Full Lotus Posture
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ok, i usually do the corpse pos because it is more comfortable to me, but since i joined this zen meditation class to help me, they sit in chairs and not lay down so i figure i might as well get use to a sitting posture so ive chose full lotus which i have done before and am flexible enough.
now heres the problems im having, i try to keep my back straight, and it bothers the bottom backs muscles a bit and im 20? so i shouldnt be getting problems so early, and also my left shoulder starts to ace a bit, and trying to keep my back straight puts a strain on my breathing, and i dont think i should have to strain to breath lol, and my left arm will start to go numb after a bit, but i breath better if i slowch, but i dont slowch b/c i heard when the kunendali raises and can be painfull.
any tips? insight, is the position not right fore me? or amd i doing it wrong, also i get the same pains and strains in the god position
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also this morning after doing the lbrp and meditating in lotus position, my head feels like ive been hanging up side down for a bit and it feels stuffed, blank, but stuffed. and i still feel a bit of a strain in my gut and on my lower sides
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I'm guessing you're making the most common mistake with that posture: You're trying to sit flat on the floor.
You need (by experimentation) to find a cushion the right hight for you. Your butt needs to be several inches higher than where your legs rest.
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lol, ya i just read that in yoga for dummies lmao, but it saise your butt and knees need to make a stable tripod, and to push your lower back in, also i think i need to put my feet higher up to the hip bone, not just resting on my thighs which ive been doing, i guess i should go and find that pillow lol.
thnx though.what about the pains in the god position?
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Pains in god-posture are usually a result of a bad chair.
Be sure the chair is hard, simple, with a back at right angles to the seat. Nothing soft and nothing allowing for slouching. Nothing with arms. Sit all the way back. Be sure your feet are flat on the floor.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"I'm guessing you're making the most common mistake with that posture: You're trying to sit flat on the floor.
You need (by experimentation) to find a cushion the right hight for you. Your butt needs to be several inches higher than where your legs rest."
Ah, wow, I've been having the same exact problem... thank you.
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Jim hit the nail on the head.
I used to have the same problem until I went for a yoga class with a fellow Thelemite who spent a year in an ashram. He introduced me to the "yoga cushion" which is much harder than the average pillow or cushion, usually filled with buckweat or Kapok so that it props the buttocks up several inches off the floor. (but it's still wonderfully comfortable)
Look here to get an idea. I'm sure you could make one or improvise with some existing cushions and some buckwheat or something, or jsut buy one if you can find the right shop. The one I have which I would recommend is crescent shaped but tapers towards the points of the crescent so as to allow for a gradual gradient from the buttocks to the feet - not unlike the "cosmic meditation cushion on the site below":
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Thought I'd inquire: I was told by a chiropractor that most people -myself included- have a slight degree of scoliosis; apparently a "perfect" spine is rare indeed. Looking at yoga books, I often see the swami-types with less-than-impressive straightness of the back, so I'm hoping this is not a hindrance to meditation success, setting one back a lifetime or two.
I ask this in the thread because I'm paranoid that my back itself is to blame, rather than posture/experience level, etc.
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Obviously, your back should not be stick straight. I think that if you're attempting to eliminate the natural curves in your back by sitting up as straight as possible, you may be creating unnecessary strain. When I think of proper posture, I think of "good structure" instead of "straightness". Good structure means you're upright with as little muscular usage as possible. Think of your back's posture when you're casually walking down the street, or standing in a relaxed manner, with your head up and your eyes looking forward.
I think it's understandable that you might be having strange pains when beginning asana postures. Our culture's ergonomics in relation to the back are fucking horrible. I can't remember the numbers, but some ridiculously massive percentage (80%??) of people in North America experience chronic back pain. You probably have over and underdeveloped back muscles in certain areas due to shitty sitting habits and so on.
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i appreciate everyones insight, i guess i better find the right chair and cushion to sit on, also i have one last question, in asana AC saise to tense all of your muscles, like if you were about to pounce in suprise!, do i just kinda bring about that feeling or is there a certain way to do it? ive tried tensing all my muscles at once, i dont think its literally possible lol, but i may be wrong
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@Alias55A said
"i appreciate everyones insight, i guess i better find the right chair and cushion to sit on, also i have one last question, in asana AC saise to tense all of your muscles, like if you were about to pounce in suprise!, do i just kinda bring about that feeling or is there a certain way to do it? ive tried tensing all my muscles at once, i dont think its literally possible lol, but i may be wrong"
He later clarified that "braced" was a better word. It's not like you're doing whole-body isometrics.
I understand his difficulty in finding the right word. I really didn't understand what he meant until I hit the automatic rigidity stage. I'm not sure I could improve on Crowley's stumbling with language. The main idea is that the body relaxes into being firmly held against moving.
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"He later clarified that "braced" was a better word"
I do remember reading that now
"The main idea is that the body relaxes into being firmly held against moving."
Ya the only thing i can think of is like sometimes when i want to suprise and jump out at someone, ile get imo like a good stable posture for lashing out at a good speed, or mabye like in martial arts, how they teach you to hold good stances so you cant be pushed over, like the horse stance for instance, but i dont think it creates such a feeling as pouncing or bracing wich i think would be similar.
but what do you think jim? is it more like the feeling before prancing where your muscles are relaxed but tense with that antisipation pushing forward?
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Most common error in asana is that the pelvis area is not moved down i.e. is not streched enough to be always down. That's why someone invented to put a pillow and sit on it. My yoga teacher told me not to use a pillow because if you do and it's comfy you will get the manipura excited and that blocks energy flow. It is easy to reason that if you use a pillow you don't stretch the pelvis region and that leaves you doing asana badly. I believe that if the pelvis region is fixed there should be no problem sitting without a pillow.
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I am still curious as to the consensus here about the importance of correct posture, positions, straightness of the spine and etc. Zazen instruction seems to be particularly nitpicky about all of this, sometimes to the point of saying that "to take the correct posture is itself zazen" and so on.
It seems that the practice of motionlessness is geared entirely to obtain "body off", and if you can do that then it doesn't much matter whether you are in full lotus, or in a recliner or in a flotation tank when it happens. My experience has been that trying to take the "correct" position was frustrating and unfruitful, but settling into an obviously "incorrect" position that was both stable and comfortable immediately started to produce results. Am I missing something here?
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93
In meditation correct posture and straightness of the spine is very important. Yes, after generations of sitting in chairs instead of cross-legged on the floor like our eastern brethren, our bodies are not geared to be comfortable in this position. Yes, when attempting to straighten the spine it can be very frustrating and there is certainly a justification that occurs in beginning of "well I felt I was getting much deeper in my meditation when i was just seated comfortably, even though I was slightly slouched over. I'm not even focusing on my breath anymore now that I'm trying to straighten my spine so is this effort really beneficial to my meditation?" and so on. However, when you do train your body to sit with back completely straight, a certain change occurs within. You can physically feel things line up from your hips to your head, the path between muladhara and sarashara being aligned and the energy somewhat unshackled and free. There is an 'aha' moment that occurs where you can physically feel why a straight spine is necessary. As you said 'to take correct posture is itself zazen' and I would agree because it is enough to throw you in a trance state.
Here's a tip: stand up against a wall to judge how straight your back is. What you will notice is that there is a gap between your lower back and the wall. If you suck your stomach in and up that gap will disappear and your spine will become perfectly straight. Now do this while seated in lotus posture. What you will find is the precarious and somewhat shaky foundation upon which you sit becomes strong and unmovable, and you find yourself sitting much taller than before.
I'm not claiming that this is easy.
93 93/93
A.
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I've been taking Zazen classes in our local Zen center for about a year and a half. It's not that everyone there can do the full lotus posture. Some people use a kind of a meditation stool as their aid. Some do half lotus. Some sit in a posture similar to the Dragon asana. However, many think that if you can do the full lotus, then it's one of the most stable and best postures. I can do the full lotus and it has come to the point where my body doesn't tire at all even if I sit longer periods.
And yes, I bought bought a rigid zafu cushion in the Zen center that I sit on in my lotus posture.
About Crowley's mention of the body getting rigid and even jumping around, I haven't experienced that with zazen and I don't see other people jumping around either. I'm not sure, but it could be that it's because of somewhat different emphasis on what you do with your mind. For instance, in Zazen you often try to get in a very relaxed yet alert state of mind, mind held at the bottom of the belly ("hara"), and not to force the mind or body overtly. Perhaps more rigid practices, such as forcibly concentring on one object, can bring more of the stiffness or even jumping around? I'm not sure, but if you're trying to do Zazen, you're not usually supposed to try to get your body very rigid.
If you have problems such as strains on your body, perhaps you could try stretching, some yoga or whatever. But go slowly about it and don't try to strain too much, otherwise you could do some serious damage to your body. I heard of one guy who got quite serious problems with his knees apparently from trying too hard with the full lotus.
Edit: I just stumbled to this:
"Before I go on, I would like to give a caution. The instructions I will be giving can be followed to two extremes. One extreme is to not follow the instruction enough, to be too lax which leads to sloppiness, dullness, drowsiness, or sleepiness. The other extreme is placing too much effort into your posture which will produce tension or a rigid body and mind.
Two characteristics of zazen are being alert yet relaxed. This is an intentional activity and there should be some effort or energy in zazen, but not too much effort. If there is too much effort, again, you will become tense, and your zazen practice can become a strain. While sitting, you should be relaxed but awake. If you become too relaxed, your mind will wander in its usual way or you may fall asleep. Each of us needs to find for ourselves a balance between our effort and a sense of ease."
www.intrex.net/chzg/posture.htm
That is, perhaps more intensive concentration, control and effort will bring more of the rigidity, but zazen tends to emphasize a kind of a middle way. For instance, instead of forcibly pushing arising thoughts away, in zazen your often instructed to just passively let the thoughts arise and they'll eventually go away.
anpi
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@Modes said
"I wonder if all the Buddhas and Patriarhs were sitting all their lives on a cushion too."
Look at the pictures of Buddha seated in a lotus. Yes, you'll routinely see the cushion.
"Jumping comes from pranayama practice, so far I been reading."
It's actually a consequence of rising kundalini, and, you're right, most often related in the literature to pranayama; but that's a consequence of the kundalini shifts resulting from that practice. I'd have to say that mine came more from asana than pranayama but, in truth, it was something of a mix.
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thnx for the feedback, ya now when i look back i was doin it all wrong lol, well mabye not all but the fundementals, ok mabye so. ya i was experiencing with my pelvis in the mirror last night trying to get a good feal of the right position, b/c what i had a problem of doing whas stretching it too far as to create the little arch in the bottom of my back, but what i have just found from trying to straighten my back last night was just to push the pelvis forward a little, not much, kinda just enough to tighten your butt muscles lol, then lean back a little in to it with my head straight and looking forward, and it wasnt realy hard to do it, but mabye ile find out its harder to keep the posture lol, but in the mirror my spine looked pretty straight.
so i guess all that is AC's term "Braced" lol
anpi: thnx for the link, i never knew about the jaw and lips and stuff, just the little things, great link! oh and about the lying down one, where it saise to bend your knees so your feet are flat on the floor to straighten your spine, how much do you bend them?
i think this will work for me, but how is it that alot of people get good results and not have correct posture? I know some people that realy know there s**t and they just do what is comfortable to them, i just think they have much better concentration then i do lol