. You piss me off you know. I don't like you, you know. I can be that way and still maintain a civility of character that lets people know I am not an asshole or prick.
As to liberal... I always say there is a time & place for BOTH sides of the political spectrum. I support the idea of socialized medicine but disagree with bail outs, which were initiated by the Bush administration. I believe in a flat tax rate no matter your income & the elimination of the income tax or its conversion to a health care tax. I believe in a welfare system to an extent because someday I may find myself in a position to require it and therefore I pay into it and consider it a sort of savings for an emergency like if I get crippled in an accident. I also at the same time want a complete reform of the system so that it isn't a way to support generations upon generations so that people who haven't paid into it can not benefit from it unless they are crippled or dealing with a debilitating situation such as cancer etc. I want to see the elimination of the federal reserve. I want to see the end of the Patriot Act. I want "under god" to be permanently stricken from the Pledge of Allegiance. I want the myth of the USA being a Christian nation to be squelched. Essentially I figure if I pay taxes I should be getting tangible benefits outside of government officials fat wallets & military support, but I want limited government involvement in my personal life. So no, it isn't liberal, its moderate.
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@Froclown said
"Your do not seem to see what I mean. It is the Christian notion of Equality before God that was what Nietzsche called slave mentality. It was a trick so that the repressed Jews could feel equal to the Romans and even to claim the Emperor was equal to the common peasant, as before God all are equal. "
@Froclown said
"I never said to not be respectful, what I said is that what is respectful is to treat others the way a warrior meets another warrior, **with the belief that the other is at least as powerful, competent and skilled as one self, **not fragile as if need of you to treat them delicately and be sensitive to their troubles. You have your own trouble and they are your own and no one else's business if you are strong and WILLFUL, your private problems are obstacles you meet and conquer on your own, and you REFUSE all charity or pity. If you see others as equally strong, then you do not care to coddle their weakness, you do not offer charity nor pity, instead you say you deal with your own shit and I'll deal with mine. "
So, are we to believe we are the Emperor's equals or not?
Is Equality an ideal to base action on or not?
Under your philosophy, why should you *treat me *as an equal if I am not?
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The Idea is to see others as equally capable and able to meet hard tests of valour.
Not to say everone is of equal worth innately and without test.
It is to constantly challenge your own and others limits, not to say everyone is the same and equal and so we must be soft on everyone.
Yes we treat others as equally capable, no we do not treat others as equal in the sense of lowest common denomenator.
"Make ye no differnce..."
"Whosever availeth is this shall be chief of all"The king is not to be patronized and trated as infallible, rather instead the higher ones rank the harder the tests, the more one has to Prove.
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@Froclown said
"The Idea is to see others as equally capable and able to meet hard tests of valour.
Not to say everone is of equal worth innately and without test.
"If others are to be automatically seen and treated as "equally capable and able to meet hard tests of valour" by the very nature of their existance as humans, then why are they not of "equal worth innately"?
You "treat them as equals" based on some idea. What is that idea? How is a complete stranger to be immediately understood as your equal if that equality is not innate?
innate - adj. Possessed at birth; inborn. Possessed as an essential characteristic; inherent.
Define worth. Under your system, who gets to define worth? Worth what? To what? To whom? By whose standards?
This too is wisdom:
""The supreme good is like water,
which nourishes all things without trying to.
It is content with the low places that people disdain.
Thus it is like the Tao.In dwelling, live close to the ground.
In thinking, keep to the simple.
In conflict, be fair and generous.
In governing, don't try to control.
In work, do what you enjoy.
In family life, be completely present.When you are content to be simply yourself
and don't compare or compete,
everybody will respect you."-- Tao Te Ching, Chp 8"