Full Lotus Posture
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Jim hit the nail on the head.
I used to have the same problem until I went for a yoga class with a fellow Thelemite who spent a year in an ashram. He introduced me to the "yoga cushion" which is much harder than the average pillow or cushion, usually filled with buckweat or Kapok so that it props the buttocks up several inches off the floor. (but it's still wonderfully comfortable)
Look here to get an idea. I'm sure you could make one or improvise with some existing cushions and some buckwheat or something, or jsut buy one if you can find the right shop. The one I have which I would recommend is crescent shaped but tapers towards the points of the crescent so as to allow for a gradual gradient from the buttocks to the feet - not unlike the "cosmic meditation cushion on the site below":
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Thought I'd inquire: I was told by a chiropractor that most people -myself included- have a slight degree of scoliosis; apparently a "perfect" spine is rare indeed. Looking at yoga books, I often see the swami-types with less-than-impressive straightness of the back, so I'm hoping this is not a hindrance to meditation success, setting one back a lifetime or two.
I ask this in the thread because I'm paranoid that my back itself is to blame, rather than posture/experience level, etc.
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Obviously, your back should not be stick straight. I think that if you're attempting to eliminate the natural curves in your back by sitting up as straight as possible, you may be creating unnecessary strain. When I think of proper posture, I think of "good structure" instead of "straightness". Good structure means you're upright with as little muscular usage as possible. Think of your back's posture when you're casually walking down the street, or standing in a relaxed manner, with your head up and your eyes looking forward.
I think it's understandable that you might be having strange pains when beginning asana postures. Our culture's ergonomics in relation to the back are fucking horrible. I can't remember the numbers, but some ridiculously massive percentage (80%??) of people in North America experience chronic back pain. You probably have over and underdeveloped back muscles in certain areas due to shitty sitting habits and so on.
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i appreciate everyones insight, i guess i better find the right chair and cushion to sit on, also i have one last question, in asana AC saise to tense all of your muscles, like if you were about to pounce in suprise!, do i just kinda bring about that feeling or is there a certain way to do it? ive tried tensing all my muscles at once, i dont think its literally possible lol, but i may be wrong
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@Alias55A said
"i appreciate everyones insight, i guess i better find the right chair and cushion to sit on, also i have one last question, in asana AC saise to tense all of your muscles, like if you were about to pounce in suprise!, do i just kinda bring about that feeling or is there a certain way to do it? ive tried tensing all my muscles at once, i dont think its literally possible lol, but i may be wrong"
He later clarified that "braced" was a better word. It's not like you're doing whole-body isometrics.
I understand his difficulty in finding the right word. I really didn't understand what he meant until I hit the automatic rigidity stage. I'm not sure I could improve on Crowley's stumbling with language. The main idea is that the body relaxes into being firmly held against moving.
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"He later clarified that "braced" was a better word"
I do remember reading that now
"The main idea is that the body relaxes into being firmly held against moving."
Ya the only thing i can think of is like sometimes when i want to suprise and jump out at someone, ile get imo like a good stable posture for lashing out at a good speed, or mabye like in martial arts, how they teach you to hold good stances so you cant be pushed over, like the horse stance for instance, but i dont think it creates such a feeling as pouncing or bracing wich i think would be similar.
but what do you think jim? is it more like the feeling before prancing where your muscles are relaxed but tense with that antisipation pushing forward?
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Most common error in asana is that the pelvis area is not moved down i.e. is not streched enough to be always down. That's why someone invented to put a pillow and sit on it. My yoga teacher told me not to use a pillow because if you do and it's comfy you will get the manipura excited and that blocks energy flow. It is easy to reason that if you use a pillow you don't stretch the pelvis region and that leaves you doing asana badly. I believe that if the pelvis region is fixed there should be no problem sitting without a pillow.
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I am still curious as to the consensus here about the importance of correct posture, positions, straightness of the spine and etc. Zazen instruction seems to be particularly nitpicky about all of this, sometimes to the point of saying that "to take the correct posture is itself zazen" and so on.
It seems that the practice of motionlessness is geared entirely to obtain "body off", and if you can do that then it doesn't much matter whether you are in full lotus, or in a recliner or in a flotation tank when it happens. My experience has been that trying to take the "correct" position was frustrating and unfruitful, but settling into an obviously "incorrect" position that was both stable and comfortable immediately started to produce results. Am I missing something here?
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93
In meditation correct posture and straightness of the spine is very important. Yes, after generations of sitting in chairs instead of cross-legged on the floor like our eastern brethren, our bodies are not geared to be comfortable in this position. Yes, when attempting to straighten the spine it can be very frustrating and there is certainly a justification that occurs in beginning of "well I felt I was getting much deeper in my meditation when i was just seated comfortably, even though I was slightly slouched over. I'm not even focusing on my breath anymore now that I'm trying to straighten my spine so is this effort really beneficial to my meditation?" and so on. However, when you do train your body to sit with back completely straight, a certain change occurs within. You can physically feel things line up from your hips to your head, the path between muladhara and sarashara being aligned and the energy somewhat unshackled and free. There is an 'aha' moment that occurs where you can physically feel why a straight spine is necessary. As you said 'to take correct posture is itself zazen' and I would agree because it is enough to throw you in a trance state.
Here's a tip: stand up against a wall to judge how straight your back is. What you will notice is that there is a gap between your lower back and the wall. If you suck your stomach in and up that gap will disappear and your spine will become perfectly straight. Now do this while seated in lotus posture. What you will find is the precarious and somewhat shaky foundation upon which you sit becomes strong and unmovable, and you find yourself sitting much taller than before.
I'm not claiming that this is easy.
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I've been taking Zazen classes in our local Zen center for about a year and a half. It's not that everyone there can do the full lotus posture. Some people use a kind of a meditation stool as their aid. Some do half lotus. Some sit in a posture similar to the Dragon asana. However, many think that if you can do the full lotus, then it's one of the most stable and best postures. I can do the full lotus and it has come to the point where my body doesn't tire at all even if I sit longer periods.
And yes, I bought bought a rigid zafu cushion in the Zen center that I sit on in my lotus posture.
About Crowley's mention of the body getting rigid and even jumping around, I haven't experienced that with zazen and I don't see other people jumping around either. I'm not sure, but it could be that it's because of somewhat different emphasis on what you do with your mind. For instance, in Zazen you often try to get in a very relaxed yet alert state of mind, mind held at the bottom of the belly ("hara"), and not to force the mind or body overtly. Perhaps more rigid practices, such as forcibly concentring on one object, can bring more of the stiffness or even jumping around? I'm not sure, but if you're trying to do Zazen, you're not usually supposed to try to get your body very rigid.
If you have problems such as strains on your body, perhaps you could try stretching, some yoga or whatever. But go slowly about it and don't try to strain too much, otherwise you could do some serious damage to your body. I heard of one guy who got quite serious problems with his knees apparently from trying too hard with the full lotus.
Edit: I just stumbled to this:
"Before I go on, I would like to give a caution. The instructions I will be giving can be followed to two extremes. One extreme is to not follow the instruction enough, to be too lax which leads to sloppiness, dullness, drowsiness, or sleepiness. The other extreme is placing too much effort into your posture which will produce tension or a rigid body and mind.
Two characteristics of zazen are being alert yet relaxed. This is an intentional activity and there should be some effort or energy in zazen, but not too much effort. If there is too much effort, again, you will become tense, and your zazen practice can become a strain. While sitting, you should be relaxed but awake. If you become too relaxed, your mind will wander in its usual way or you may fall asleep. Each of us needs to find for ourselves a balance between our effort and a sense of ease."
www.intrex.net/chzg/posture.htm
That is, perhaps more intensive concentration, control and effort will bring more of the rigidity, but zazen tends to emphasize a kind of a middle way. For instance, instead of forcibly pushing arising thoughts away, in zazen your often instructed to just passively let the thoughts arise and they'll eventually go away.
anpi
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@Modes said
"I wonder if all the Buddhas and Patriarhs were sitting all their lives on a cushion too."
Look at the pictures of Buddha seated in a lotus. Yes, you'll routinely see the cushion.
"Jumping comes from pranayama practice, so far I been reading."
It's actually a consequence of rising kundalini, and, you're right, most often related in the literature to pranayama; but that's a consequence of the kundalini shifts resulting from that practice. I'd have to say that mine came more from asana than pranayama but, in truth, it was something of a mix.
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thnx for the feedback, ya now when i look back i was doin it all wrong lol, well mabye not all but the fundementals, ok mabye so. ya i was experiencing with my pelvis in the mirror last night trying to get a good feal of the right position, b/c what i had a problem of doing whas stretching it too far as to create the little arch in the bottom of my back, but what i have just found from trying to straighten my back last night was just to push the pelvis forward a little, not much, kinda just enough to tighten your butt muscles lol, then lean back a little in to it with my head straight and looking forward, and it wasnt realy hard to do it, but mabye ile find out its harder to keep the posture lol, but in the mirror my spine looked pretty straight.
so i guess all that is AC's term "Braced" lol
anpi: thnx for the link, i never knew about the jaw and lips and stuff, just the little things, great link! oh and about the lying down one, where it saise to bend your knees so your feet are flat on the floor to straighten your spine, how much do you bend them?
i think this will work for me, but how is it that alot of people get good results and not have correct posture? I know some people that realy know there s**t and they just do what is comfortable to them, i just think they have much better concentration then i do lol
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@Alias55A said
"anpi: thnx for the link, i never knew about the jaw and lips and stuff, just the little things, great link! oh and about the lying down one, where it saise to bend your knees so your feet are flat on the floor to straighten your spine, how much do you bend them?"
Sorry, I don't know. I had practiced to sit in the full lotus before I even took any courses, just from books... and I didn't use a cushion back then. So I wouldn't ask me about the specifics.
However, when a guy on the zen center checked my posture, he said it's a good one."i think this will work for me, but how is it that alot of people get good results and not have correct posture? I know some people that realy know there s**t and they just do what is comfortable to them, i just think they have much better concentration then i do lol"
Basically, you don't need to have a posture that's exactly by the book to have results. Some people, especially in the magick circles, think that any posture is good as long as it's comfortable, other people are very specific about details such as where you put your lips, etc. I think I'm somewhere in the middle about this.
When you advance with your meditation practices, it may be that you spend at times very long hours in the asana, I mean perhaps some hours per day. I think it's ridiculous to do this in the Ibis or Thunderbolt asana as shown by Crowley, if only because it can be harmful to your body.
The hard asanas, such as the full lotus, will often come comfortable with practice. For instance, I can sit in a full lotus with the legs in one position for 45 minutes without a slightest problems. However, if I switch the legs in a reverse or mirror position, I can do it comfortably only for about five minutes. It's only because I've always been practicing in the first way. I'm not sure if it's only about how stretchy your muscles are, perhaps part of it is that your nervous system gets used to certain positions, in the same way as for many or most people, crossing hands in one way feels natural but the other way it's uncomfortable.
One reason that I try to do it in the traditional way instead of using just what feels comfortable right now is that I admit right away that I don't understand all the details about the nervous system, the body, etc. People have been using the traditional postures with good results or at least without harming themselves too much for hundreds of years, so I might as well go with their rules.
Ultimately, you're supposed to find a posture that is so stable, symmetrical and comfortable that it won't bother your mind and won't cause damage to your body. You can get results with different types of postures, but certain postures may have benefits; for instance, it's perhaps harder to fall asleep in a full lotus than lying on the floor.
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93
"how is it that alot of people get good results and not have correct posture? I know some people that realy know there s**t and they just do what is comfortable to them, i just think they have much better concentration then i do"
In the vipassana meditation retreats I've done (www.dhamma.org/) almost always, around the sixth or seventh day, the retreat master usually starts slipping away from the upright position, and has actually went so far into the experience that observance of the posture becomes secondary. He of she is so deep that it doesn't matter anymore. Mind you, I think this factor depends on what kind of meditation one is performing (this might not hold for pranayama or any other form that explicitly raises the Kundalini). But at the get go, getting into the correct posture can really bring your practice to new heights.
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93
not too long ago, i did the lbrp and stuff my sleeping pillow with another one, feals more comfortable when i sit lol, i got into the full lotus position, with my back straight, lips closed, jaw and teeth up, tongue on roof of mouth, and hands on my heals overlapping each other with thumbs barely touching, head looking forward and straight.wasnt too bad, my lower stomach muscles and lower back muscles ace a little, nothing serious, i was in the position for like 5 mins, lots of throbbing though and twitching big time, but as i tried to concentrate and relax through it i started getting a little hot, and started sweating.
i did feel a new sense i get per se, like like usual i guess you could say mental senses feeling energy that way, i felt like emotional energy? along my spine, head, and around my base chakra and legs, even though my base chakra is a bit fucked up at the moment, it was different though, i did feeling a difference in the spine.
Then i got into (burmese?) posture with legs in front of each other and palsm up on knees, and did the middle pillar, and again, i experienced that wird emotional energy again, but slightly different, more white or lighty? but i got a good result of feeling it empowering the points in my body except for my base chakra, still messed up, good results though.but thank you so much for the tips guys, i think it is starting to pay off already, (b/c honeslty i havent had any luck with the middle pillar and feeling anything).
"In the vipassana meditation retreats I've done (www.dhamma.org) almost always, around the sixth or seventh day, the retreat master usually starts slipping away from the upright position, and has actually went so far into the experience that observance of the posture becomes secondary. He of she is so deep that it doesn't matter anymore. Mind you, I think this factor depends on what kind of meditation one is performing (this might not hold for pranayama or any other form that explicitly raises the Kundalini). But at the get go, getting into the correct posture can really bring your practice to new heights.
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ya i have to check that out, souds interesting